Is Archimonde really dead?

[Cheapnecrolyte]

The forces of Life and Death hold sway over every living thing in the physical universe. The energies of Life, known commonly as nature magic promote growth and renewal in all things. Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion.
--Chronicle

No mention of time or chronomantic magic anywhere in Chronicle.

And no mention of demons existing inside impenetrable barriers either.

yet provide none to back up your fanon.

I don't have fanon, you do.

Logical inconsistency. Growth isn't part of necromantic magic. Growth is part of its opposite, nature magic.

Nope. Necromantic magic is a part of life because without life, there is no death.

They are immune to the natural effects of necromantic magic.

This is your head canon. Provide a source outright stating that they're immune to the effects of necromantic magic along with another canon source specifically stating that the effects of necromantic magic are "natural".

Demons are a form of life.

A form of life is not the same as life itself.

The only standouts are abyssals and infernals: "mindless amalgamations of matter and fel energy, created by more powerful and intelligent demons."

You don't get to cherry pick which demons are alive and which ones aren't without paying a price bub. It's either demons are alive or they're not. It's either everything has a life as you've claimed or not everything does.

I don't have to explain it.

Oh yes you do, if you actually want to come to an agreement.

A world-soul is not the same as the total of souls living on a world.

Irrelevant because my point isn't that a world-soul is the same as the total of souls living on a world. My point is that you're claiming that everything is alive or has a life, then denying that each world has a life or spirit/soul.

They are trapped between life and death. They straddle life and death.

The undead don't have life per Chronicle. Any source stating undead have life, if there is any, was retconed

Red herring fallacy.

Nope.

Demons are living beings and they get reborn when they don't die in a specific way.

According to who? You? You'd claim demons have the life-consuming fel magic inside them, then deny that they don't have life just because Blizzard states so. You have no intention of being reasonable or coming to an agreement. You're basically a nut who is incapable of thinking for yourself. Now, since you believe demons are eventually reborn after they die, you must believe that demons experience birth. Please tell me, who do you believe gave birth to the Pit Lords? Elune?

Rosenberg's contract with Blizzard had long expired and most of his work had been deemed non-canon.

Where's you canon source stating that most of his work had been deemed non-canon?

Chronicle was published to fix the mistakes.

Oh, so God-King Chris Metzen made a mistake when he stated that fel energy is essentially death energy? Do you have any canon source to back up your harebrained theory that one of the creators of WoW lore made a mistake?

I'm well aware of the mistakes and inconsistencies Blizzard has made

This isn't about you ranting about Blizzard's disagreeing with you and I'm not entirely convinced that you are well aware of the mistakes and inconsistencies Blizzard has made. One mistake Blizzard has made is treating demons as if they're alive despite being astral entities with highly destructive energies that consume souls (a.k.a life essences per canon)

this isn't a discussion about Blizzard's mistakes.

Yes it is.

This is you ranting about Blizzard disagreeing with you.

Nope. It's about Blizzard's mistakes and inconsistencies. Now, tell me how imps are alive when they have a life-consuming fire. I get that you're stating demons are alive because Blizzard claims demons are alive, but Blizzard is the one who established that imps have a fire that burns hotter than normal fire and consume souls - not me. If demons are alive, what you need to do to convince me that they are is explain Blizzard's nonsense - something you're incapable of doing. So you've lost. I won. End of the story. Period.

[Krazzorx]

From a game perspective, if they are serious about this possibly being it for the Legion, it would make sense he's dead dead because we basically have 2-3 patches left before the Legion dies. (3rd being possibility of something in 7.2.5)

[Aquamonkey]

And no mention of demons existing inside impenetrable barriers either.

Red herring fallacy and straw man.

I don't have fanon, you do.

Nothing you've presented is consistent with canon and you provide no sources.

Nope. Necromantic magic is a part of life because without life, there is no death.

The forces of Life and Death hold sway over every living thing in the physical universe. The energies of Life, known commonly as nature magic promote growth and renewal in all things. Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion.
--Chronicle

This is your head canon. Provide a source specifically stating that they're immune to the effects of necromantic magic and provide a canon source specifically stating that the effects of necromantic magic are "natural".

What, then, does the term immortality mean in Warcraft? Immortal creatures essentially stop aging when they reach adulthood, and thus, they cannot die merely from old age. (WC Encyclopedia)

The forces of Life and Death hold sway over every living thing in the physical universe. The energies of Life, known commonly as nature magic promote growth and renewal in all things. Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion.
--Chronicle

Necromantic magic is a natural part of the physical universe which counterbalances Life. It is what causes people to die from old age, which immortals are not subject to.

A form of life is not the same as life itself.

Life arose in the Twisting Nether. Those creatures are called demons.

You don't get to cherry pick which demons are alive and which ones aren't bub. It's either demons are alive or they're not. It's either everything has a life as you've claimed or not.

Straw man. I didn't cherry pick abyssals and infernals as exceptions. Chronicle states they are demons, they are alive. What makes them standout is that they are monstrous, mindless amalgamations of matter and fel energy.

Oh yes you do, if you actually want to come to an agreement.

I really don't. Your dispute is with Blizzard.

Irrelevant because my point isn't that a world-soul is the same as the total of souls living on a world. My point is that you're claiming that everything is alive or has a life, then denying that each world has a life or spirit/soul.

Everything is alive. That is not my claim, that is what the canon materials state. You are conflating the elements of the worlds being alive with an actual titanic world-soul.

The undead don't have life per Chronicle. Any source stating undead have life, if there is any, was retconed.

They are trapped between life and death.

According to who? You? You'd claim demons have the life-consuming fel magic inside them, then deny that they don't have life just because Blizzard states so. You have no intention of being reasonable or coming to an agreement. You're basically a nut who is incapable of thinking for yourself.

Just as in the Great Dark Beyond, life had also arisen in the Twisting Nether. The creatures that emerged from this turbulent realm were known as demons.
--Chronicle

You're the one claiming they don't have life.

Where's you canon source stating that most of his work had been deemed non-canon?

Aaron Rosenberg's Warcraft publications:

• Lands of Mystery. RPG supplement. July 2006.
• Alliance Players Guide. RPG supplement. August 2006.
• World of Warcraft: Tides of Darkness. August 2007.
• World of Warcraft: Beyond the Dark Portal. June 2008.

RPG is non-canon by default. (MickyNeilson)

My mistake. Half of his work has been deemed non-canon.

Oh, so God-King Chris Metzen made a mistake when he stated that fel energy is essentially death energy? Do you have any canon source to back up your harebrained theory?

Up to this point I've taken you at your word, but where is the citation?

It's not my harebrained theory. It's explicit in Chronicle.

This isn't about you ranting about Blizzard's disagreeing with you and I'm not entirely convinced that you are well aware of the mistakes and inconsistencies Blizzard has made.

Blizzard doesn't disagree with me. I cite what they've written.

Yes it is.

Nope. It's about Blizzard's mistakes and inconsistencies.

Nope. You demand that your fanon about the Warcraft universe is correct despite what Blizzard explicitly states. If you want to point out the inconsistencies, then do so. Point to the contradictory sources. Don't present your fanon as fact while ignoring canonical sources. This is the closest you've actually come to doing that:

One mistake Blizzard has made is treating demons as if they're alive despite being astral entities with highly destructive energies that consuming souls (a.k.a life essences per canon)

Demons were originally literal demons from Hell. Which is also where the orcs came from. So they were physical creatures originally. But yes, even Chronicle indicates that they are incorporeal by nature until they manifest in a corporeal form in the physical universe. But being an ethereal realm doesn't mean its denizens aren't alive. The Emerald Dream is also an ethereal realm full of life.

Also, many things aren't mistakes. They're intentional changes.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Red herring fallacy and straw man.

Nope

Nothing you've presented is consistent with canon and you provide no sources.

Actually, I did provide sources last page

Necromantic magic is a natural part of the physical universe which counterbalances Life.

Ohhhhh, so necromantic magic is a natural part of the physical universe? Well guess what boo boo? It's also a natural part of the Twisting Nether too. If demons exist in a place where there is life, they exist in a place where there is also death and, by extension, necromantic energy. Your piss-poor attempt to convince me that demons are immune to death by implying that they're merely living beings that can die is piss-poor.

It is what causes people to die from old age, which immortals are not subject to.

Immortals are not subject to old age? They must exist in some kind of anti-aging bubble that prevents time from affecting them.

Life arose in the Twisting Nether.

Did it now? If it did, a force to counter that life must have arose in the Twisting Nether as well. After all, it's common sense to anyone with a functioning brain that there is no life if there is no death. If there is no life, living beings wouldn't even exist and so there wouldn't be any being that dies.

I didn't cherry pick abyssals and infernals as exceptions. Chronicle states they are demons, they are alive. What makes them standout is that they are monstrous, mindless amalgamations of matter and fel energy.

Ohhhh boy. Your brand of stupid never ceases to amaze me. Infernals are alive even though they're mindless? Beautiful logic. I'm guessing their souls are living too even though they would be - or are - technically undead right?

I really don't.

Oh yes you do.

Everything is alive.

Including undead?

That is not my claim, that is what the canon materials state.

You've got it twisted. It is your claim because that's what the canon materials state.

You are conflating the elements of the worlds being alive with an actual titanic world-soul.

Don't tell me I'm conflating things when I'm not. I'm not talking about the living beings that exist in a world or the elements of a world, the building blocks that the titans are composed of by the way. I'm talking about the world itself. Canon materials state that EVERYTHING IS ALIVE, as you've stated yourself. With your very own claim, the very material that you're referencing, every world has life or a spirit. With the shamanic belief itself, all worlds are living worlds - worlds that the titans awoke as.

They are trapped between life and death.

They still don't have life per the Chronicle, the very source you're referring to so religiously. You may not like it, but that's how it is:

“The undead are former mortals who have died and become trapped between life and death. These tragic beings derive power from the necromantic energies that pervade the universe. Most undead are driven by vengeance and hatred to destroy the one thing that they can never have again: life.”

Excerpt From: Entertainment, Blizzard. “World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1.” Dark Horse Books, 2016-03-15. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

You're the one claiming they don't have life.

And for good reason. They're from an astral dimension that the most unstable energies coalesced into, exist outside the universe where actual life and death originates, have life/soul-consuming energies, and are lacking the functions of an actual living being that dies (mortal).

My mistake.

Yes it is.

Half of his work has been deemed non-canon.

Irrelevant. Some of his work is still canon.

Up to this point I've taken you at your word, but where is the citation?

Look it up for yourself boo boo, you can locate the link to the video where Metzen describes fel energy as essentially death energy at WoWpedia unless a user named Aquamonkey took out the link.

Blizzard doesn't disagree with me.

Fallacious argument from a nut. God-King Metzen disagrees with you.

I cite what they've written.

Good for you. So do I, sometimes.

Nope. You demand that your fanon about the Warcraft universe is correct despite what Blizzard explicitly states.

Where's your canon source stating that I'm doing that? Rainforest's story isn't named World of Aquamonkey. You don't decide what I'm doing or what's my intention.

If you want to point out the inconsistencies, then do so.

Okay

Don't present your fanon as fact while ignoring canonical sources.

Then don't present your canon as fact while ignoring canonical sources mr. demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon described as demonic because some seemingly retarded Lore Historian claims demons aren't the source of the fel magic. Look you poor soul, Sean Copeland is not the author of World of Warcraft. His job isn't to deny that warlocks harness their power from the Nether or deny that demons are the source of an energy canon describes as demonic. His job isn't to retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons and demonic powers are from.

You're a warped sicko with the warped belief that Sean, as a Historian, is canon. If Sean is canon, warlocks are non-canon since he denied the fundamental aspect of the class.

Demons were originally literal demons from Hell. Which is also where the orcs came from. So they were physical creatures originally. But yes, even Chronicle indicates that they are incorporeal by nature until they manifest in a corporeal form in the physical universe. But being an ethereal realm doesn't mean its denizens aren't alive. The Emerald Dream is also an ethereal realm full of life.

The Emerald Dream being an ethereal realm full of life is irrelevant because the Twisting Nether, the place where the subject of most of this discussion exists, doesn't represent the same thing as the Dream. It does not represent life. It represents an astral dimension that is parallel to the living universe known as the Great Dark Beyond. As an astral dimension that the most unstable energies into, it would - or does - not have any physical borders or boundaries. It would be - or is - a formless, non-physical place and claiming that the physical can exist inside the non-physical is akin to claiming that a rock can exist inside a ghost, an undead entity that is stated to roam in-between the trackless wastes of the Nether and the physical universe. Yet despite all of this...despite the fact that demons would not be - or aren't - physical beings if they're from the Nether, we have Matt Burns claiming that he thinks there are physical stuff in the Nether and warped saps like you presenting his personal belief as fact.

Infracted.

[Aquamonkey]

Actually, I did provide sources last page

Nearly all of your claims go uncited.

Ohhhhh, so necromantic magic is a natural part of the physical universe? Well guess what boo boo? It's also a natural part of the Twisting Nether too. If demons exist in a place where there is life, they exist in a place where there is also death and, by extension, necromantic energy. Your piss-poor attempt to convince me that demons are immune to death by implying that they're merely living beings that can die is piss-poor.

Did it now? If it did, a force to counter that life must have arose in the Twisting Nether as well. After all, it's common sense to anyone with a functioning brain that there is no life if there is no death. If there is no life, living beings wouldn't even exist and so there wouldn't be any being that dies.

Except demons are immortal and not subject to the natural necromantic decay. Whether or not necromantic magic naturally occurs in the Nether is unknown. If it does exist in the Nether, it doesn't affect demons, just like it doesn't affect immortals in the physical universe.

Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts...
--Chronicle

And their corporeal forms in the physical universe do die when they are killed. Their spirits go on, just like everything with a soul when their physical body dies. It's just that demon spirits go to the Nether and they can remanifest in the physical universe in a new corporeal form.

Mortal spirits can also come back to the physical universe in corporeal bodies, but they can't do it by themselves. They need someone to resurrect them fully or into an undead.

Immortals are not subject to old age? They must exist in some kind of anti-aging bubble that prevents time from affecting them.

Again with the fallacious red herring. Old age is caused by necromantic magic.

Ohhhh boy. Your brand of stupid never ceases to amaze me. Infernals are alive even though they're mindless? Beautiful logic. I'm guessing their souls are living too even though they would be - or are - technically undead right?

Ad hominem. Mindfulness is not a requisite of being alive.

Not all demons are sentient: various animals have been transformed into demons, for instance. (WC Encyclopedia)

Oh yes you do.

You've got it twisted. It is your claim because that's what the canon materials state.

Your dispute is with Blizzard and what they've written.

Including undead?

They still don't have life per the Chronicle, the very source you're referring to so religiously. You may not like it, but that's how it is:

Undead are trapped between life and death. They are neither and both. They move and are active, but their bodies are not biologically functional. Their souls are imperfectly attached to their bodies.

Don't tell me I'm conflating things when I'm not. I'm not talking about the living beings that exist in a world or the elements of a world, the building blocks that the titans are composed of by the way. I'm talking about the world itself. Canon materials state that EVERYTHING IS ALIVE, as you've stated yourself. With your very own claim, the very material that you're referencing, every world has life or a spirit. With the shamanic belief itself, all worlds are living worlds - worlds that the titans awoke as.

World-souls are sapient souls that only exist within the core of certain planets. The entire planet having life is different.

And for good reason. They're from an astral dimension that the most unstable energies coalesced into, exist outside the universe where actual life and death originates, have life/soul-consuming energies, and are lacking the functions of an actual living being that dies (mortal).

The actual biology of a demon's corporeal form is unknown. With the exceptions of infernals and abyssals, they have blood, hearts, and skeletons. However, having biological function isn't necessary for life in the Warcraft universe, the elements are alive.

All indications point to Life and Death not originating from the physical universe. For one, they're on the outside edge of the cosmology chart. For another, Light is living energy that existed before the physical universe.

Before life began, before even the cosmos took shape there was Light... and there was Void. Unfettered by the confines of time and space, the Light swelled across all existence in the form of a boundless prismatic sea. great torrents of living energy flitted through its mirrored depths...
--Chronicle

It is actually Light that gave rise to life within the physical universe.

The cataclysmic birth of the cosmos also flung shards of Light throughout reality. These shards suffused the matter of myriad worlds with the spark of life, giving rise to creatures of wondrous and terrible diversity.
--Chronicle

There is a difference between "Life" and "life".

Irrelevant. Some of his work is still canon.

But the details he wrote about how the Warcraft universe works is not. That basis for his opinion is not canon and outdated. It's like asking a dev's opinion who stopped working at Blizzard after Warcraft I.

Look it up for yourself boo boo, you can locate the link to the video where Metzen describes fel energy as essentially death energy at WoWpedia unless a user named Aquamonkey took out the link.

That's not how the burden of proof works.

Fallacious argument from a nut. God-King Metzen disagrees with you.

Cite the quote.

Where's your canon source stating that I'm doing that? Rainforest's story isn't named World of Aquamonkey. You don't decide what I'm doing or what's my intention.

Irrational red herring.

Then don't present your canon as fact while ignoring canonical sources mr. demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon described as demonic because some seemingly retarded Lore Historian claims demons aren't the source of the fel magic. Look you poor soul, Sean Copeland is not the author of World of Warcraft. His job isn't to deny that warlocks harness their power from the Nether or deny that demons are the source of an energy canon describes as demonic. His job isn't to retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons and demonic powers are from.

You're a warped sicko with the warped belief that Sean, as a Historian, is canon. If Sean is canon, warlocks are non-canon since he denied the fundamental aspect of the class.

Ad hominem. His job is to catalogue the established lore of the Warcraft universe. They've admitted that sometimes cdevs disregard the historians when writing new stories. The cdevs are at the cutting edge of what the lore is, even the unpublished bits that don't make it to the historians. The cdevs also have whatever prototype ideas floating around that never get published.

The Emerald Dream being an ethereal realm full of life is irrelevant because the Twisting Nether, the place where the subject of most of this discussion exists, doesn't represent the same thing as the Dream. It does not represent life. It represents an astral dimension that is parallel to the living universe known as the Great Dark Beyond. As an astral dimension that the most unstable energies into, it would - or does - not have any physical borders or boundaries. It would be - or is - a formless, non-physical place and claiming that the physical can exist inside the non-physical is akin to claiming that a rock can exist inside a ghost, an undead entity that is stated to roam in-between the trackless wastes of the Nether and the physical universe. Yet despite all of this...despite the fact that demons would not be - or aren't - physical beings if they're from the Nether, we have Matt Burns claiming that he thinks there are physical stuff in the Nether and warped saps like you presenting his personal belief as fact.

Ad hominem. The Great Dark Beyond doesn't have a physical border, it is infinite: "The Great Dark Beyond represents the physical universe. It is an infinite living realm..." But the Twisting Nether does actually have a boundary: "The forces of Light and Void bleed together at the boundaries of the Twisting Nether, engulfing the realm in perpetual strife."

But yes, the Nether is an astral dimension and as such shouldn't have matter. Otherwise there wouldn't be such repeated distinction about being separate from the physical universe. It should be a non-physical place.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

The entire planet having life is different.

Red herring. I already know an entire planet with living beings is different from worlds with actual life inside their core.

World-souls are sapient souls that only exist within the core of certain planets.

I know, but given YOUR belief that everything has a life, you'd probably claim that worlds have life at their core and are thus titans. After all, you did state that EVERTHING has a life. Heck, you'd probably claim that dead, demons worlds have life at their core and are thus titans. Perhaps you should be more careful with your wording or stop acting as if the elements are actual living beings. Maybe you should stop using the belief of the drug-indulging shaman to prove your points.

I'm not the one claiming that everything is alive here. I'm not the one claiming that everything is alive, including undead. You are. Stop trying to make it seem as if I'm the one presenting fallacious statements when you are.

Irrational red herring.

Again with the fallacious red herring.

Admitting that you're presenting irrational red herring? Good for you. That's the very first step to recovery.

demons are immortal and not subject to the natural necromantic decay.

So death knights are essentially useless against demons?

Whether or not necromantic magic naturally occurs in the Nether is unknown. If it does exist in the Nether, it doesn't affect demons, just like it doesn't affect immortals in the physical universe.

If it does exist in the Nether and doesn't affect demons, you need to explain HOW. I get that they're immortal, but being immortal doesn't mean they're immune to necromantic magic or any magic that "imitates" necromantic magic for that matter.

Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts...
--Chronicle

Are you even aware that you're presenting evidence that I can use against you or to support my argument? As your own source establishes: Death is an unavoidable force. Demons can't avoid it. No exceptions.

Old age is caused by necromantic magic.

Old age is ultimately caused by time, which necromantic magic is related to since necromantic magic is a force that can't actually work or exist without time. Necromantic magic causes physical deterioration and that process can't occur if time doesn't exist. As you've stated yourself:

Time doesn't do those things. It is either necromantic magic for physical deterioration, or nature magic for growth. Time just allows those processes to occur. Freeze time and both stop, as well as every other temporal experience.

Your dispute is with Blizzard and what they've written.

Source?

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem.

His job is to catalogue the established lore of the Warcraft universe. They've admitted that sometimes cdevs disregard the historians when writing new stories. The cdevs are at the cutting edge of what the lore is, even the unpublished bits that don't make it to the historians. The cdevs also have whatever prototype ideas floating around that never get published.

No it's not because you've treated Sean's statements about what is or what isn't true when regards to WoW lore as canon even when they're not. And FYI, it doesn't take communion with Dave, Metzen, or a team of people to understand and state something so simple to understand: Demonologists get their power from demons and, by extension, the place demons are from.

Sean denied that warlocks harness their power from the place demons are from, claiming that they get their power from destruction. And he denied that demons are the source of an energy Chris Metzen describes as demonic, stating that the nature of this magic is created from destroying something else. Ultimately, he denied that demonologists need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy and YOU treated his outrageous claims as if they're canon even though they were never canon - a fact that is relevant to my point here:

His job isn't to deny or retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons and demonic powers are from. Warlock magics are outright defined as demonic powers of entropy and destruction, which is a process - not a living thing. Warlock magics do not come from the living and if warlocks get their power from destruction, they get it from the destruction of demons because their power is demonic. So why? Why did Sean deny that demons are the source of their energy and deny that warlocks harness their power from the place demons are from? Does he believe that the dark magic of demons doesn't exist in the Nether? Or does he believe demons are ghosts or non-physical beings in the Nether that don't actually "exist"?

the Nether is an astral dimension and as such shouldn't have matter. Otherwise there wouldn't be such repeated distinction about being separate from the physical universe. It should be a non-physical place.

You're mistaken. If the Nether shouldn't have matter, why did "canon" Matt Burns claim that he thinks there are physical stuff in the Nether? Does he, like you, believe that the actual, real-life definition(s) of a term such as astral has no meaning because this is Warcraft and Blizzard can call demons "living" even though they're from an astral dimension without any consequence? If you or Matt Burns want me to stop calling warlocks necromancers or you want me to stop claiming demons are undead, YOU need to stop implying and ultimately claiming things like "the Nether is an astral dimension" and "the Nether is separate from the physical universe".

I'm of the belief that the Nether is non-physical and that demons are technically undead if they're from the Nether because they would be - or are - non-physical beings or ghosts that warlocks can give constructed bodies to. I'm also of the belief that you and Blizzard's employees are conflating astral spirits that are tethered to the Nether and can be given constructed bodies with constructs constructed with bodies and astral spirits tethered to the Nether. Although they may seem the same, there's a difference.

If a demon is both a body and spirit tethered to the Nether, to destroy a demon is to destroy a body and a spirit tethered to the Nether. If a demon is an astral spirit that is tethered to the Nether and can be given a constructed body, it can - and does - exist without a body and can be pulled back to the Nether. Now, instead of admitting that demons are astral, disembodied spirits (technically undead) tethered to the Nether, you are infering demons are alive based on Blizzard's pathetic attempt to convince me that warlocks aren't necromancers. Nothing more, nothing less.

And their corporeal forms in the physical universe do die when they are killed. Their spirits go on, just like everything with a soul when their physical body dies. It's just that demon spirits go to the Nether and they can remanifest in the physical universe in a new corporeal form.

This is your problem: You aren't treating demons as physical bodies that have spirits tethered to the Nether or Nether-tethered spirits that can have physical bodies. You're treating them as neither or conflating two things that seem so similar, you're confusing people.

Undead are trapped between life and death. They are neither and both. They move and are active, but their bodies are not biologically functional. Their souls are imperfectly attached to their bodies.

You wanted me to cite my sources and I presented canon information directly from the Chronicle to prove your harebrained theory that the undead have life is, well, harebrained.

Nearly all of your claims go uncited.

Aww they do? I feel so bad now. *sniffs*

Mindfulness is not a requisite of being alive.

And it's not a requisite of being dead either.

The actual biology of a demon's corporeal form is unknown. With the exceptions of infernals and abyssals, they have blood, hearts, and skeletons. However, having biological function isn't necessary for life in the Warcraft universe, the elements are alive.

If having biological function isn't necessary for life when regards to the Warcraft universe, what you need to do is explain how demons aren't undead even though they're from an astral dimension and wouldn't even have things such as blood, hearts, etc. What you need to do is explain how they aren't undead even though the undead seem more orderly than demons, have functions, and are alive (at least according to you).

Mortal spirits can also come back to the physical universe in corporeal bodies, but they can't do it by themselves. They need someone to resurrect them fully or into an undead.

Demons can't come to the physical universe in corporeal bodies. Who is summoning astral spirits to the physical universe and giving them corporeal bodies to inhabit? Warlocks?

No where does the Chronicle state that physical matter or flesh comes from the Nether, an astral dimension separate from the physical universe. Demons can't regenerate a corporeal form if they're from an astral or non-corporeal dimension because they never had a corporeal form to generate in the first place.

That's not how the burden of proof works.

Cite the quote.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uzFQ_n88k&t=10m58s

^Although this is a link to a video belonging to a person who doesn't work for Blizzard, the video clearly is a recording of Metzen talking and of other Blizzard-affiliated people. You can clearly hear God-King Chris Metzen himself describing fel energy as essentially death energy. So which one is it Aquamonkey? Did Chris Metzen make a mistake when he defined fel energy as essentially death energy or is Chris Metzen just a wishy washy writer whose Chronicle retcons fel energy being death energy (a necrotic power per the Chronicle)?

But the details he wrote about how the Warcraft universe works is not. That basis for his opinion is not canon and outdated. It's like asking a dev's opinion who stopped working at Blizzard after Warcraft I.

That's nice, but his canon works refer to the warlocks' magic as death magic. This isn't the RPG where warlocks can have necromantic abilities without being necromancers themselves.

It is actually Light that gave rise to life within the physical universe.

The cataclysmic birth of the cosmos also flung shards of Light throughout reality. These shards suffused the matter of myriad worlds with the spark of life, giving rise to creatures of wondrous and terrible diversity.
--Chronicle

No it didn't. If shards of Light gave rise to life by suffusing matter with the spark of life, the Light definitely didn't give rise to the existence of demons because they were formed as a result of the Light and Void energies that had bled together at the so-called borders of the Twisting Nether. Their existence (key word: existence) is totally different from the existence of living beings that originated in the physical universe.

The whole reason why undead are defined as former mortals is because mortals live and die and can become trapped between life and death. Your attempt to convince me that demons are alive is so pathetic and futile, you should just give up. Demons may not be dead or undead, but they're definitely not alive - not if they're immune to necromantic magic, a magic that causes physical deterioration. If an energy that naturally or inherently causes bodies to deteriorate can't affect demons, how can demons even die and become dead?

They don't die to death (or necromantic) magic - a magic that inherently causes their bodies to deteriorate. They can't actually die to fel magic - a demonic magic that they have. They don't die to aging or disease. They don't die to time. They can't die to a sword in a non-fel-saturated world. They can't die to time. They can't die to anything really.

There's like literally no hardcore evidence that a single demon has been erased from existence. Even entities of the void "exist" in a sense. If they don't, Sargeras is loco and the Burning Legion is the actual threat here.

There is a difference between "Life" and "life".

Yeah and there is a difference between life and existence, something you clearly don't understand. Demons are not from the living universe known as the Great Dark Beyond. They're from an entirely different realm of existence. Their existence is different from the living beings that are from the living universe.

[Michaelmc454]

Not gonna lie that was way to much to read so i didnt, but didnt a blue say that the events of mythic archimonde encounter actually happen? meaning we beat the snoo-snoo out of him in the nether?

[Combatbutler]

Not gonna lie that was way to much to read so i didnt, but didnt a blue say that the events of mythic archimonde encounter actually happen? meaning we beat the snoo-snoo out of him in the nether?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yat...outu.be&t=4m6s

[Michaelmc454]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yat...outu.be&t=4m6s

so he is either saying they will change the canon of having to kill demons in the nether to make them dead dead or change the canon that archi was beat up in the nether so therefore dead dead? SOOO many questions!!!!!

[Aquamonkey]

So death knights are essentially useless against demons?

Immortals are immune to the natural effects of necromantic magic. Magical attacks are something completely different.

If does exist in the Nether and doesn't affect demons, you need to explain HOW. I get that they're immortal, but being immortal doesn't mean they're immune to necromantic magic or any magic that "imitates" necromantic magic for that matter.

They are only immune to the natural necromantic decay.

Are you even aware that you're presenting evidence that I can use against you or to support my argument? As your own source establishes: Death is an unavoidable force. Demons can't avoid it. No exceptions.

It says unavoidable force for mortals. Immortals are not subject to natural necromantic decay. Demons are immortals.

This is your problem: You aren't treating demons as physical bodies that have spirits tethered to the Nether or Nether-tethered spirits that can have physical bodies. You're treating them as neither or conflating two things that seem so similar, you're confusing people.

No where does the Chronicle state that physical matter or flesh comes from the Nether, an astral dimension separate from the physical universe. Demons can't regenerate a corporeal form if they're from an astral or non-corporeal dimension because they never had a corporeal form to generate in the first place.

Their corporeal forms are how they manifest in the physical universe.

Old age is ultimately caused by time, which necromantic magic is related to since necromantic magic is a force that can't actually work without time, which is omnipresent.

This is a nonsensical argument. None of the cosmic forces can work without time, the exception possibly being Light. That doesn't make time related to them all.

I know, but given YOUR belief that everything has a life, you'd probably claim that worlds have life at their core and are thus titans. After all, you did state that EVERTHING has a life. Perhaps you should be more careful with your wording or stop acting as if the elements are actual living beings. Maybe you should stop using the belief of the drug-indulging shaman to prove your points.

Red herring. I never claimed all worlds being alive makes them titans. It is not a belief by shaman, it was revealed to them through the elements. It was confirmed by Micky Neilson.

No it's not because you've treated Sean's statements about what is or what isn't true when regards to WoW lore as canon even when they're not. And FYI, it doesn't take communion with Dave, Metzen, or a team of people to understand and state something so simple to understand: Demonologists get their power from demons and, by extension, the the place demons are from.

Sean denied that warlocks harness their power from the place demons are from, claiming that they get their power from destruction. And he denied that demons are the source of an energy Chris Metzen describes as demonic, stating that the nature of this magic is created from something else. Ultimately, he denied that demonologists need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy and YOU treated his outrageous claims as if they're canon even though they were never canon - a fact that is relevant to my point here:

His job isn't to deny or retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons and demonic powers are from. Warlock magics are outright defined as demonic powers of entropy and destruction, which is a process - not a living thing. Warlock magics do not come from the living and if warlocks get their power from destruction, they get it from the destruction of demons because their power is demonic. So why? Why did Sean deny that demons are the source of their energy and deny that warlocks harness their power from the place demons are from? Does he believe the dark magic of demons don't exist in the Nether? Or does he believe demons are ghosts or non-physical beings in the Nether that don't actually "exist"?

Well, I believe the answer to that question will be revealed here:

Fel magic can be created outside of the Nether.

You're mistaken. If the Nether shouldn't have matter, why did "canon" Matt Burns claim that he thinks there are physical stuff in the Nether? Does he, like you, believe that the actual, real-life definition(s) of a term such as astral has no meaning because this is Warcraft and Blizzard can call demons "living" even though they're from an astral dimension without any consequence? If you or Matt Burns want me to stop calling warlocks necromancers or you want me to stop claiming demons are undead, YOU need to stop implying and ultimately claiming things like "the Nether is an astral dimension" and "the Nether is separate from the physical universe".

Yes, the Nether should be non-physical. Everything outside of the physical universe should be non-physical, including Emerald Dream, Shadowlands, the Light, and the Void. But that doesn't mean creatures from non-physical realms aren't life. Again, the Emerald Dream is outside the physical universe, but is full of life.

But we've seen the Nether and there are physical things there. How things should be based on their descriptions don't match their actual representations.

I'm of the belief that the Nether is non-physical and that demons are technically undead if they're from the Nether because they would be - or are - non-physical beings or ghosts that warlocks can give constructed bodies to. I'm also of the belief that you and Blizzard's employees are conflating astral spirits that are tethered to the Nether and can be given constructed bodies with constructs constructed with bodies and astral spirits tethered to the Nether. Although they may seem the same, there's a difference.

Being an incorporeal spirit alone doesn't mean undead. There are living spirits within the Emerald Dream and the physical universe.

Demons can manifest their own corporeal form in the physical universe without the need of a warlock.

If a demon is both a body and spirit tethered to the Nether, to destroy a demon is to destroy a body and a spirit tethered to the Nether. If a demon is an astral spirit that is tethered to the Nether and can be given a constructed body, it can - and does - exist without a body and can be pulled back to the Nether. Now, instead of admitting that demons are astral, disembodied spirits (technically undead) tethered to the Nether, you are infering demons are alive based on Blizzard's pathetic attempt to convince me that warlocks aren't necromancers. Nothing more, nothing less.

Demon bodies aren't tethered to the Nether, only their spirits are.

Warlocks deal with souls and can use them for power, but as Muffinus said, they aren't using those souls to raise the dead.

Of course you use souls, you have soul shards. You dont use them to raise the dead though. (Muffinus)

That isn't to say they can't. It's just not something they usually do unless they become a necrolyte.

You wanted me to cite my sources and I presented canon information directly from the Chronicle to prove your harebrained theory that the undead have life is, well, harebrained.

Living and having life are not the same thing. The Light was "living energy" before life began.

If having biological function isn't necessary for life when regards to the Warcraft universe, what you need to do is explain how demons aren't undead even though they're from an astral dimension and wouldn't even have things such as blood, hearts, etc. What you need to do is explain how they aren't undead even though seem more orderly than demons, have functions, and are alive (at least according to you).

I don't have to explain it. Chronicle says they are life that arose in the Twisting Nether. There are other things that are life without biological functions.

Demons can't come to the physical universe in corporeal bodies. Who is summoning astral spirits to the physical universe and giving them corporeal bodies to inhabit? Warlocks?

Demons can and have come to the physical universe without being summoned by anyone. They can manifest in the physical universe themselves.

Before long, these bloodthirsty demons clawed their way into the physical universe...
--Chronicle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uzFQ_n88k&t=10m58s

^God-King Chris Metzen himself describes fel energy as essentially death energy. So which one is it Aquamonkey? Did Chris Metzen made a mistake when he defines fel energy as essentially death energy or is Chris Metzen a wishy washy writer?

Yes, Metzen is a "wishy washy" writer. Blizzard changed their minds, so what? Fel magic is not death magic. Essentially death energy is not the same as actually being death energy. Fel destroys life, leading to death, but it is not actually related to Death. The elements, Light, Void, and Arcane also cause death without actually being related to Death.

That's nice, but his canon works refer to the warlocks' magic as death magic. This isn't the RPG where warlocks can have necromantic abilities without being necromancers themselves, technically.

And his outdated opinion and explanation of that novel admitted that Blizzard went a different direction.

No it didn't. If shards of Light gave rise to life by suffusing matter with the spark of life, the Light definitely didn't give rise to the existence of demons because they were formed as a result of the Light and Void energies that had bled together at the so-called borders of the Twisting Nether. Their existence (key word: existence) is totally different from the existence of living beings that originated in the physical universe.

The whole reason why undead are defined as former mortals is because mortals live and die and can become trapped between life and death. Your attempt to convince me that demons are alive is so pathetic and futile, you should just give up. Demons may not be dead or undead, but they're definitely not alive.

Yes... as I stated and cited, Light gave rise to life within the physical universe. Chronicle explicitly states that demons are life. Clearly, not the same as life in the physical universe, but still life. Light and Void can both create life, it is their collision that resulted in the physical universe to begin with. Void lords created organic beings that live (Old Gods) with their Void energy. The demons are life that were born from the Twisting Nether where they bleed together.

So you have two forces that alone can create life and together have created life. IDK why you argue they can't create life within the Nether where they bleed together.

Yeah and there is a difference between life and existence, something you clearly don't understand. Demons are not from the living universe known as the Great Dark Beyond. They're from an entirely different realm of existence. They're existence is different from the living beings that are from the living universe.

It's true they are not from the living universe, but that doesn't make them not life. Yes, their existence is different from living beings from the living universe, but again that doesn't make them not life. Demons are explicitly life.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Metzen is a "wishy washy" writer.

Shame on you. He basically created WoW lore and if he stated fel energy is death energy, that's the way it is. Clearly there is a reason why he described fel energy as ESSENTIALLY death energy and clearly there is a reason why the company still referred to fel magic as death magic even after the Chronicle came out. As I've told you before my warped MMO-Champion poster, I'm not going to act like the dumb bimbo you want me to act like. I'm not just going to ignore that reason even if Metzen is a wishy washy writer. Fel energy, as a destructive force, still pushes things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Fel energy is still death energy and if you don't like it, your argument is with Blizzard - not me.

Immortals are immune to the natural effects of necromantic magic. Magical attacks are something completely different.

What's the difference between an attack with necromantic magic and necromantic magic causing death?

They are only immune to the natural necromantic decay.

Source.

It says unavoidable force for mortals.

That's a lie. It states Death is an unavoidable force. It doesn't directly or specifically state it's an unavoidable force just for mortals.

Immortals are not subject to natural necromantic decay.

Source

Demons are immortals.

Thanks for stating something I've already stated before.

None of the cosmic forces can work without time, the exception possibly being Light. That doesn't make time related to them all.

Actually, it does make them time related because time is omnipresent. It is a progress of instants that allows processes like changing, growing, and dying to occur.

I never claimed all worlds being alive makes them titans.

You claimed EVERYTHING IS ALIVE and so with your very own logic, even a dead world devoid of living beings have life.

It is not a belief by shaman, it was revealed to them through the elements.

The elements aren't actually living:

“Thrall himself was confused by that response. He was well aware that all things had a spirit. Even stones, which were not truly “living” beings; even fire, which was “speaking” in his head and heart. But he could make no sense of this.”

Excerpt From: Golden, Christie. “World of Warcraft: Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects.” Gallery Books, 2011. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

It was confirmed by Micky Neilson.

Micky Neilson drinks alcohol and is known to make a lot of mistakes.

Fel magic can be created outside of the Nether.

You need to provide a source other than Sean Copeland, who ultimately claimed that demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon has defined as demonic, the dark magic of demons. Also:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...20be%20created

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed; rather, it transforms from one form to another. For instance, chemical energy can be converted to kinetic energy in the explosion of a stick of dynamite. A consequence of the law of conservation of energy is that a perpetual motion machine of the first kind cannot exist.

https://twitter.com/davekosak/status/654345020619689984

The way I would describe it: Fel is chaotic energy. Warlocks convert life into fel, draining the victim as a source of power.

^Energy can't be created and after I asked Micky if life can be destroyed, he stated that it seems like just a change in energy. If anything, warlocks convert life into fel - a fact that is supported by the way Dave Kosak would describe it: Warlocks convert life into fel, draining the victim as a source of energy.

the Nether should be non-physical.

It is non-physical.

But we've seen the Nether and there are physical things there. How things should be based on their descriptions don't match their actual representations.

Just because "physical stuff" can "exist" in the Nether in-game doesn't mean it can exist in the Nether when regards to the actual lore. And the Illidan novel basically establishes that the Nether can be perceived in many different ways.

Being an incorporeal spirit alone doesn't mean undead.

Technically, it does.

There are living spirits within the Emerald Dream and the physical universe.

No they're not. If there is such a thing as a living spirit, you need to explain how a living spirit that is disembodied is different from an undead spirit that is disembodied.

Demon bodies aren't tethered to the Nether, only their spirits are.

Warlocks deal with souls and can use them for power, but as Muffinus said, they aren't using those souls to raise the dead.
[indent][blizzquote]Of course you use souls, you have soul shards. You dont use them to raise the dead though.

1) Souls can be described as undead

2) The fact that all warlocks may not raise the dead is irrelevant.

3) Warlocks do control souls. They harvest it, use it to tap into the Void and pull demons from the Nether, and they bind the souls of demons if demons aren't actual souls themselves despite being from the Nether

4) Jeremy Feasel isn't the author of World of Warcraft and everything he states doesn't always come directly from Metzen. Those that state it does are warped.

That isn't to say they can't. It's just not something they usually do unless they become a necrolyte.

They can't become necrolytes if they're already necrolytes.

I don't have to explain it.

Yes you do.

Chronicle says they are life that arose in the Twisting Nether. There are other things that are life without biological functions.

Yes, Metzen is a "wishy washy" writer. Blizzard changed their minds, so what? Fel magic is not death magic. Essentially death energy is not the same as actually being death energy. Fel destroys life, leading to death, but it is not actually related to Death.

It's not related to Death? Interesting theory because it's not supported by anything other than your headcanon.

And his outdated opinion and explanation of that novel admitted that Blizzard went a different direction.

It's not his opinion that the warlocks' magic is death magic. The warlocks' magic is death magic according to his novel and his novel is canon.

Chronicle explicitly states that demons are life.

No it doesn't. You're just twisting canon into headcanon then presenting that headcanon as fact. The Chronicle does not state that demons are life. It establishes that life arose in the Twisting Nether, but that doesn't mean demons are life. It could very well mean demons "have" life, something undead even have according to you.

IDK why you argue they can't create life within the Nether where they bleed together.

I'm not arguing. They can't create life within the Nether where they bleed together because the existence of demons =/= the life of living beings that die (mortals).

It's true they are not from the living universe, but that doesn't make them not life.

That doesn't make them not dead ROFLOL.

[Zandalariprelate]

so he is either saying they will change the canon of having to kill demons in the nether to make them dead dead or change the canon that archi was beat up in the nether so therefore dead dead? SOOO many questions!!!!!

The second one my friend, because they have that part of demons only die in the nether since burning crusade(ogrila daily say that) and since they left very ambiguous if archimonde die because he was wounded badly in the nether or his avatar in draenor was just beaten to death like mannoroth in the three war

[Aquamonkey]

Shame on you. He basically created WoW lore and if he stated fel energy is death energy, that's the way it is. Clearly there is a reason why he described fel energy as ESSENTIALLY death energy and clearly there is a reason why the company still referred to fel magic as death magic even after the Chronicle came out. As I've told you before my warped MMO-Champion poster, I'm not going to act like the dumb bimbo you want me to act like. I'm not just going to ignore that reason even if Metzen is a wishy washy writer. Fel energy, as a destructive force, still pushes things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Fel energy is still death energy and if you don't like it, your argument is with Blizzard - not me.

Warcraft lore has changed multiple times in the past 22 years.

• WC1 (1994): Warlocks used to be a clan. Their magic used to be channeled from the underworld, literal Hell, and was called arcane. They could sacrifice their bodies to summon a demon. Their magic wasn't related to souls or death. There was a clear distinction between Warlocks and Necrolytes.
• WC2 (1995): This changed to them only recently learning knowledge of the dead by communing with the spirits of the Twisting Nether. They learned to invoke the energies of those dark spirits. Warlocks became proto-Necrolytes, with full Necrolytes being the ones who could actually reanimate the dead. Gul'dan made a pact with Sargeras, who sent demons to aid him.
• WC3 (2002): This changed to Warlocks using the demonic power of entropy and destruction. This was separated from necromancy, Necromancers gaining their power by making a pact with death.
• WCRPG (2003): This changed to Warlocks being arcane spellcasters capable of controlling demonic companions. They had very few other abilities beyond summoning demons.
• Magic & Mayhem (2004): The term fel energy was added to describe demonic arcane, based on the blood of demons. This was not tied to any particular class. It was separate from necromancy.
• WoW (2004): This changed to Warlocks using some soul magic again.
• WoWRPG (2005): Fel was evil arcane that resides in demon blood. This is tied to arcanists, not tied to Warlocks (other than their fel companions). Arcanists can cast more powerful fel spells for a short time after drinking demon blood.
• BlizzCon (2005): Metzen said fel energy is demonic, essentially entropic, essentially death energy.
• WC Encyclopedia (2006): Demons can be created by infusing creatures with fel energy.
• Rise of the Horde (2006): Warlocks summon demons. They cast fire and shadow spells, drained life, and used curses of torment. They had no healing spells. Basically the same as in WoW minus soul magic. No mention of fel or demon blood being necessary to spellcasting.
• Tides of Darkness (2007): Warlocks different from necrolytes. Warlocks were reborn as Death Knights and imbued with the power of necrolytes.
• Dark Factions (2008): Fel was added to certain Warlock variants.
• Beyond the Dark Portal (2008): Warlocks wielded slow death magics in addition to other types. They could drain life to heal themselves.
• Blizzard (2011): RPG sourcebooks deemed non-canon. Details about fel energy's source, properties, and usage removed. Some semblance of various previous definitions still floating around.
• UVG (2013): Fel is a destructive form of magic and is carried by demons in the Burning Legion. Warlocks seek to understand darker, fel-based magics, including destructive spells. Warlocks are separate from Necromancy, which uses magic to raise and control the dead.
• Copeland (2014): Fel is within demons, but they aren't "the" source. The nature of this magic is created from destroying something else. "Burn life to create" kind of thing.
• Neilson (2014): Fel magic is its own category, not the same as Death.
• Feasel (2015): Warlocks use soul shards, but don't use them to raise the dead.
• Kosak (2015): Fel isn't death magic. It's the language of chaos. Arcane is the language of order. Opposite ends of the same spectrum.
• Kosak (2016): Fel is the primal force of chaos.
• Chronicle (2016): Fel is the manifestation of Disorder within the physical universe. It is fueled by drawing life from living beings.

After the decanonization of the RPG, fel was changed to be something not exclusive to demon blood. There has been a separation between fel and Death magics. Warlock magics weren't even death magics to begin with.

[Deleted]

Nope and I expect we shall see him sooner or later.

[Tripzzz]

Warcraft lore has changed multiple times in the past 22 years.


After the decanonization of the RPG, fel was changed to be something not exclusive to demon blood. There has been a separation between fel and Death magics. Warlock magics weren't even death magics to begin with.

The Eye of Killrogg(iconic warlock spell) is said to be a type of "death"(necromantic) magic. http://classic.battle.net/war2/units/ogre.shtml

[Soeroah]

They shouldn't have made mythic-only lore a thing, it just confuses the issue.

As far as I can tell, Archimonde is either dead or demoted below Gul'dan, given how Ion essentially called Gul'dan Kil'Jaeden's counterpart in the Nighthold raid during Blizzcon, which until then had been Archimonde's position in the Legion.

[Volendrung]

Well after reading that giant argument, I can only give my input here:

As far as the WCU is concerned: Immortality is simply being immune to the ravages of time and sickness. Demons use, presumably, fel energies to sustain themselves indefinitely, the night elves were sustained by the World Tree for a time, and necromantic energies keep the undead alive. And before you rebuttal with "they're no different than mortals who cheat death"... you're right. Mortals who can sustain their lives through whatever means have, in fact, achieved some level of immortality. This is only true if their means of cheating death could be kept up forever.

Your out-of-context definitions are not really relevant here. Here, inside the universe that Metzen made, that is the definition of immortality. Immortals can still be slain. Nothing in the WCU is, by your definition, immortal (except maybe the light and the void).

[Cheapnecrolyte]

After the decanonization of the RPG, fel was changed to be something not exclusive to demon blood. There has been a separation between fel and Death magics. Warlock magics weren't even death magics to begin with.

Flawed logic is flawed.

Warcraft lore has changed multiple times in the past 22 years.

When concerning the warlocks' lore, not really. They still get their power from the place demons are from.

Their magic used to be channeled from the underworld, literal Hell, and was called arcane.

Their magic was rooted in the underworld, the necromantic place where necromantic powers are from according to the Warcraft II manual. It also establishes that their power is arcane and that the undead were raised by arcane magiks, energies that are technically necromantic if it's from the realm of the dead and is used to raise the dead.

They could sacrifice their bodies to summon a demon.

They could sacrifice their bodies and basically become shades, undead beings, as if they're acolytes or necrolytes.

Their magic wasn't related to souls or death.

Their magic was from the realm of the dead, so it was related to death. You need to stop presenting lies as facts and do your research.

There was a clear distinction between Warlocks and Necrolytes.

Warlocks were always necrolytes. Blizzard just fooled you into believing they're not. They actually made demons appear as the necrolytes by establishing that warlocks sacrifice their bodies to become spirits that are then bonded to demons - bound spirits that then guide demons. They made demons appear as the binders of souls even though it's the warlock doing the summoning and binding.

[*]WC2 (1995): This changed to them only recently learning knowledge of the dead by communing with the spirits of the Twisting Nether.

The Twisting Nether is the underworld, the realm of the dead with pits were the magiks of the warlocks are rooted in.

They learned to invoke the energies of those dark spirits.

By channeling the energy of dark spirits from the Nether, they're channeling something from a place considered to be the realm of the dead - which is basically what the WI manual established. They channeled the fire and brimstone of hell. Even today, they're considered to be channelers - spellcasters that can be defined as those who speak for nonphysical beings. They essentially act as a soul conduit or fel totem for demons in the Nether.

Warlocks became proto-Necrolytes

Wrong. Warlocks are necrolytes.

full Necrolytes being the ones who could actually reanimate the dead.

Necrolytes aren't defined by the ability to raise and/or bind the bodies of the dead:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Necrolyte_(Warcraft_I)#Spells

The Necrolytes have close ties to the dark forces of Hell, and in consequence study the forbidden arts of the dead. They have gained the ability to bind the bodies of the dead to this domain, creating armies of soulless creatures. With no minds to speak of, they will disdain the use of weapons, seeking to rend the flesh of those they are directed to attack with their bare boned hands.[2]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft_II...Shadow_Council

In pursuit of furthering our magical resources, I opened a new school of magical discipline that became known as Necromancy. We began training young Warlocks in the arcane mysteries of life and death. Again, with tutelage from the Daemon Kil'jaeden, these Necrolytes delved into the dark arts, eventually gaining power enough to animate and control the bodies of the newly dead. Every victory - every success - left me with an emptiness I could not fill. I came to realize that the Shadow Council could serve my purposes only to an extent, and thus I would require even greater power should I wish to become the true harbinger of our destiny.

^Necrolytes gained the ability to raise and bind the bodies of the dead. They can - and do - exist without the ability to raise and bind the bodies of the dead. And even though warlocks weren't treated as necrolytes by the Warcraft I manual, they always had some connection to the realm of the dead.

This changed to Warlocks using the demonic power of entropy and destruction.

Their power was basically demonic powers of entropy and destruction since Warcraft I:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft:_O...manual#Warlock

If the energies of this world can be used for destruction, then the energies of the underworld could destroy Azeroth. It is this destructive power that the Orcish Warlocks use in their incantations and rituals. As the most powerful of the Orcish sects, these dark brethren of Hades go where none others dare in search of ultimate power. Their Towers hold the keys to unleashing the very essence of evil upon those they see as a threat to their devious plans. Spells that channel the fire and brimstone of hell through their bodies, or can summon forth great creatures - even daemons - are theirs to use

^Their destructive power is from a place where deaemons or demons reside and is essentially demonic.

This was separated from necromancy

Nope. Blizzard just tried to trick you into believing warlocks aren't necrolytes. Warlock magics, per Warcraft III, are defined as demonic powers of entropy and destruction, which is a process - not a living thing. The warlocks' powers don't come from the living - they have never come from the living. Ultimately, their demonic power comes from demons and the Twisting Nether, which was still basically treated as the realm of the dead back then. Also, warlock npcs - when regarding to WCIII - had the raise dead spell:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr....shtml#warlock

Raises 6 dead units in an area to fight for the Stormreaver Warlock. Animated units are invulnerable.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Drak%27thul...m_Warcraft_III

[*]WCRPG (2003): This changed to Warlocks being arcane spellcasters capable of controlling demonic companions. They had very few other abilities beyond summoning demons.

I doubt the RPGs were ever canon. Even if they were, warlocks are still technically arcane spellcasters or a form of arcane spellcasters if their power is still from an arcane realm, which the Twisting Nether is. And given that you can't spell disorder without order, which is most commonly perceived as arcane magic, I'm willing to bet that fel magic can be perceived as some manifestation of order.

[*]Magic & Mayhem (2004): The term fel energy was added to describe demonic arcane, based on the blood of demons. This was not tied to any particular class. It was separate from necromancy.

Demons were described as "fel" by Warcraft III. The term existed before Magic & Mayhem:

http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutral/feldemons.shtml

[*]WoW (2004): This changed to Warlocks using some soul magic again.

1) The warlocks' magic was never described as soul magic by WoW during 2004.

2) They were basically treated as former mages (or former arcane spellcasters) who tapped into chaotic magics - the magics that connected the myriad worlds together per Warcraft III. They basically tapped into powers that held control over the earth as if they're necrolytes. They were consumed by a lust for dark knowledge as if they're necromancers whose insatiable lust to delve into the dark arts drove them to forsake their very souls. The Burning Legion feeds them their power, allowing them to channel destructive energies and call upon the emissaries of their demon masters:

http://web.archive.org/web/200310021....shtml#warlock

Warlocks were mages that delved too deeply into the roots of demonic power. Consumed by a lust for dark knowledge, they've tapped into chaotic magics from beyond the world. The Burning Legion now feeds them their powers, allowing them to channel destructive energies and call upon the powerful emissaries of their demon masters.

^They were basically treated as acolytes. But instead of giving themselves over to the power of the Lich King and the Scourge, they gave themselves to the power of Sargeras and his Burning Legion, which the so-called first necrolyte - Sataiel - was a part of.

[*]WoWRPG (2005): Fel was evil arcane that resides in demon blood.

Fel still resides in demon blood and as of the Chronicle, it's basically demonic arcane or a form of demonic arcane. It's kinda is...the opposite of the arcane (the lifeblood of a nascent titan) and is what I like to call deathblood.

This is tied to arcanists, not tied to Warlocks (other than their fel companions)

The RPG treats warlocks as arcanists.

Metzen said fel energy is demonic, essentially entropic, essentially death energy.

Metzen established fel energy is essentially death energy before any canon Blizzard-related source stated it's not.

[*]WC Encyclopedia (2006): Demons can be created by infusing creatures with fel energy.

But that doesn't mean demons are immortals that were infused with fel energy, which is what Sean is ultimately claiming.

[*]Rise of the Horde (2006): Warlocks summon demons.

Warlocks can summon daemons or demons per Warcraft I. Do you have anything insightful to share?

They cast fire and shadow spells

Rise of the Horde was published 2006, which is after Blizzard already established that they're about fire and shadow magic:

https://youtu.be/ioQWkWj5_ss?t=11m14s

They were always about fire and shadow magic, which is a priestly magic per canon. Warcraft I basically treats warlocks as the horde analog of conjurers AND clerics. The clerics were basically priests who channeled the spirit of humanity whereas the warlocks channeled the elements and, by extension, the elemental spirits of hell - the technically demonic place with dark forces that the necrolytes had close ties to.

drained life

They had the ability to create a poison cloud that chokes life and thus drain it out of a body since Warcraft I. And given that the essence of fel magic is poisonous per canon, I'd state this poison cloud is a fel cloud.

They had no healing spells.

It is stated that apparently warlock magics didn't embrace the healing arts. It didn't state they didn't have any healing spells. Arguably, drain life is a healing spell.

Basically the same as in WoW minus soul magic.

Gul'dan was using soul shards back then.

No mention of fel

Fel is basically a combination of fire and shadow - things mentioned by RoTH. And just because RoTH does not mention fel doesn't mean fel "stopped" existing when regards to WoW. Orcs still drank Mannoroth's fel blood.

demon blood being necessary to spellcasting.

Just because there's no mention of demon blood being necessary for spellcasting doesn't mean it isn't necessary. Warlocks, as fel casters, are technically demonic spellcasters and technically have demonic blood. Their warlocks magics are outright defined as demonic and demonic power is outright defined as warlock magics. If warlock magics are demonic, warlocks are demonic. Their demonic warlock magic spreads like radiation and would probably seep into their blood. They channel the energies of demons through their bodies.

[*]Tides of Darkness (2007): Warlocks different from necrolytes.

This is a lie because necrolytes were treated as warlocks by Tides of Darkness and warlocks were even referred to as necromancers even after Gul'dan slaughtered necrolytes.

[*]Beyond the Dark Portal (2008): Warlocks wielded slow death magics in addition to other types. They could drain life to heal themselves.

Nothing new.

[*]Blizzard (2011): RPG sourcebooks deemed non-canon. Details about fel energy's source, properties, and usage removed. Some semblance of various previous definitions still floating around.

Metzen's statement that fel energy is demonic is still canon at this time.

[*]UVG (2013): Fel is a destructive form of magic and is carried by demons in the Burning Legion. Warlocks seek to understand darker, fel-based magics, including destructive spells.

1) The UVG has quite a lot of mistakes.

2) It still didn't contradict that fel energy is death energy, which pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion.

[*]Copeland (2014): Fel is within demons, but they aren't "the" source. The nature of this magic is created from destroying something else. "Burn life to create" kind of thing.

Sean Copeland isn't the author of WoW and so he doesn't have it within his ability to retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons are from. His denial that demonologists need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon described as demonic was never canon.

Fel magic is its own category, not the same as Death.

Neilson's BotH story generalized warlocks as necromancers and Neilson doesn't have the ability to retcon the statement of Chris Metzen, who was the Senior Vice President of Story & Franchise Development when Micky made that statement. You also forgot to mention the part where Micky made an excuse.

Warlocks use soul shards, but don't use them to raise the dead.

Jeremy Feasel is a game designer who drinks alcohol - his job isn't to retcon the fact that Gul'dan and his warlocks used souls to raise the dead. His statement? Non-canon

Fel isn't death magic. It's the language of chaos.

Flawed statement is flawed. Fel isn't an actual language.

Fel is the primal force of chaos.

Fel is the manifestation of Disorder within the physical universe. It is fueled by drawing life from living beings

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/695407155680182272

Fel is the primal force of chaos. It can pool into a green goop when it's in physical form.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/goop

a viscous or sticky substance; goo.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/slime

: a viscous, glutinous, or gelatinous substance

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft:_O...manual#Slime_2

The Necrolyte clan believes that the strange slimes found in certain areas seek to eat the blood of the Orcs. No magiks could have created these crawling masses, but yet they exist. This slime seems attracted to the heat of Orcish bodies, and will seep through even the tightest armor to drain into the pores of its victims skin and sap them of strength and life.

http://www.wowhead.com/npc=107550/animated-fel

^Fel is the primal force of chaos and can pool into a green goop or slime when it's in physical form. The necrolytes have a belief about the slime and fel can be animated per canon (is that substance alive when animated?). Prior to being animated, fel would be - or is - inanimate and so warlocks can, presumably, animate or fuel the fel by drawing life from living beings and be considered animancers or necromancers.

From draining life, to converting life into a force that is poisonous and described by God-King Metzen as essentially death energy, to afflicting enemies with something that can be described as necrotic (affliction), to summoning - and binding the souls of - fel constructs such as infernals, to controlling apparitions that appear as disembodied skulls and are ultimately a combination of the spiritual Light and Void energies, to even manipulating those bone-animating shadowflames and doomfire spirits, a warlock is clearly some manipulator of life and death (necromancer). To deny it is to deny most - if not all - things warlocks are about. And to imply and ultimately claim warlocks are incapable of using the souls they harvest to raise the dead even though canon established that they can is to open oneself up for mockery or dismissal.

[Aquamonkey]

The Eye of Killrogg(iconic warlock spell) is said to be a type of "death"(necromantic) magic. http://classic.battle.net/war2/units/ogre.shtml

The franchise didn't start with Warcraft 2...

[steelballfc]

I have started reading @Aquamonkey and @Rainforest posts when I was young lad, now I'm old and the death god calling me, I have written on my will for my sons to continue this debate and inform me in my graveyard about it.