Why are 'undertuned' raids a bad thing?

[Deleted]

I don't care about mythic raiding anymore. I raided quite high up for my server(s) since Vanilla but with the start of Legion I just could not be arsed anymore with 300 wipes on a boss and spending most evenings in there.
Im not raiding Heroic with some friends and family and its fine. They did overtune the fuck out of ToV though which I don't really understand as its just Heroic.
I don't see the point in making Heroic (and normal) actually hard when you have Mythic that you can make as hard as you want it to be.

[Deleted]

Players don't keep progressing if something is too hard. But i guess Logic goes out the window the moment you apply makebelief numbers and makebelief arguments to shit any way you see fit.

And players keep on playing when there's nothing to progress on for a significant amount of time? Gotcha.

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they are not - they are exackly what majority of playerbase desires - its time to end the regime of mythic crybabies and get rid of mythic and all of its toxicity that it brings to wow community

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yes - its time to cut out this cancer and put the resources from it to more desired content.

Please elaborate what more desired content is, more pet battles? More quests?

[Deleted]

And players keep on playing when there's nothing to progress on for a significant amount of time? Gotcha.

Strawman, proving my point. If 500 guilds run out of content versus 5000 guilds doing so, then 5k guilds take priority ; hence why there is a gradual nerf system, not a straight up nerf system.

A loud minority crying, is all.

[Deleted]

Strawman, proving my point. If 500 guilds run out of content versus 5000 guilds doing so, then 5k guilds take priority ; hence why there is a gradual nerf system, not a straight up nerf system.

A loud minority crying, is all.

Except it isn't the top 500 guilds crying currently, it is the more casual people who see it as a divine right to kill last boss on mythic difficulty. And also, it is not 5000 guilds running out of content, it is 5000 guilds who give up. The content is there if you have a bit of stamina and don't give up as soon as things become a bit difficult.

[kamuimac]

Please elaborate what more desired content is, more pet battles? More quests?

new dungeons every tier / badge/vp gear / more fun daily content.

thats what causal players enjoy - something that give them gradula progression over time . not bashing head 100 times against a wall that drops them minor gear upgrades.

[Meiffert]

Players don't keep progressing if something is too hard. But i guess Logic goes out the window the moment you apply makebelief numbers and makebelief arguments to shit any way you see fit.

That's interesting. You might be right, I'm sure there are players who unsubscribe if they can't kill a boss quickly.
On the other hand it seems to me that way more people unsubscribe when everything is cleared and content has run out. As is typical at the end of expansions.

Whether people stop progressing is a different question, I'm sure they do, but so what? It will get nerfed eventually and they can kill it then. Only more reason to keep playing till then.

You say that high end raiders are a minority and you are absolutely right. On the other hand there is a reason for multiple difficulties. What I don't understand is why people don't use the lower difficulty settings to fit the raid to their needs.
Easy - Medium - Hard - Very Hard sounds more reasonable to me than Easy - Easy - Easy - Easy. That would defeat the purpose of having all the difficulties in the first place.

new dungeons every tier / badge/vp gear / more fun daily content.

thats what causal players enjoy - something that give them gradula progression over time . not bashing head 100 times against a wall that drops them minor gear upgrades.

How is that relevant?
I'm not calling for Blizzard to remove pet battles and pvp from the game. Why should casual players care about mythic raids?

[Deleted]

Mythic raids should be a myth for the vast majority. If they aren't we should call them something else.

[Deleted]

new dungeons every tier / badge/vp gear / more fun daily content.

thats what causal players enjoy - something that give them gradula progression over time . not bashing head 100 times against a wall that drops them minor gear upgrades.

And what has anything of that to do with mythic? The overwhelming majority of work goes into the raid itself (design, art) and not into tuning mythic bosses - that's like 10% of the work.

So please stop crying on this forum because you and your guild aren't good enough for well (read: tightly) tuned mythic bosses.
You have normal and heroic - a challenge that is appropriate for your level.

[Nitros14]

Players don't keep progressing if something is too hard. But i guess Logic goes out the window the moment you apply makebelief numbers and makebelief arguments to shit any way you see fit.

Player skill isn't static. People can improve when faced with a challenge, and feel good about doing so.

Unless the raid is too overtuned. But if the raid is undertuned then they'll never need to improve and probably won't feel good about beating something that wasn't challenging.

[Deleted]

new dungeons every tier / badge/vp gear / more fun daily content.

thats what causal players enjoy - something that give them gradula progression over time . not bashing head 100 times against a wall that drops them minor gear upgrades.

Why do they have to be mutually exclusively? I assume you still want them to do heroic raids, tuning a heroic raid into mythic difficulty doesn't take up a huge amount of resources like you seem to think it does.

If you don't like raiding mythic then don't. If you want more dungeons, cry to blizzard somewhere else. Don't understand why you see the need to remove an aspect of the game a lot of people enjoy simply because you don''t.

[Deleted]

That's interesting. You might be right, I'm sure there are players who unsubscribe if they can't kill a boss quickly.
On the other hand it seems to me that way more people unsubscribe when everything is cleared and content has run out. As is typical at the end of expansions.

Whether people stop progressing is a different question, I'm sure they do, but so what? It will get nerfed eventually and they can kill it then. Only more reason to keep playing till then.

You say that high end raiders are a minority and you are absolutely right. On the other hand there is a reason for multiple difficulties. What I don't understand is why people don't use the lower difficulty settings to fit the raid to their needs.
Easy - Medium - Hard - Very Hard sounds more reasonable to me than Easy - Easy - Easy - Easy. That would defeat the purpose of having all the difficulties in the first place.

Progression inheritly requires a step up, and a relevant level of challenge. Either people get better, or the challenge decreases as Gear increases.

Thus the need to satisfy the masses increases ; Reducing the difficulty of the higher levels, as the minority which was relevant, has cleared things.

Of course, if you truly stick to your guns (And i doubt anyone does this, btw) - You could just constraint yourself to a gear level that puts the fight to be as hard as you please - If you truly seek the challenge.

But no-one does that. So it can't really be that actual difficulty that bothers people ; Perhaps it is the concept of that the minorities protected community is "Infiltrated" by the "Lesser" raiders?

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Player skill isn't static. People can improve when faced with a challenge, and feel good about doing so.

Unless the raid is too overtuned. But if the raid is undertuned then they'll never need to improve and probably won't feel good about beating something that wasn't challenging.

I agree. To an extent.

"Undertuned", is not relevant for most parts of people - And as far as most people go, they want to experience the content, not actually have a major challenge. (See: Play video games for relaxation.)

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Except it isn't the top 500 guilds crying currently, it is the more casual people who see it as a divine right to kill last boss on mythic difficulty. And also, it is not 5000 guilds running out of content, it is 5000 guilds who give up. The content is there if you have a bit of stamina and don't give up as soon as things become a bit difficult.

Stats tend to disagree on this.

Casual players are not crying about nerfs, the Hardcore people are.

[Deleted]

Last time I checked neither mythic nor heroic were intended for the "average customer".

I believe we are heading to that - one way or another.

[Deleted]

They are not a bad thing.

Emerald nightmare is PERFECT for what it is -a STARTER raid in a new expansion. Its exactly what has been missing in WoW since Wotlk's Naxx - nicely approachable raid to ease-up people back into raiding -there are returning players that have been unsubbed for over a year, people rerolling, brand new players. New expansion should be a fresh start, where difficulty of raids resets, instead of constantly trying to one-up the final tier of previous expansion.

Just toxic elitists are mad that filthy casuals are invading "their" raids, and not just that, they even dare to actually KILL bosses, AND have good fun time with their casual guild AND loot shinys! We can't have that, you need to spend weeks wiping on each individual boss even at basic difficulty, thats how proper raiding should be, thats fun in its pure distilled form!

[Deleted]

I believe we are heading to that - one way or another.

Mythic starts out as really hard, to the point of people saying it's overtuned. What is the problem?

That people were not given enough time to clear it? Or is there just some dishonesty in the mix of the perception of thoose claiming themselves to be HC and what Mythic actually is cleared by?

I'm willing to wager it's dishonesty.

[Meiffert]

Progression inheritly requires a step up, and a relevant level of challenge. Either people get better, or the challenge decreases as Gear increases.

I understand. The problem is that at least with EN, the starting point was too low.
We killed Xavius (the final mythic boss of an instance) in 6 pulls. Instead of nerdscreams of joy, what you could hear on Discord was literally: "That was it?" said in a really disappointed voice. There was no sense of accomplishment at all.

Perhaps it is the concept of that the minorities protected community is "Infiltrated" by the "Lesser" raiders?

I'm sure that many feel that way and it is in a way understandable, there is some prestige in being one of few who have achieved something.
I certainly think though that the advantages of more players clearing the content outweigh the cons. I also support the nerfs to mythic ToV, despite the fact that it was tuned correctly in my opinion. Guilds that wanted the challenge have cleared it or done their best and at this time there are way more guilds stuck than guilds still enjoying the progress. Since there isn't much room to outgear the instance, it has to be nerfed instead.

[Deleted]

Just toxic elitists are mad that filthy casuals are invading "their" raids ... We can't have that, you need to spend weeks wiping on each individual boss even at basic difficulty

No one cares about the 3(!) difficulty levels below mythic, the problem starts when Blizzard brings down the fourth one because the guilds that kill the usual loot pinata (or in case of EN 4 out 7 (with traits and gear 7/7) bosses) start crying when they hit a "hard boss" (just kidding talking about medium difficulty bosses like odyn and guarm).

The only thing ToV showed is that in EVERY raid there has to be at least one loot pinata (even on mythic difficulty) for the so called "mythic guilds" (actually heroic guilds) with 1/x kills pre-nerf/overgearing.


Nerfs to helya obviously make sense since for different reasons Blizzard wants to push Nighthold out earlier than most people expected.

[Deleted]

Casual players are not crying about nerfs, the Hardcore people are.

We're in a thread which is about the overall difficulty of raids from the get-go. When I say crying, I mean the crying prior to these announced nerfs to ToV. I actually don't mind these nerfs.

I also think the people who cried prior to these nerfs about ToV have a point if they were crying about Heroic difficulty which I felt was overtuned given that it is intended to be for the more casual people. It is when people who clear heroic and then go into mythic and start making whine posts on the forums of Mythic being too hard that gets me. It is supposed to be hard.

I actually think the way ToV has been handled is the way things should be handled in the future (at least on mythic difficulty). Make the content hard (only 50 guilds have killed Helya as of yet) and then nerf it a month or 3 weeks prior to the next tier

[Halobob87]

Couse killing an undertuned boss isn't really satisfying. And yes, EN was undertuned, expecially the whole HC (that we oneshotted on d1 with a few wipe only at xavius), and mythic Xavius. Of course there are still guild progressing trough EN HC (and M), but those guilds that are still on HC are mainly friend and Family guild that probably usually don't focus on progression, not killing the endboss on a somewhat decently hard difficulty should not be a major concern.

New raid should be challenging even on hc (couse top guild will still steamroll trough it anyway). If u want an easy peasy walk in the park mode there's still normal and lfr. A new raid should be nerfed only close to the relase of new content, or when a boss is actually overtuned (like helya HC week 1). ToV was fine, Odyn was far from overtuned (healing and dps requirements ware pretty forgiving) , Guarm is ment to be a thigh dps check .
Emerald Nigthmare on the other side saw more then 50 kills of M Xavius week 1 , and recived exactly 0 nerf trough more then 3 months (with the exemption of a few nerf to evil tree for small size groups), couse 57% of the guild killed him on HC (for comparision, Mar'gok was killed by ~25% of the guild before BRF relase).

[cFortyfive]

toxicity

Again this term without any meaning. I hope though you at least are consequent and remove yourself as well as you are very clearly so quite the toxic element as well going with your own dense definition.

[Deleted]

Because it creates problems down the line unless blizzard choose to make everything 'undertuned' now. Currently I am in a guild that has only just cleared 7/7 mythic playing a lot more casually than before, but I have raided at a top 50 world level in mists, so I have some experience with hardcore raiding. And there is no way in hell the majority of people in my guild where good enough to kill things like Lei Shen, Sha of Fear etc when they where current, and unfortunately they believe they are now. Half of our wipes on Xavius where because people simply didn't stand in the big green mechanic they where clearly told pre-fight where to go and at what time, as well as over comms told at the specific point. Do you think these people, who now consider themselves hardcore raiders, will be happy when they come up against a boss like Lei Shen was, and have 0 chance of killing it? Some might improve, but a lot will simply quit. It creates unrealistic expectations, and blizzard have a tendency, as they have done this patch apparently with Helya, of creating one big murder boss that will cause a lot of frustration.