7.1.5 PTR Notes Changes for DPS DKs

[Maxweii]

Always fun to read these forums, everyone complaning on everyone (Mostly), anyhow!

Maxweii, i just recently went over to Haste/Mastery build myself, its way more fun (To me) than Cast is and i did it since i got Belt and Shoulder legendary as both got Mastery and Haste, and due to the buffs to both Gary/Dark Arb and the Ghouls from Apoc and army,i think the Belt and shoulder is a realy strong combo, but i wonder, how would they fare against bracer/Belt after the recent nerf to the bracers, in 7.1.5?

I'm used to it which is why someone like Fanakk is so easily ignored :c

I don't fully have the legendary testing done, and even with the tuning on them it could change still, but from my solo legendary tests the bracers are still hands down the strongest ST legendary for Unholy, not by as much as before but it's still the best for ST. I haven't done all the combinations of legendaries due to well, there's a lot of them so doing all the combo's takes time (specially when I have to test it for both Cast and CS builds). So the initial post I'll be putting up later will have more just ST and 6 target aoe sims with no legendaries, and I'll expand with it over time.

Snip

Man not only do you continue with the napkin math now apparently you're a world first raider, who would have known from a no name new poster account! Don't worry, my lack of raiding for the last month doesn't worry me as much as it does you.

[Deleted]

I'm used to it which is why someone like Fanakk is so easily ignored :c

I don't fully have the legendary testing done, and even with the tuning on them it could change still, but from my solo legendary tests the bracers are still hands down the strongest ST legendary for Unholy, not by as much as before but it's still the best for ST. I haven't done all the combinations of legendaries due to well, there's a lot of them so doing all the combo's takes time (specially when I have to test it for both Cast and CS builds). So the initial post I'll be putting up later will have more just ST and 6 target aoe sims with no legendaries, and I'll expand with it over time.



Man not only do you continue with the napkin math now apparently you're a world first raider, who would have known from a no name new poster account! Don't worry, my lack of raiding for the last month doesn't worry me as much as it does you.

I dont need math, its you who is telling 90% of other DKs who are on top are playing wrong not me...

Why should it worry me that u arent raiding? I knew it before you told me that you arent raiding, cause if you would raid, you would never write such nonsense


If i or someone will do Sims for the upcoming DK UH buffs and we will clearly see that CS outperforms Castigator, you know what a good DK would do?
He would switch to CS and play it, to try to be at maximum help to the guild and progress...

If you would post a detailed simulations for the finished patchnotes i will gladly thank you for that and if we see CS outperform everything else i will do some tests myself and after i will confirm it i will switch to CS.

But not a single good DK will play CS on LIVE right now...

[Deleted]

I don't fully have the legendary testing done, and even with the tuning on them it could change still, but from my solo legendary tests the bracers are still hands down the strongest ST legendary for Unholy, not by as much as before but it's still the best for ST. I haven't done all the combinations of legendaries due to well, there's a lot of them so doing all the combo's takes time (specially when I have to test it for both Cast and CS builds). So the initial post I'll be putting up later will have more just ST and 6 target aoe sims with no legendaries, and I'll expand with it over time.

Ahh okay cool!

[Maxweii]

So as some of you here know I was doing sims on CS builds vs Castigator builds in the current 7.1.5 build on the PTR. It's asked here very frequently if a CS Mastery build will be the way to go, so this aims to clear it up a bit. PLEASE remember that the PTR is still ongoing and I will update this accordingly whenever there is changes to tuning on Unholy. This is updated as of 12/20/2016 with the 7.1.5.23244 build on the PTR.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

If any questions are to be had about it please ask me and I will be happy to answer, however the document does answer a lot of things in it to make things as clear and transparent as possible.

[Deleted]

Looks pretty even everywhere realy, i like that cause then we got 2 ways to choose

[Maxweii]

Looks pretty even everywhere realy, i like that cause then we got 2 ways to choose

Well, it looks fairly even if you're only talking about ST. AoE/Cleave there's a huge difference

[Coro]

So as some of you here know I was doing sims on CS builds vs Castigator builds in the current 7.1.5 build on the PTR. It's asked here very frequently if a CS Mastery build will be the way to go, so this aims to clear it up a bit. PLEASE remember that the PTR is still ongoing and I will update this accordingly whenever there is changes to tuning on Unholy. This is updated as of 12/20/2016 with the 7.1.5.23244 build on the PTR.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

If any questions are to be had about it please ask me and I will be happy to answer, however the document does answer a lot of things in it to make things as clear and transparent as possible.

Thanks, that is super helpful! Is there somewhere where we have discussed stat weights? I saw your note that there is 21% haste, but not sure what % Mastery was used for CS and what % crit was for Castigator.

I've been focused all on crit gear so trying to determine once PTR comes out if I can even move to a mastery build yet.

Thanks!

[Maxweii]

Thanks, that is super helpful! Is there somewhere where we have discussed stat weights? I saw your note that there is 21% haste, but not sure what % Mastery was used for CS and what % crit was for Castigator.

I've been focused all on crit gear so trying to determine once PTR comes out if I can even move to a mastery build yet.

Thanks!

Castigator build has - 33.11% crit (before EoC), 22.67% haste, 36.0% mastery 0 vers
CS Build has - 12.96% crit, 21.62% haste, 89.71% mastery, 0 vers

Nothing on stat weights yet as tuning is likely still to come a bit and stat weights take a bit to find out, I'd rather do it when things are more finalized than do it when things are in flux. These give an idea of what currently is doing best, but what I make clear a few times is that this can and or will change if more tuning comes in.
Eventually I will do stat weights if I can though :P

(Also if you wana see the gear/their stats download the sims in the resources and you can see everything)

[Coro]

Castigator build has - 33.11% crit (before EoC), 22.67% haste, 36.0% mastery 0 vers
CS Build has - 12.96% crit, 21.62% haste, 89.71% mastery, 0 vers

Nothing on stat weights yet as tuning is likely still to come a bit and stat weights take a bit to find out, I'd rather do it when things are more finalized than do it when things are in flux. These give an idea of what currently is doing best, but what I make clear a few times is that this can and or will change if more tuning comes in.
Eventually I will do stat weights if I can though :P

(Also if you wana see the gear/their stats download the sims in the resources and you can see everything)

Awesome stuff, thanks!!

[Elerubard]

In the event of a BoS/Gathering Storm build coming out on top; what are the best legendaries? The ring, the belt, the wrists, and the helm(thank christ that's getting fixed) all seem to benefit by either increasing uptime or taking advantage of the talents you might use for that build.

[Raiz]

If its how i sound to you than i am sorry, but what i dont like is that people telling that "that build" is the way to go with 0 proof, cause they played some subpar speccs on live...

What i want is a good discussion what build COULD POSSIBLE be good for UH DKs in the upcoming patches.... but what i hear from him is like a sincetology telling the same shit... CS best CS best CS viable not worse then Castigator etc....

If some guy came to me who played best build possible on LIVE and now showing me proof that maybe in the next patch we need to switch to CS, i would listen and believe him. But why should we listen to a guy who is not trying to get the maximum amount of his char on live to believe what should be best in the future....

I cant stand the same phrases "CS is the way to go blabla"

I want solid proof and discussions about UH/Frost ST/Aoe Cleave etc.... not that phrases over and over again....

I dont think he is shitty but he clearly dont know the DK very well and still trying to tell what is better...

If you cant proof anything just dont tell lies or your wish thinking...

Thats is my Problem with him @0verdose

Well, clearly we can't take you seriously either. It doesn't matter if you're in a top guild or a top raider, or maybe relying on SimCraft like it's the absolute truth.

Have you ever considered, just once, that you could be wrong maybe ? Judging from your posts, I believe you're too proud to put your ego aside and let it go.

Whatever. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with you. Clearly, you're not an average DK player. You do know your stuff, but sometimes you need to admit you may not be as knowledgeable as you think you are.

[Deleted]

@Maxweii

maybe I missed it, but have you done any simulations with DA?
Sounds good on theory, especially considering the synergy with UF.

[Maxweii]

@Maxweii

maybe I missed it, but have you done any simulations with DA?
Sounds good on theory, especially considering the synergy with UF.

DA is in the mix in that doc, she's decent baseline no legendaries but not top as is. (Hadn't tested UF as it was generally behind both CS and Cast in live without any legendaries so the test is only about CS vs Cast)

[Deleted]

Well, clearly we can't take you seriously either. It doesn't matter if you're in a top guild or a top raider, or maybe relying on SimCraft like it's the absolute truth.

Have you ever considered, just once, that you could be wrong maybe ? Judging from your posts, I believe you're too proud to put your ego aside and let it go.

Whatever. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time with you. Clearly, you're not an average DK player. You do know your stuff, but sometimes you need to admit you may not be as knowledgeable as you think you are.

i am not argruing about if ptr cs will be better, it may be the way to go... but on live it is clearly that CS is not the way to go and telling people otherwise is plain nonsense and wrong

[Reinholder]

So as some of you here know I was doing sims on CS builds vs Castigator builds in the current 7.1.5 build on the PTR. It's asked here very frequently if a CS Mastery build will be the way to go, so this aims to clear it up a bit. PLEASE remember that the PTR is still ongoing and I will update this accordingly whenever there is changes to tuning on Unholy. This is updated as of 12/20/2016 with the 7.1.5.23244 build on the PTR.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

If any questions are to be had about it please ask me and I will be happy to answer, however the document does answer a lot of things in it to make things as clear and transparent as possible.

May have missed it, but how are these numbers looking compared to frost? Still trying to resolve the age old 'what loot spec should I be sitting in' dilemma :P

[Maxweii]

i am not argruing about if ptr cs will be better, it may be the way to go... but on live it is clearly that CS is not the way to go and telling people otherwise is plain nonsense and wrong

One of these posts you'll realize you're still putting words in others mouths and I haven't been saying it's "the way to go". But don't worry people can be patient with you until you realize it.

May have missed it, but how are these numbers looking compared to frost? Still trying to resolve the age old 'what loot spec should I be sitting in' dilemma :P

Cross spec/class comparison sims are generally not useful. Something that sims top might not work out in raids (Necrosis and a Breath playstyle on a fight with high movement for example). Considering Frosts been almost untouched the whole PTR it's very likely going to get something soon.

[Deleted]

More wounds that do baseline less, as well as your DnD, SS, dot and ghoul (in 1.5 he scales with mastery so talking there). You're basing what you're saying on nothing more than napkin math with short term sights for what you're thinking about rather than actually testing it.

Ghoul have nothing to do with a discussion about extra wounds vs CS.
Wounds are incredibly strong, and simply superior in any cleave fight, no matter the stat changes, unless something truly drastically changes.
Again, CS is good on mobile ST only fights. But thinking back on previous designs and encounters in legion, most fights involve some sort of cleave, and they probably will continue to do so. At best i think it will be a talent choice depending on the fight, although it would be kinda annoying with the respec cost outside of gating in and out.

And change something probably will, but not in the way of big castigator nerf. It would take an incredibly bad team of designers to make castigator a bad talent, when it is the only thing keep critical strike viable and interact with the UH DK's in any meaningful way.

It will probably stay competitive, or be baked in with less power.

But lets see when PTR is over.

[Maxweii]

Ghoul have nothing to do with a discussion about extra wounds vs CS.
Wounds are incredibly strong, and simply superior in any cleave fight, no matter the stat changes, unless something truly drastically changes.
Again, CS is good on mobile ST only fights. But thinking back on previous designs and encounters in legion, most fights involve some sort of cleave, and they probably will continue to do so. At best i think it will be a talent choice depending on the fight, although it would be kinda annoying with the respec cost outside of gating in and out.

And change something probably will, but not in the way of big castigator nerf. It would take an incredibly bad team of designers to make castigator a bad talent, when it is the only thing keep critical strike viable and interact with the UH DK's in any meaningful way.

It will probably stay competitive, or be baked in with less power.

But lets see when PTR is over.

I see that you didn't fully read what I was explaining there otherwise you would see why Ghoul was mentioned there.
Also, considering you don't understand what CS is actually good for (which is basically anything and does better in burst/aoe as is), then why are you saying it's only good in this one niche situation? Please guys, actually try to look into things before you're making statements about something you haven't played that much.

And if you didn't see the post, CS is far ahead Cast in the PTR atm (which yes if you read it there's HUGE disclaimers that tuning can and will change things up a bit). However talent changes are more or less done and it's more so just baseline damage changes.

[Deleted]

I see that you didn't fully read what I was explaining there otherwise you would see why Ghoul was mentioned there.
Also, considering you don't understand what CS is actually good for (which is basically anything and does better in burst/aoe as is), then why are you saying it's only good in this one niche situation? Please guys, actually try to look into things before you're making statements about something you haven't played that much.

And if you didn't see the post, CS is far ahead Cast in the PTR atm (which yes if you read it there's HUGE disclaimers that tuning can and will change things up a bit). However talent changes are more or less done and it's more so just baseline damage changes.

Allright, i thought CS meant Clawing Shadows, my bad.

Because Clawing shadows as a design is not made to out-do castigator in a cleave situation unless they change it do a baseline 8 yard aoe move even without DnD.
And if we are talking about exactly that, then it just means the tuning is far from done.

[Deleted]

One of these posts you'll realize you're still putting words in others mouths and I haven't been saying it's "the way to go". But don't worry people can be patient with you until you realize it.



Cross spec/class comparison sims are generally not useful. Something that sims top might not work out in raids (Necrosis and a Breath playstyle on a fight with high movement for example). Considering Frosts been almost untouched the whole PTR it's very likely going to get something soon.

you were saying "viable" and it is not viable if u want to aim higher.... you should have written it is viable for casual progress that was i would not argrue with you