Is Archimonde really dead?

[Aquamonkey]

How do you know for a fact the stench itself isn't the decaying factor? Rotting corpses do contain acid in the form of stomach acid and probably emit toxic gases enhanced through the dark magic aswell. It also mentions corrosion, which is what acid does. Decay is completely different. You can corrode metal and stone, you can't decay it. Decay is for organic matter only.

The cloud is comprised of brimstone, acid, and poisonous gases. That is what it literally says. Those are the components. It also says it is a mix of the stench of rotting corpses and the essence of evil. The essence of evil can be considered the magic used to summon the components, may also be in the Hell brimstone. The stench of rotting corpses comes from the chemical byproducts (Putrescine and Cadaverine) released as microorganisms consume dead flesh. These chemicals are poisonous, causing decay but not in a magical necromantic sense (which wasn't added to the lore until much later).

[Tripzzz]

The cloud is comprised of brimstone, acid, and poisonous gases. That is what it literally says. Those are the components. It also says it is a mix of the stench of rotting corpses and the essence of evil. The essence of evil can be considered the magic used to summon the components, may also be in the Hell brimstone. The stench of rotting corpses comes from the chemical byproducts (Putrescine and Cadaverine) released as microorganisms consume dead flesh. These chemicals are poisonous, causing decay but not in a magical necromantic sense (which wasn't added to the lore until much later). The acid corrodes.

Yes those are the components. And acid and poisonous gases are present in rotting corpses. Stomach acid is some of the strongest acid there is. The necromancy would be in the fact these chemicals from rotting corpses were what was magically conjured. And you admit yourself it is these chemicals that cause decay not the acid. For example, lets say a person has a fresh 1 inch cut on their arm. What would happen if you pour acid over it? It would begin to corrode the flesh creating an even bigger wound. But the acid itself will not rot the flesh.

[Aquamonkey]

Yes those are the components. And acid and poisonous gases are present in rotting corpses. Stomach acid is some of the strongest acid there is. The necromancy would be in the fact these chemicals from rotting corpses were what was magically conjured. And you admit yourself it is these chemicals that cause decay not the acid. For example, lets say a person has a fresh 1 inch cut on their arm. What would happen if you pour acid over it? It would begin to corrode the flesh creating an even bigger wound. But the acid itself will not rot the flesh.

They aren't reanimating the dead or harnessing dead souls. They are conjuring biproducts of physical decomposition. Necromancers and Warlocks are explicitly different in WC1.

[Tripzzz]

They aren't reanimating the dead or harnessing dead souls. They are conjuring biproducts of physical decomposition. Necromancers and Warlocks are explicitly different in WC1.

Oh i agree warlocks and necromancers are different. I am merely arguing warlocks can and do in fact use some necromantic magic. If the acid in the poison cloud is stomach acid(which it could be) and the stench that is conjured are byproducts of decomposition then it is similar to the summoning of the eye in WC2. The magical conjuring of single components of corpses. Which is at the very least hinted to be present in WC1 and then confirmed in WC2 through the Eye of Killrogg.

[Aquamonkey]

Oh i agree warlocks and necromancers are different. I am merely arguing warlocks can and do in fact use some necromantic magic.

They do now. But not originally.

If the acid in the poison cloud is stomach acid(which it could be) and the stench that is conjured are byproducts of decomposition then it is similar to the summoning of the eye in WC2. The magical conjuring of single components of corpses. Which is at the very least hinted to be present in WC1 and then confirmed in WC2 through the Eye of Killrogg.

The Eye of Kilrogg is an apparition that merely takes the form of an eye. It's not a literal eye from a corpse. It even states "eye" in quotations: "The "eye" is a physical object which can be destroyed by enemy arrows or cannon fire, but it is very fast."

[Tripzzz]

They do now. But not originally.


The Eye of Kilrogg is an apparition that merely takes the form of an eye. It's not a literal eye from a corpse. It even states "eye" in quotations: "The "eye" is a physical object which can be destroyed by enemy arrows or cannon fire, but it is very fast."

Originally they summoned the biproducts of decaying corpses, sounds pretty necromantic to me. The eye is still explicitly stated to be a type of necromantic magic. The abilities of the ogre-magi are explicitly stated to have come from the souls of the dead warlocks and are explicitly called "death magiks".

http://classic.battle.net/war2/units/ogre.shtml

[Aquamonkey]

Originally they summoned the biproducts of decaying corpses, sounds pretty necromantic to me.

Summoning itself is not a necromantic ability and is not something the Necromancers did, even with corpses.

The eye is still explicitly stated to be a type of nercomantic magic. The abilities of the ogre mages are explicitly stated to have come from the souls of the dead warlocks and are explicitly called "death magiks".

Yes, necromantic abilities are something added to Warlocks in WC2. That is not something in WC1. You can attempt to shoehorn it into the WC1 lore, but it did not exist there initially. It's called a retcon. WC2 did a lot of that.

[Tripzzz]

Summoning itself is not a necromantic ability and is not something the Necromancers did, even with corpses.


Yes, necromantic abilities are something added to Warlocks in WC2. That is not something in WC1. You can attempt to shoehorn it into the WC1 lore, but it did not exist there initially. It's called a retcon. WC2 did a lot of that.

Like i had previously said. Summoning the biproducts of corpse sounds very necromantic. The fact the warlock ability explicitly mentions rotting corpses is a hint the spell is necromantic. It's not shoehorning when the text straight up mentions the dead. haha.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

necromantic abilities are something added to Warlocks in WC2.

This is not true. A warlock has necromantic abilities since WCI - Drain Soul and Poison Cloud

Not even logic.

Yes it is.

Just stating how things are.

No you're not. You’re stating things that aren’t true.

They used to exclusively get their power from that place. This has changed repeatedly to expand where they get their power.

They got their power from the realm of the dead. Stop crying.

Don't bring WC2 into a note about WC1.

Don’t tell me what to bring into my own notes or posts.

The post was a summary of the temporal progression and development of the lore.

I didn’t state that my post was a summary of progression.

You're mixing up eras

According to the Warcraft I manual, the powers of the warlocks are from the underworld, which is a necromantic place where necromantic powers are of according to the Warcraft II manual. See the progression?

inserting information from later works.

That’s what you did.

This was never said to be the case for Warlocks. The Warlocks only channeled fire and brimstone, and summoned creatures. They had different agendas and different opinions.

Warlocks channeled the elements and, by extension, the elemental spirits from the realm of the dead. They also used a poison cloud that was a mix of the essence of evil and the stench of corpses - a stench that relates to the dead and necromantic magic because death, in the form of necromantic magic, is an unavoidable force that pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. Also, Medivh - as a warlock - drained the soul of the land.

Except the WC1 manual clearly differentiates their powers and never once indicated that the groups were related.

The necrolytes had close ties to the dark forces of hell, the place where warlocks had close ties to, and in consequence studied the forbidden arts of the dead. Since hell is technically demonic, the necrolytes had close, demonic ties to demonic forces. And their dark masters are clearly daemons and not elemental spirits, old gods, undead, void lords, or wild gods.

The Warlocks floated around in their own spirits to guide the demon.

They had the ability to sacrifice their bodies as if they're acolytes who can shed their bodies and take on the form of shades - spirits that are undead. Warlocks had the ability to become undead and the ability to turn into undead is a necromantic ability.

They didn't bind souls or even their own soul.

They did bind and/or control souls because daemons have souls unless they’re soulless. If their daemons are soulless or don't have souls to bind, warlocks were summoning and controlling lifeless/soulless bodies from the realm of the dead. And if warlocks were summoning and controlling soulless bodies from the realm of the dead, they were summoning and controlling the bodies of the dead and thus performing necromancy.

The Twisting Nether was introduced in WC2. It was not synonymous with the underworld.

The Nether is the underworld.

The underworld was a place deep within the Nether.

Source?

Shaman and Warlocks channeled the energies of the Twisting Nether, but they were barely scratching the surface.

Warlocks as a whole weren’t given a solid definition by Warcraft II. They were essentially channelers – or conduits – as they were in Warcraft I.

Gul'dan explored deeper and found demons (Kil'jaeden).

With the knowledge given by KJ, Gul'dan explored further into the depths of the Twisting Nether, where he finally found the spirits of the dead. The orcs had always believed that the spirits of the dead resided in the depths of some "lost realm of chaos," but none had ever actually found them until Gul'dan.

It doesn’t matter if Gul’dan explored further into the Twisting Nether’s depths, finding the spirits of the dead. The fact is, the spirits of the dead reside in the Nether and so the Nether is the realm of the dead or the realm of spirits – a place with energies that Gul'dan channeled before he even met Kil'jaeden.

Warlocks did use necromantic magic in WC2, but they weren't full Necrolytes

According to you and a company with employees that claim warlocks can practice necromancy without being necromancers when the whole class is basically centered around afflicting the living with necrotic afflictions, communing with astral entities from the astral Nether, summoning astral bodies from the astral Nether, binding astral bodies from the astral Nether, channeling the energies of spirits from the astral Nether, and channeling destructive elements from a spiritual plane.

who exclusively trained in necromantic magic.

Warlocks are trained in necromantic magic.

It would be more accurate to say that Necrolytes were former Warlocks.

Actually no, it wouldn’t be. Warlocks, trained in the arcane mysteries of life and death, are what the necrolytes are called by Gul’dan.

They're defined by the magics they study and use.

Thank you captain obvious.

Yes, Warlocks did originally (WC1) have a connection to the realm of the dead.

Thank you captain obvious.

I never denied that.

Oh, but you’ll deny that their energies are technically necromantic even if they’re from the realm of the dead.

The difference is that the Warlocks studied and used different kinds of energies from that realm compared to the Necrolytes (again in WC1).

Warlocks are necrolytes.

Entropy was never mentioned in WC1.

That doesn’t mean the warlocks’ powers weren’t essentially powers of entropy and destruction. Technically every energy is entropic.

They channeled power directly from that realm in WC1.

They used the destructive power of the underworld, a power that could be – or is - used for destruction.

I interpret WC3 as stating they they got that power from the demons themselves. Although, I suppose the "demonic power" can be interpreted to mean type as opposed to ownership (I might be biased by later lore where it comes from demon blood). Like this is the power that demons use, the powers of entropy and destruction. WC3's description of demon warlocks points this way.

I don’t care about your interpretations. Warlock magics are outright defined as demonic powers of entropy and destruction. Key words: warlock magics.

Warlock magics are demonic powers of entropy and destruction, which is a process - not a living thing. Warlock magics don't come from the living and warlock energy spreads like radiation, which means that warlock energy can - or does - seep into warlocks. As warlocks would be, or are, at least a - if not the - source of demonic power (or warlock magics per Warcraft III), warlocks - spellcasters who bind demons to their will - would or do have some connection to demons and, by extension, the place demons are from. This soulbond a warlock can have with a demon would - or does - allow the warlock to manipulate the soul, whether it is disembodied or not. And warlocks can, presumably, destroy their own structures to release the demonic powers of demons and the Nether then give them form, creating entropic horrors - fel magic given form to lash out at all life.

This is warlockism in a nutshell. Warlocks always had the ability to channel.

I do disagree with the logic of power from the realm being inherently demonic merely because demons reside there. Especially due to other beings residing in that realm, and there being different types of power there. Elemental power isn't humanistic despite humans residing in that realm.

If a realm relates to a demon in any way, it can be defined as demonic (of, from, or relating to, a demon). A power from a demonic realm can be described as demonic, but it can also be described as elemental, destructive, necromantic, etc. because, as pointed out earlier, something can have more than one descriptor.

Necromancers made a pact with death. Warlocks made a pact with demons.

This is where you’re wrong. Nowhere did Warcraft III state that all warlocks made a pact with demons. The warlocks, per Warcraft III, are born of the eredar race – a race that was originally a race of demons existing in the Twisting Nether – which was still basically the realm where the spirits of the dead reside. Nowhere does it claim that the eredar warlocks made a pact with demons.

Clear difference. The Twisting Nether wasn't the realm of the dead, only the very deep parts of it, even deeper than where demons resided (WC2).

Headcanon

Probably a mistake.

Probably not. Warlocks had a connection to the realm of the dead since their inception and so they had a connection to the dead whether you want to admit it or not. Warlocks have always been necromantic spellcasters, you're just not smart enough to realize this.

You're allowing later lore to cloud a contemporaneous interpretation of older lore.

Nope

The point here is that in WC3 described warlock magics as power of chaos, entropy, and destruction

The point here is that you’re lying and you're lying on behalf of Copeland. The WC3 manual establishes that warlock magics are powers of entropy and destruction, which is a process – not a living thing. Warlock magics do not come from the living – they never came from the living. If their powers are powers of destruction, their powers would – or does - ultimately come from the destruction of demons because their powers are demonic. Their power would – or does – ultimately come from the Nether because back then, eredar warlocks are from the Nether and warlocks are born of the Eredar race.

From WCI until today, warlocks get their power from demons and/or the place demons are from - whether the place is called hades, hell, the nether, or the underworld. Nothing has changed really. Sean is just a liar that claimed that warlocks (or demonologists) don't harness their power from the Nether (the place demons are from at the time he made that statement and still the place demons are from) and claimed that demons aren't the source of the demonologists' fel energy, an energy described by canon as demonic.

Sean is a Historian. He doesn't have the ability to retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons are from - a fact that you seem incapable of understanding because you've ultimately claimed demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain demonic energy just because Sean stated a whole bunch of lies. And yes, I am calling Sean a liar. If Sean's statements are canon, the warlock class doesn't exist because he denied the most defining aspect of the class.

He denied that demonologists get their power from the place demons are from, claiming that they get their power from destruction and telling someone to recall the undead warlock from the original cinematic. You can clearly see what's going on during that video. You can see an undead warlock and the earth (or world) around the warlock being destroyed. You can also see a destructive construct constructed with brimstone and destructive fel fire rising as if it's a destructive elemental rising from the netherworld or underworld, the necromantic place where necromantic powers are of and where the warlocks' magics are rooted in. Those constructs summoned by warlocks ARE or HAVE the warlocks' demonic power (or warlock magics) and whether over time or outright, the structures of those constructs would be destroyed by their own destructive fel fires or fel energies - energies that would be - or are - released during that destruction.

So yes, Sean is right about warlocks getting their power from destruction. But he is wrong for denying that demons are the source of the warlocks' energy. I'm just curious WHY he denied that demons are the source of an energy described as demonic by canon and WHY he denied demonologists harness their power from the place demons are from. Demons are constructs if they can be destroyed because destruction, with simpler terms, is the process of destroying structures, breaking them down into the parts that they're constructed of. It's an entirely different process from dying but if demons are constructs that have souls, their souls would technically be undead because they were disembodied then attached to constructs. And that's why I believe warlocks are necromancers.

I believe they're necromancers because they bind the souls of fel constructs such as infernals to their will and get their power from the Nether, which canon established as the realm of the dead/spirits where the spirits of the dead reside. Given that Sean believes necromancers are magi and that magi harness their power from the Nether, it's very clear that Sean believes necromancers harness their power from the Nether. I just can't help but to believe Sean denied that warlocks get their power from the Nether because their power is TECHNICALLY necromantic IF it's from the Nether.

Aside from that, Sean doesn't seem to understand the implications of his claims whatsoever. He claims fel magic is a burn life to create kind of thing even though life can't be "burned" or "destroyed" if it's an energy. Now, life can be converted if it's an energy and given what Dave stated, warlocks probably convert life into fel. And if warlocks convert life into fel, they definitely can be defined as manipulators of life or converters of life. They can also be considered manipulators of the dead if they drain then convert life because they drain a state of existence (or life) out of the body, then transform that state of existence into something entirely different, yet Sean denies the fact that warlocks are necromancers or manipulators of life and death, which is a form of life since, your faulty logic aside, death can't exist without life and living beings.

not described as arcane like they were in WC1 and 2.

It doesn’t matter if their powers were described as arcane or not. Their powers are ultimately from demons and, by extension, the Nether – an arcane realm. There isn’t anything that contradicted the fact that their powers are arcane. It just added another descriptor to their magic.

The RPG went back to warlock magic being arcane. It removed any ability to cast necromantic spells, restricting them to mostly only being able to summon demons.

Flawed logic is flawed. Many of the warlocks’ spells (e.g. Doom, Life Tap, Siphon Life, etc.) are considered to be necromancy by the RPG. Also, necromancy has been treated as a school of arcane magic or an arcane art for years. Clearly arcane magic - the magic available to magi - is technically necromantic if it's the magic of necromancers: magi "who have dabbled in dark magic."

Used, but undefined.

Doesn’t matter. You ultimately claimed that the term didn’t exist before Magic & Mayhem even though it did.

it implies that only special demons are fel.

It doesn’t imply that and my point still stands, the term was used pre-Magic & Mayhem

Drain Soul, Soul Shard, Soulstone.

Just because the warlocks can drain souls and use soul-related items doesn't mean their magic was described as "soul magic". However, the demonic warlock magics are indeed soul-binding magics since they bind or connect those infused with it to a demon or demons. Perfect example of fel energy binding someone to a demon: The warlock Vendellin casted a fel curse upon Valeera, infusing her with the fel energy of Kathra'Natir - energy that crawled like maggots through her soul and connected her to Kathra'Natir. Which reminds me, Micky claims a demon was able to possess a body because he was in-between the world of the living and the world of the dead, a necromantic place Micky claimed he intended to be the Nether and not the Shadowlands.

If the Nether was the realm of the dead back then, fel energy existed in the realm of the dead.

It says nothing about "tapped into powers that held control over the earth," they tapped power from beyond the world. Connecting doesn't mean hold control over.

They tapped into chaotic magics and chaotic magics connected the myriad worlds together per Warcraft III. Magics that connected the myriad worlds are magics that would - or does – allow their users to manipulate worlds or a world, which the earth can be defined as.

Both Warlock and Necrolyte arts were referred to as dark in WC1. The difference is that only Necrolyte arts were referred to as "black". Dark is black, but black is not dark.

Warlocks are necrolytes. Don't get it twisted.

You're allowing later lore to cloud a contemporaneous interpretation of older lore.

Nope

This is a change from earlier depictions of Warlocks. Now they're are getting their power exclusively from demons, whereas before they were getting it from the realm itself.

Power from a demonic realm is demonic.

This was a new revalation at the time the WoWRPG was published. And it ONLY resided in demon blood. Yes, fel still resides in demon blood, but that is not exclusive to them anymore.

Flawed logic is flawed. Outside of the RPG, fel is still demonic and demonic energy comes from demons.

The point being that it was not restricted to warlocks. Any arcanist type could use this.

The point being, fel energy was described as the ultimate manifestation of the demonic arcane by the RPG. The question to be asked is if the arcane is inherently demonic (of, from, or relating to, a demon) and if the answer to that question is that it is, arcanists are technically demonologists and therefore warlocks. Given that arcanists essentially harness the power of godlike beings who were uniquely susceptible (and therefore connected) to fel magic and their arcane energy is from the realm of demons, arcane energy very well might be technically demonic. Obviously there is a reason why a common perception was shared that the magi’s magic was unholy and possibly even demonic.

The WC Encyclopedia explicitly stated that demons were immortal.

The Encyclopedia states that demons are immortal. It doesn't state that they were immortal. Stop presenting misinformation.

No.

Yes

In WC1, the Necrolytes ("Practitioners of the Orcish religions") were the counterpart to the Clerics. They dealt with soul/spiritual energies. The Warlocks were the counterpart to the Conjurers. Warlocks channeled the elemental forces of Hell, while the Conjurers channeled the elemental forces of Azeroth. Both had summoning powers.

When regarding to WC1, the warlocks (practitioners of whatever belief warlocks believe in) were the counterparts to the conjurers AND the clerics. The clerics dealt with channeling the spirit of humanity through their bodies, a spirit presumably from whatever spiritual plane there was back in Warcraft I. The warlocks dealt with channeling the elements and, by extension, the elemental spirits of hell, which one can consider to be a spiritual plane because it’s where the spiritual, black essence of the orc souls went to. They both dealt with channeling forces from a spiritual plane whether you want to admit it or not and Medivh, as a warlock, had a mastery of the black arts and he drained the soul of the land to increase his dark powers.

Choking life out of something is different from draining it out of someone into yourself.

Life choked out of someone still counts as life drained.

There are lots of things that are poisonous. nothing in the description for the WC1 ability definitively points to fel. The only supernatural component was brimstone, which they channeled from Hell.

Brimstone is the archaic term for sulfur and sulfur is a yellow element that, when regarding to Warcraft I, comes from the place daemons are from – which one can consider to be a demonic place. The demonic fel – which has a yellow-greenish color - seems to represent sulfur or sulfuric acid and its essence is poisonous per canon. Those are pretty strong indicators that the warlocks' poison cloud is a fel cloud.

The warlocks might no longer have healing spells, but they had once been shaman, and knew how to tend battle wounds in a more mundane fashion.

--Rise of the Horde

It didn’t. It said might, but that doesn’t mean they don’t.

Where was this stated?

When regarding to real life, energy is something you can’t actually create but when regarding to WoW lore, fel energy didn’t exist alongside the Light and Shadow…so…

The point being that it wasn't mentioned as being necessary for their spellcasting, which had been previously established to necessary to cast fel spells.

Fel energy is described as demonic by Metzen and so fel energy was not just considered demonic by the “non-canon” RPG. Fel energy is something that comes from demons and taking it out of the body for spells would entail taking out the blood or spirit. Canon has established that unleashing magic is unleashing one's very own life force.

You are inserting your own narrative.

No I’m not, you are.

Warlocks being necromancers doesn't make them Necromancers or Necrolytes.

Yes it does. You should stop with your nonsense here. Blizzard doesn’t have some special definition of necromancer that don’t apply to warlocks. The whole class is centered around life and death: Draining life, converting life (a state of existence) into an entropic and poisonous substance that can be animated per canon and was described by God-King Metzen as essentially death energy, afflicting enemies with necrotic afflictions or sicknesses that drain life, summoning astral bodies from the astral Nether, binding souls, conjuring apparitions that are ultimately composed of the spiritual Light and Void energies, and manipulating the bone-animating shadowflames and doomfire spirits. Now, instead of being reasonable or sensible and stating warlocks are necromancers who focus on the diseasing, communing with astral bodies, or soulbinding part of necromancy and can reanimate bodies as a side, you - among others - act completely unreasonable. Come on now. This is why I've made an effort to annoy you - and Blizzard's employees - in the past.

it isn't a detailed description of fel energy's source, properties, or usage.

Yes it is. Fel energy is demonic and demonic energy ultimately comes from demons. If demons are from the Nether, we can infer that demonic energy is from the Nether. It doesn’t require a master’s degree to understand this. Sean’s just dumb. If demons aren’t the source of fel magic, they were infused with fel magic. This means that demons didn’t always have fel magic and if demons didn’t always have fel magic, they were never fel-based or fel-touched creatures to begin with:

https://twitter.com/Alex_Afrasiabi/s...57577183973376

Yes, this is a departure from previous lore about fel magic. However, it lines up with what came later and he had personal access to the CDevs.

It doesn’t line up with what came later because fel energy is demonic and comes from demons. It's demonic according to the RPG and Metzen made a non-RPG related statement that fel energy is demonic. Clearly Sean failed to access the CDevs because if he didn't fail, he would not have ultimately claim that demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon described as demonic.

Fel magic was never the same as Death magic.

Although fel magic may (key word: may) not be death magic as of now when regarding to the non-movie canon, Metzen described fel energy as death energy. This means you're wrong.

Warlocks being necromancers doesn't mean everything they do is necromantic.

Warlocks being necromancers means every warlockian thing they do is technically necromantic.

They've harnessed multiple types of power. He's a CDev his job was to write the lore.

You’re mistaken here. He was a CDev and he didn’t have the ability to retcon the canon statement of the Senior Vice President of Story & Franchise Development.

Then why do you ask him lore questions?

To see if he tells the truth or tells excuses – excuses that I would then use to prove my point that a Blizzard employee would state anything that conflicts with the fact that warlocks are necromancers, even if it means presenting me with statements that conflict with canon lore - whether by implication or outright contradiction.

Yes... god-king Metzen who helped codify the lore in Chronicle.... which differentiates Disorder and Death, along with Fel and Necromantic magics as being separate.

Yes…the god-king Metzen, who you called a wishy washy writer.

Essentially being death energy is not the same as actually being death energy.

Actually, it is. Fel energy, as a destructive force, would - or does - push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. If fel energy, even as a destructive force, doesn't push things toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion, what is it and what does it do? Is it a void that pulls things toward a state of entropic decay? Don't answer.

You claimed arcane is chaotic as in volatile and difficult to control and that fel energy is chaotic as in destructive. As a destructive force, fel would - or does - destroy structures, breaking them down over time or outright obliterating them. It seems that fel energy is essentially death energy to me and anyone with a clean mind.

They are magically summoning the components

They're magically summoning deaemons and, by extension, their souls unless daemons are soulless.

the only supernatural component is brimstone from Hell

An element which has a spirit as of current lore, which is what actually matters.

Not in lore means it doesn't exist in lore.

It's either the elements do have spirits or they don't and it's absolutely wrong to state that they didn't have spirits during the events of Warcraft I just because the Warcraft I manual doesn't state they do. Blizzard's Chronicle establishes that there are elemental spirits before it mentions the eredar race - the race warlocks are born of. Warlocks, as of current canon, can channel the elements fire and brimstone/sulfur and - by extension - their spirits.

I see you've given up any semblance of a reasonable or even irrational argument.

Your vision is messed up and you really need to reflect on whether or not you even have any semblance of a reasonable argument. I'm not arguing here. I'm merely stating facts and one of the facts is, you've disregarded my first rule: Don't contradict yourself mr. undead are living and dead. It's either undead are living, dead, or neither. They're not walking contradictions. Are undead Pit Lords? Are they "living" engines of hate and destruction that get a kick out of bringing sorrow and death to all living creatures, including themselves if they're actually "living"? The Chronicle you love quoting so much even establishes that they don't have life and so they're not living beings, even if pre-Chronicle lore state they are.

As cited, they were explicitly separate.

Elemental spirits didn't exist, only elemental forces.

Elemental spirits do exist. The Chronicle establishes that they do.

Cleric: Holy men of Azeroth. Provided spiritual leadership and channeled the spirit of humanity. Healed men's souls.
Necrolyte: Practitioners of the orcish religions. They bind souls, command the black powers of darkness and death, raise undead. They warp the essence of shadow.

Warlocks: Dark brethren of Hades. Provided spiritual leadership to demons and channeled the spiritual elements of hell, a spiritual place. Destroyed men's souls.

Warlocks (a.k.a. necrolytes): Practitioners of the warlockian beliefs. A warlock can drain soul and have a mastery of the black arts (e.g. Medivh). Warlocks ultimately summoned and guided the souls of daemons unless their daemons are soulless and thus undead. Command the destructive powers of the realm of the dead and, by extension, the dead. Summon daemonic bodies from the realm of the dead. They used the essence of evil.

Shadow Spear

Variation on Shadow Bolt

Unholy Armor

Variation on the Death Knights' Unholy Armor spell, which transforms a portion of the recipient's life force and is a variation on the warlocks' Fel Armor spell and Life Tap spell, which transforms a portion of the warlock's life force into fel power.

Dark Vision

Variation on Eye of Kilrogg

They "guided" them. I guess commanding a dog to sit is necromancy...

Dogs aren't from the realm of the dead and there is no substantial evidence that dogs have souls to guide.

You're allowing later lore to cloud a contemporaneous interpretation of older lore.

Headcanon

I doubt Rainforest will accept Chronicle Vol 2

I doubt you will accept what Metzen established, which is that fel energy is death energy. After all, you did call Metzen a wishy washy writer. If the person who created WoW lore himself is wishy washy, I myself have no reason to trust Blizzard's employees to be reliable. I can only trust that they're just as unreliable as liars are, yet you expect me to accept what they state as canon? You're nuts.

he has harrassed Blizzard employees about Fel and Death even after the Warcraft Encyclopedia and Chronicle.

1) Fel is Death

2) Do you think harassing Blizzard employees is going to make me cry? They're wishy washy people who would deny/retcon canon information about a class that I payed Blizzard to play because of said canon information.

[Aquamonkey]

Like i had previously said. Summoning the biproducts of corpse sounds very necromantic. The fact the warlock ability explicitly mentions rotting corpses is a hint the spell is necromantic. It's not shoehorning when the text straight up mentions the dead. haha.

It is not an art or power of the dead and is never linked as such. The stench is just chemicals. Like summoning water.

[Tripzzz]

It is not an art or power of the dead and is never linked as such. The stench is just chemicals. Like summoning water.

Chemicals that come from rotting corpses. And it's not "just chemicals", they explicitly cause DECAY and corrosion. Decay being dead organic matter, linking it with the dead. Clearly hinting at some form of necromancy.

[Yamuri]

Of course not, he and kil'jaeden will do the fusion dance and become Sargeras once again in the next expansion.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Warlock_(Wa...)#Poison_Cloud

The caster creates a cloud comprised of brimstone, acid, and poisonous gases to envelop and choke his targets. This foul stench eats through anything that stands in its way, and chokes the very life out of anyone unlucky enough to be in its path. It is a mix of the sickly stench of rotting corpses and the essence of evil, designed to decay and corrode all that it comes in contact with.

Google Search: Corpse Definition

a dead body, especially of a human being rather than an animal.

The poison cloud is a mix of the essence of evil and the stench of rotting corpses. A corpse is a dead body and the stench of dead bodies is a stench that involves whatever energy/magic that involves those dead bodies. This isn't difficult aquamonkey.

[Aquamonkey]

According to you and a company with employees that claim warlocks can practice necromancy without being necromancers when the whole class is basically centered around afflicting the living with necrotic afflictions, communing with astral entities from the astral Nether, summoning astral bodies from the astral Nether, binding astral bodies from the astral Nether, channeling the energies of spirits from the astral Nether, and channeling destructive elements from a spiritual plane.

And that's the crux of it isn't it? You don't accept WoG or canon. You spin around in circles looking for ways to misrepresent what Blizzard states so you can demean and attack Blizzard employees. WoG is gets to decide how to label classes.

- - - Updated - - -

Chemicals that come from rotting corpses. And it's not "just chemicals", they explicitly cause DECAY and corrosion. Decay being dead organic matter, linking it with the dead. Clearly hinting at some form of necromancy.

Chemicals can cause decay... It's poison, it kills cells. There's nothing supernatural about it. There is bacteria in the guts of animals that decays organic matter. That doesn't make them necromancers. Brewing beer doesn't make Panderan into necromancers.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

And that's the crux of it isn't it?

Nope

You don't accept WoG or canon.

This is not entirely true. I do accept some canon things. I'm not going to cry because I don't accept all canon things though. I mean, you don't accept all canon things and you spin around in circles looking for ways to misrepresent what Blizzard states. You've referenced the Chronicle repeatedly and act like new lore supersedes old lore, but when I tell you undead don't have life because the Chronicle establishes that they don't, you ignore it. That art you're practicing. It's called hypocrisy.

You spin around in circles looking for ways to misrepresent what Blizzard states

No I don't. The whole class is literally centered around afflicting the living with necrotic afflictions, communing with astral entities from the astral Nether, summoning astral bodies from the astral Nether, binding astral bodies from the astral nether, channeling the energies of spirits from the astral Nether, and channeling destructive elements from a spiritual plane. I didn't establish that the class is centered around necromancy, Blizzard's employees did. I'm just looking for a way to stop Blizzard's employees from behaving dumb and acting as if warlocks can practice necromancy without being necromancers.

you can demean and attack Blizzard employees.

You're right. I can. I can and I will. I will until they stop being inconsistent and unreliable as liars are. I'll stop until Sean Copeland - who isn't even an author of WoW lore and doesn't have the ability to outright retcon the fact that warlocks are about demons, demonic powers, and the place demons are from - apologizes for lying to you and others when he claimed demons aren't the source of fel energy. I'll stop when he apologizes for convincing you that demonologists don't need to involve themselves with a demon in order to obtain an energy canon describes as demonic. See how nice I am?

WoG is gets to decide how to label classes.

WoG is gets? Please learn how to convey your point clearly.

[Tripzzz]

Chemicals can cause decay... It's poison, it kills cells. There's nothing supernatural about it. There is bacteria in the guts of animals that decays organic matter. That doesn't make them necromancers. Brewing beer doesn't make Panderan into necromancers.

Which chemicals cause decay? All of them? Which ones? Does beer cause decay? Alcohol is a chemical you know. You have to be more specific and provide evidence. The chemicals you previously mentioned(Putrescine and Cadaverine) come from dead bodies. We are talking about a magical created cloud that smell like rotting corpses and causes decay. Not the bacteria in the guts of animals. Because Necromancers dont actually exist in real life. Your argument is becoming extremely pathetic.

[Aucald]

I think this thread has meandered a bit too far from the original context of its original post. Return to the topic or it will be closed.