[Paladin VS Frost DK] - Do you love both like me? Details inside.

[Deleted]

You never had to, you usually used it near death, or if you were getting hard trained by you opponent

There's a huge difference. Right now a ret can survive with 3% HP and he doesn't have to worry about using bubble because he knows it'll pop automatically. Then the next time we "kill" him he will still have it and survive again.

If it wasn't like this, that same ret would have to use bubble the first time because otherwise he could die. Then the next CC chain or whatever we can kill him because he doesn't have bubble anymore.

If bubble wasn't this brainless we could also burst rets down without them expecting it or having time to react and bubble.

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If you read my post carefully i was talking about last season and 2.6kcr+ which was a safe glad cut off. Personally when i talk about PvP balance, i tend to refer to glad lvl game play, because ppl at that cr actually know their classes and can play to their maximum potential. For example, wars are easy win lets say around 2kcr, but when you are facing a glad cr war team, those wars are scary foe to face.

Our survivability consists of 1 bubble thats all, rest can be dispelled and does gets dispelled or SS/Purged the moment you use it, but only by good players, hence i dont consider 2.2k bracket when talking about class balance. Ppl still go for a Ret kill most of the time @ higher bracket, its a good example that Rets are far from having "unparralleled survivability"

Utility is good, but i wont call it the "best" but i guess its just a personal opinion, but Rets on par with Dks have the worst mobility in pvp, so we need utility.

Healing? we go oom after 4 casts, and no1 will let Ret hard cast while they train Ret, cuz of kick=dead.

Sir, if you are saying Rets are OP, then logically you are saying Ferals/FDKs/WW/Arms are MORE OP since they had higher % representation end of last season above 2.6k on US servers.

Every1 has insane burst dmg atm in game, and Ret is not even the highest burst spec atm, Enh/WW/Arms/Demo and list goes on.

It is cute that you believe that i rerolled Ret over night, I played Ret for almost 10 years, and I am Glad on my Ret from the past when Ret was not as good as it is now. Every season i actually participate i hit 2.4k+ no matter how good or how bad Ret was over the past 10 years, so my skill level does not change with class changed.

and when you say "your class is borken" it is purely ur opinion, i can say the same about BM/Enh/Lock and it would be my opinion too, based on most recent Blizzcon finals, but you do not see me jumping ppl whom i dont know saying their skill level is very little and they got carried by their class when i face them @ 2.5kcr + arena.

if you filter to 2.5kcr (Glad range) out of nowhere, Rets becomes only 4th most represented DPS on US, while FDK, Shadow, Feral above Rets.

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...lass_filter=12

I find it really hilarious how you choose to filter by 2k6+ and only in US because it's like the only filter that shows ret as not being the first DPS spec. Why wouldn't you show EU too and pick a more reasonable rating like 2k4+? EU has more and better players anyway.

"Rets being broken" is not his opinion, it's a fact that you can easily check. Saying BM or demo are op based on Blizzcon months ago just proves how little clue you have about this game.

BTW arenamate ladder is kinda fucked right now, it's missing players.

[Snegovik]

There's a huge difference. Right now a ret can survive with 3% HP and he doesn't have to worry about using bubble because he knows it'll pop automatically. Then the next time we "kill" him he will still have it and survive again.

If it wasn't like this, that same ret would have to use bubble the first time because otherwise he could die. Then the next CC chain or whatever we can kill him because he doesn't have bubble anymore.

If bubble wasn't this brainless we could also burst rets down without them expecting it or having time to react and bubble.

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I find it really hilarious how you choose to filter by 2k6+ and only in US because it's like the only filter that shows ret as not being the first DPS spec. Why wouldn't you show EU too and pick a more reasonable rating like 2k4+? EU has more and better players anyway.

"Rets being broken" is not his opinion, it's a fact that you can easily check. Saying BM or demo are op based on Blizzcon months ago just proves how little clue you have about this game.

BTW arenamate ladder is kinda fucked right now, it's missing players.

I showed it as an example how you can not simply post a link without an explanation, because they vary from rating to rating (i already said that in response to you). other guy posted 2.3k cr i posted 2.6 to show that without relevant explanation links can be biased. As i also wrote in my earlier response to you (not sure why u keep coming back to something i already wrote) the reason i was looking at 2.6k cr, i was looking for safe glad cut off, to decide whether i should push some more rating or stick to my current rating for Glad title in legion S1. Furthermore, i also explained the reason i look at glad cut off rating when talking about pvp balance, is because people @ 2.6kcr know how to play their classes very close to optimum compared to those ppl @ 2.2k cr, hence you can not discuss intended/class balance around players @ 2.2k who still learning their classes. a good example would be how other guy said that Ret's defensive abilities are superior, i said they are actually not since every D-cd we have can be SS/dispelled/Purged with an exception of long cd: Bubble; however, only ppl who know how to pvp dispel it from us. ppl at 2.2k dont bother, hence I talk about rather higher cr.

It is my personal opinion taking glads in my balance examples, but opinions vary.

The reason i selected US (once again going back to my original response to you) i am playing on US, hence i was looking for Glad cut off on US servers, not EU, that is why i remember that even Arms were higher represented in 3s than Rets above 2.6k in Legion S1.

Rets being broken, you need to define it, why you think so, what prove do you have. Simply because they have high representation in arena this early in a season, does not say much to honest. What matters is end of the season. A lot of ppl who pushed Glad last season are simply taking it easy atm and not even pushing Arena. So you can't simply post arena ladder during 1st week of arena and say "ok this class is popular, hence its broken and unbalanced". As i brought up, from a personal experience playing @ glad range last season, meleee like WW/FDK were by far in better shape than Rets, even arms in my opinion were better than Rets last season.

So when you say Rets are broken OP, it means then every melee in game is broken OP, to me its a l2play issue rather than a balance issue, especially coming from a mage, no offence. it is like me as Ret say "mages are broken" because they have an upper hand vs Ret, see my point? But i don't say it, since Mages is a counter to Rets, hence part of the way game works, rather than scream "mages are broken plz nerf them"

I was not serious about BM, Enh, Locks, i simply brought it up as an example of different opinions ppl may have based on their PoV, but it does not give grounding to others whose PoV does not match, to jump some1 and say they have little skills and get carried by their classes lmao only because their opinion does not match yours.


In terms of bubble, Good Rets dont simply forget about bubble, we use it as immune to CD to score a kill, so we still use it, and do not simply forget about it, but only very experienced Rets do such a risky move, because we can assess situation and tell if we can actually score a kill, see why i use higher xp players when talking about game balance? because their use their classes to the maximum potential not the way most players use, aka simply forget about bubble button

P.S. even before you could not burst down Rets lmao when Bubble was casted, since we could use it while being stunned, only if we got kicked we could not use it. A good Ret sees from a mile away your inc burst, so i highly doubt you could catch off guard a good Ret, since ppl train Rets in arena since Wrath.

[squeekinator]

If you read my post carefully i was talking about last season and 2.6kcr+ which was a safe glad cut off. Personally when i talk about PvP balance, i tend to refer to glad lvl game play, because ppl at that cr actually know their classes and can play to their maximum potential. For example, wars are easy win lets say around 2kcr, but when you are facing a glad cr war team, those wars are scary foe to face.

Our survivability consists of 1 bubble thats all, rest can be dispelled and does gets dispelled or SS/Purged the moment you use it, but only by good players, hence i dont consider 2.2k bracket when talking about class balance. Ppl still go for a Ret kill most of the time @ higher bracket, its a good example that Rets are far from having "unparralleled survivability"

Utility is good, but i wont call it the "best" but i guess its just a personal opinion, but Rets on par with Dks have the worst mobility in pvp, so we need utility.

Healing? we go oom after 4 casts, and no1 will let Ret hard cast while they train Ret, cuz of kick=dead.

Sir, if you are saying Rets are OP, then logically you are saying Ferals/FDKs/WW/Arms are MORE OP since they had higher % representation end of last season above 2.6k on US servers.

Every1 has insane burst dmg atm in game, and Ret is not even the highest burst spec atm, Enh/WW/Arms/Demo and list goes on.

It is cute that you believe that i rerolled Ret over night, I played Ret for almost 10 years, and I am Glad on my Ret from the past when Ret was not as good as it is now. Every season i actually participate i hit 2.4k+ no matter how good or how bad Ret was over the past 10 years, so my skill level does not change with class changed.

and when you say "your class is borken" it is purely ur opinion, i can say the same about BM/Enh/Lock and it would be my opinion too, based on most recent Blizzcon finals, but you do not see me jumping ppl whom i dont know saying their skill level is very little and they got carried by their class when i face them @ 2.5kcr + arena.

if you filter to 2.5kcr (Glad range) out of nowhere, Rets becomes only 4th most represented DPS on US, while FDK, Shadow, Feral above Rets.

http://www.arenamate.net/?region=US&...lass_filter=12

Using last seasons ladder to compare current class balance LUL. Rogues were really good last season, therefore they must still be OP right now because we all know, none of those rogues or warriors got to glad rating in the first few weeks and then sat rating when their specs got nerfed. That never happens.

And did you really just say Demo locks had higher burst damage that rets? lmfao yea all those demonology warlocks just running amok


"if you filter to 2.5kcr (Glad range) out of nowhere, Rets becomes only 4th most represented DPS on US, while FDK, Shadow, Feral above Rets."

LMAO Did you even look at your stats there bud? They're not 4th because there are less of them. There are 2 2500+ frost dks, 2 2500+ shadows, 2 2500+ ferals, and 2 2500+ rets. You're an idiot

[Snegovik]

Using last seasons ladder to compare current class balance LUL. Rogues were really good last season, therefore they must still be OP right now because we all know, none of those rogues or warriors got to glad rating in the first few weeks and then sat rating when their specs got nerfed. That never happens.

And did you really just say Demo locks had higher burst damage that rets? lmfao yea all those demonology warlocks just running amok


"if you filter to 2.5kcr (Glad range) out of nowhere, Rets becomes only 4th most represented DPS on US, while FDK, Shadow, Feral above Rets."

LMAO Did you even look at your stats there bud? They're not 4th because there are less of them. There are 2 2500+ frost dks, 2 2500+ shadows, 2 2500+ ferals, and 2 2500+ rets. You're an idiot

when original post was mage, it was end of last season, hence i was looking at the ladder at the current state at that time.

Demo lock has a much harder set up, but i have seen demo locks put up some crazy burst.

you really need to read my post, i showed 2.5k as an example how different ratings can be bias towards one or another PoV, hence you can not simply link a ladder @ specific rating without actually explaining your reasoning behind it (this was an example @ current season, it was not meant to actually prove anything but my point about dif cr=bias toward dif POV)

If you actually read my original post and the previous post (I guess you sir rather call others idiots, cuz you cant grasp meaning of the actual post, so what does it make you then I wonder) I explained the REASON I referred to 2.6k cr is because I remember seeing Arms having a higher representation in US above 2.6k, since I was looking @ safe glad cut off for US/horde, this is how I remember those stats, hence I brought it in my post. And if you ask why am I using 2.6k, well go back and read.
I do enjoy ppl posting random stuff and calling others name without actually reading the post properly, very good post sir. I do hope your other 51 posts hold more weight than one above.

[Hashtronaut]

They're both overpowered cancer so there's that.

Took the words right out of my fingers.

[squeekinator]

you really need to read my post, i showed 2.5k as an example how different ratings can be bias towards one or another PoV, hence you can not simply link a ladder @ specific rating without actually explaining your reasoning behind it (this was an example @ current season, it was not meant to actually prove anything but my point about dif cr=bias toward dif POV)

If you actually read my original post and the previous post (I guess you sir rather call others idiots, cuz you cant grasp meaning of the actual post, so what does it make you then I wonder) I explained the REASON I referred to 2.6k cr is because I remember seeing Arms having a higher representation in US above 2.6k, since I was looking @ safe glad cut off for US/horde, this is how I remember those stats, hence I brought it in my post. And if you ask why am I using 2.6k, well go back and read.
I do enjoy ppl posting random stuff and calling others name without actually reading the post properly, very good post sir. I do hope your other 51 posts hold more weight than one above.

You're right, showing one ladder at a certain rating can skew the data. Which is why my original post was the entirety of the ladder, not just a certain rating. And the entire arena ladder shows that rets are by far and away the most popular spec right now right up there with frost DK's, because theyre both extremely powerful burst damage specs with little to no setup required.

And yes, Arms HAD more representation. At the beginning of the season they were one of the most popular melee because of their damage output. Once they got nerfed their active numbers plummeted. The only ones that stayed at high rating were the ones who deserved to be there or the ones who sat rating. Since late 7.0 into 7.1 we've seen the emergence of ret and its just getting more ridiculous.

While every class is capable of doing high dps, only a few are able to blow people up in a few globals with burst damage. These classes are destro locks, ret pallys, frost dks, and arguably WW monks, boomkins, and frost mages (turbo can annihilate someone as well but thats a different discussion for a different day).
The reason pallys and frost dk's are so popular is because their burst takes 0 setup. At least with warlocks, boomkins, and frost mages there is some setup required for their burst windows. With Rets you get 3-5 holy power, pop wings, hoj something, and shit on it. Low on health? As long as you're not playing a priest you're fine. Bubble will bring you back up 20% health, auto trigger, and let you keep mongoing doing 100% damage through its duration.

Ret is the ultimate mongo, requires 0 thinking, and the most challenging decision making is which target you want to HoJ and blow up.

[Maduk]

They're both overpowered cancer so there's that.

Said the frostmage? wut?

How are Rets or FDKs after those nerfs still cancer?
Rets do so little dmg (outside wings) after the latest nerf, its like hitting someone with those foam swords.

The reason pallys and frost dk's are so popular is because their burst takes 0 setup. At least with warlocks, boomkins, and frost mages there is some setup required for their burst windows.

FDK and Rets burst take 0 setup because they have the least uptime on their target.

With Rets you get 3-5 holy power, pop wings, hoj something, and shit on it. Low on health? As long as you're not playing a priest you're fine. Bubble will bring you back up 20% health, auto trigger, and let you keep mongoing doing 100% damage through its duration.

Ret is the ultimate mongo, requires 0 thinking, and the most challenging decision making is which target you want to HoJ and blow up.

Legion dropped our sustain so hard (+ our shitty PvP-template) that the only window were we can do damage is with wings.
Every paladin-player would like to have that changed...

The latest nerf also nerfed our only hardhitting ability (JV) outside of wings (and only with lucky DP procs). So you only have to trinket HoJ if the paladin pops wings.

Even if he pops wings, just kite him. Isn't that hard.

[Deleted]

Said the frostmage? wut?

How are Rets or FDKs after those nerfs still cancer?
Rets do so little dmg (outside wings) after the latest nerf, its like hitting someone with those foam swords.



FDK and Rets burst take 0 setup because they have the least uptime on their target.




Legion dropped our sustain so hard (+ our shitty PvP-template) that the only window were we can do damage is with wings.
Every paladin-player would like to have that changed...

The latest nerf also nerfed our only hardhitting ability (JV) outside of wings (and only with lucky DP procs). So you only have to trinket HoJ if the paladin pops wings.

Even if he pops wings, just kite him. Isn't that hard.

Rets and FDKs are both top 3 dps specs in arena, and neither of them require a brain to play. Mages are not only the hardest class to play in the game, but we're mediocre and we're getting deleted in 7.1.5.

Ret's damage and utility is retarded, with so little skill or thought involved. Don't even have to think about when to use bubble, and passively remove poisons constantly. Also remove CC every 25s because that's balanced (this is like the most skill intensive part of rets, but it doesn't even matter that much because the CD is so low). The wings bullshit you said is obviously false, they can randomly kill you in a stun.

Also rets weren't nerfed recently, I don't even know what you're talking about. They weren't any ret changes in the end of season hotfix.

[Yhcti]

Ret + survival hunter is meta until 2.4 then you get farmed. I don't personally know how ret plays this expo but frost dk is very bursty. I'm looking for a strong solo pvp class for random 2 and 3s also but in leaning towards outlaw rogue or arms warrior

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Guy above should watch some streamers. Venruki, snutz, ziko, few others wreck as mage. Glacial spike or arcane do ridiculous damage that land game changing hits. I'd say mages are on par with rogues so not uber op, but definitely glad and r1 viable

[Deleted]

When i checked a week ago 2.6k + US ladder using arena mate website, FDK were top, then WW + Ferals, then Arms, and only then Rets (melee speaking)

Statistics only shows part of the true. Many (and I mean alot!) have rolled ret , and not everyone is good at it.
So the question you should ask yourself is "what am I best at playing, and does that fit into the comps I'm running with my partners?".

Not everything is "that simple" that you can just look at numbers and make some sort of conclusion.

[Maduk]

Rets and FDKs are both top 3 dps specs in arena, and neither of them require a brain to play. Mages are not only the hardest class to play in the game, but we're mediocre and we're getting deleted in 7.1.5.

Wow, seriously? Where is Mage hard to play?

Ret's damage and utility is retarded, with so little skill or thought involved.

Jeah, utility is bad for a class focused around support and doing dmg when our CD is up.

Don't even have to think about when to use bubble

Then you are a bad.

and passively remove poisons constantly

Will get somewhat changed in 7.1.5, so wheres the problem?

Also remove CC every 25s because that's balanced

Only on teammates. When we can't peel outside of wings, we need utility to help our team.

The wings bullshit you said is obviously false, they can randomly kill you in a stun.

Did depend on DP procs (20% for a free HP spender after spending HP). In 1 HoJ you can only perform 3 attacks (without crusade). Which all must proc DP and must also crit to get to around 2mil damage. The chance is pretty low and now with the JV nerf not even possible (dmg-wise).

Also rets weren't nerfed recently, I don't even know what you're talking about. They weren't any ret changes in the end of season hotfix.

There were, but not listed on MMOC:
https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/ne...es-december-19