This is why you can't take legendary complaints seriously...

[cFortyfive]

Apparently he did practice his rotation over night and we got rusty and forgot how to play over night.

Exactly especially in a game that is all known in the gaming scene for everyone putting so much weight on personal improvement - they really just trained hard and got better at executing those rotations
the thread creation history of the op is golden though. Even that random dh could just get another 10% with the right one.

[Viking]

And in a competitive atmosphere where a lot of people are around the same skill level, and it's a reasonably high one, it most assuredly does make a difference to have your best in slot vs not having it. You are full of shit op. Just because you are some mediocre casual and don't care, don't try and high horse your bullshit to people who do.

[Mykk]

This is true.

Bad player will never increase their performance to good level no matter what legendaries they get. Many players really think that their lack of dmg is because of they got bad legendaries which is not true. Diffrence having bis legendaries is from 50-100k dps and if player A is doing 200-300k DPS with 880ilvl gear he won't be doing +400k with bis legendaries.

[Deleted]

And in a competitive atmosphere where a lot of people are around the same skill level, and it's a reasonably high one, it most assuredly does make a difference to have your best in slot vs not having it. You are full of shit op. Just because you are some mediocre casual and don't care, don't try and high horse your bullshit to people who do.

It's just that most people in that competitive scene are not playing on a reasonably high level. Only a few are. Many people complaining here are prentending like they are - but at closer look (like the OP did) they're just sub-50% scrubs. Majority of us falls into that category.

In those cases, the raid (holistically) has so many other "low-hanging fruit" to improve on, having a legendary in one slot doesn't make any difference and shouldn't be the sole and entire focus of your improvement efforts. It's not a big deal.

The minority/elite who are in the 90% bracket - well that's where not having a correct legendary becomes a real issue and not having the right one can ruin your chances for improving your guilds ranking. It's a big deal.

The root of the problem is of course the fact that implementing throughput legendaries was incredibly stupid idea to being with.

[kamuimac]

And thats the problem and why people arent taken seriously, many bads believe the BiS legendary is the magical 150-200K DPS they are missing, when 99% is their own performance, same as watching people in 875 ilvl that cant pull over 250K and blame "legendaries".
.

i have this feeling very often when i read those threads that people really belive that geting 1 legendary will boost their dps by 300k absolutely hillarious

[Servasus]

Bad player+no legendaries = bad performance
Bad player+best legendaries = better than bad but still bad performance
Good player+no legendary = good performance
Good player+best legendaries = better than good performance.

This is the only truthful post here. Math proves you wrong every time, OP. If two players of the same skill level have different legendaries, the one with the better legendaries will perform better. Point blank. End of effing story.

[Deleted]

And while I agree there are some valid concerns from a small percentage of the player base that pushes progression it never fails when I see a "I got two crap legendaries this is unacceptable!" complaints you inevitably find the player looks like this:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/20407215/10/

Look I know its not popular opinion, but again, BiS legendaries are not going to magically make a shitty player good. This is a prime example of why Blizzard has to decide carefully how to handle changing this system, if a change is even warranted at all.

For the sake of being open and transparent I have one BiS and one crap. I am still a middle of the pack player who hovers on the border of 70-80% percentile. I am under no delusion that getting a second BiS is going to magically catapult me into the 90th percentile on fights. Practicing my rotation and building overall gear stats is what will help me inch closer to that top level of play.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/18063311/10/

People are shit, so what?

I main a Havoc DH and got the BS ring but am missing the 2nd best legendary, the belt (which is BiS on Odyn for example). I do 462k DPS on mythic Guarm when on a Patchwerk fight of the same length (240 seconds, no variation) I should be doing 471k in theory - even though the dude charges around several times. Comparing my log to the "perfect simulated rotation", there is absolutely nothing I could improve. I parsed at the 75 percentile simply because 90% of the players above me have the belt (the rest has good RNG which happens for Havoc and is expected). Even though I Play significantly better than basically anyone in the top20 of that fight (Fury use, momentum uptime and use, uptime in melee range etc.). If I did not have the ring, I would barely be able to beat 400k DPS.

It is simply impossible to overcome or even come close to the output that some legendaries provide. Having both legendaries is the difference between 410 and 500k DPS, having only one is half of that. That is simply unacceptable in any competetive/progression scenario.

[MasterHamster]

I don't take those arguments seriously because there has always been some metric these people use in the magical land of

"2 players of equal gear, skill, class, spec, talents, professions, racials, experience... BUT ONE HAD <X> SO THE OTHER GETS BENCHED!!!!!!!"

So apparently not even mythic world first guilds are benching people due to legendaries, but for the sake of amusement people should keep doing it. A tiny few even realizes that this is nothing new, and if legendarys weren't ingame it'd just be something else. Remember when you weren't competitive unless you had Leatherworking for drums? Melee in ICC not being competitive without Deathbringer's Will?


Legitimate feedback is about clear power discrepancies between legendarys that has massive power surges compared to others, to the point where anything but these feel like trash. Making up some hyperbolic theoretical <all things equal but x> that has pretty much never happened to anyone is nothing but a bandwagon argument to complain about RNG. Heaven forbid luck in an MMORPG

But yeah, things not being 100% equal does hurt some people. Some handle it a bit better than others. For example a friend of mine got near BiS trinket in a heroic wf to 880. But le gasp, instead of going to the forums being a salty bitch about RNG, titanforging and 'raid gear being obsolete' and WAAAAAAH I congratulated him and kept playing.

[Deleted]

This is the only truthful post here. Math proves you wrong every time, OP. If two players of the same skill level have different legendaries, the one with the better legendaries will perform better. Point blank. End of effing story.

The point is: isn't good performance enough to clear content? We really all need to be better then good?

If you want to be better then good, in WoW and in life, aren't you supposed to carry the burden of it (in WoW it means farm the shit out of m+ and yes even rerolling)?

[Puri]

I don't get what you want to say.
A bad player with performance increasing legendaries will perform better than a bad player without them.
A good player with performance increasing legendaries will perform better than a good player without them.

And what people complain about is that the distribution of the legendaries is completely random and players with the same skill and itemlevel will perform differently depending on if they won the legendary lottery or not.

[Deleted]

they should remove or disable legendaries in raids.
is it denial or trolling? obviously OP thinks they make a difference because he wants to preserve his situation.

[Deleted]

I don't take those arguments seriously because there has always been some metric these people use in the magical land of

"2 players of equal gear, skill, class, spec, talents, professions, racials, experience... BUT ONE HAD <X> SO THE OTHER GETS BENCHED!!!!!!!"

So apparently not even mythic world first guilds are benching people due to legendaries, but for the sake of amusement people should keep doing it. A tiny few even realizes that this is nothing new, and if legendarys weren't ingame it'd just be something else. Remember when you weren't competitive unless you had Leatherworking for drums? Melee in ICC not being competitive without Deathbringer's Will?


Legitimate feedback is about clear power discrepancies between legendarys that has massive power surges compared to others, to the point where anything but these feel like trash. Making up some hyperbolic theoretical <all things equal but x> that has pretty much never happened to anyone is nothing but a bandwagon argument to complain about RNG. Heaven forbid luck in an MMORPG

But yeah, things not being 100% equal does hurt some people. Some handle it a bit better than others. For example a friend of mine got near BiS trinket in a heroic wf to 880. But le gasp, instead of going to the forums being a salty bitch about RNG, titanforging and 'raid gear being obsolete' and WAAAAAAH I congratulated him and kept playing.

1. Comparing legendaries that make up up to 20% of your output to good weapons/trinkets/whatever in the past, that maybe did 3-5% more than someone else combined, is stupid. Either you are completely oblivious to how strong certain legendaries are or you are ignoring that on purpose to make your terrible analogy to the past work.

2. The world first guilds said that they did not bench players, but that several players switched characters because of legendaries. Also, in most progress oriented guilds (it does not matter if #1 or #1000), players don't have to be forced out, they sit themselves in favor of someone who will be significantly better on a given fight, if possible. All hunters in my current raid said they would only play on Guarm if there were no better options available, because their class sucks on that fight. I would have done the same as a Havoc DH if I did not have the BiS ring (no belt tho).

3. There is a difference in terms of enjoyment and the feeling of accomplishment if you are not just "carried" by your team, but are able to contribute and perform. Killing a Boss, knowing that some players/specs had to do insanely good because your gear just does not allow you to carry your own weight feels terrible, even if the boss dies.

4. For most dedicated raiders, Performance and getting better and competing against oneself and others is part of the fun. If you are not able to do that on a reasonable level just because RNGesus hates you and you don't have any way to influence that, it sucks. That may not be the case for you or others, but it matters to a lot of players.

There is zero reason that the current legendary system has to exist in the exact way it is now. None. There is no reason that
- super dedicated players don't have 7-8 legendaries already (eliminating RNG with enough effort) and/or
- you cannot target legendaries and/or
- you cannot trade/change legendaries and/or
- there are fewer but more balanced legendaries (or just utility) and/or
- legendaries don't "fix" broken class design
- and many other reasonable improvements

We can discuss about a lot of things, but I have yet to see someone defending the current system as it is right now in its entirety. And we are not even talking about the bugs (free legendaries for people that already got one early, why not?) and the blatant lieing (there is no cap...there is one and we removed it...now we did for real...or did we?). This is all a hot mess.

[Deleted]

I have 5 and my main is basically sitting at the very top edge of where someone seemingly can be without any good ones.

Main-spec Holy.

Do note the ret ranking on mythic Guarm progression + farm, feelsbadman

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/14127880/12/

[SirBeef]

Even better; 90% with a good legendairy and on heroic difficulty.

Being in the 90th percentile is good regardless of what you thing. No one ever complains about being in the top 10% of anything.

[Fiftyonred]

UH is hardly the only spec where one legendary is an enormous boost. Ret, Boomkin, Assassination are three that I can name off the top of my head where a BiS legendary can make 10% or more dps increase (cloak for Ret, helm for boomkin, bracers for assassination).

10% is still within the margin of what human error cannot make up for. I grouped with an almost identical Mutilate rogue last night with boots and bracers for sin, and I only have the cloak. Yet, I was above him by 30-40K on boss fights. Execution always beats gear.

[SirBeef]

I don't get what you want to say.
A bad player with performance increasing legendaries will perform better than a bad player without them.
A good player with performance increasing legendaries will perform better than a good player without them.

And what people complain about is that the distribution of the legendaries is completely random and players with the same skill and itemlevel will perform differently depending on if they won the legendary lottery or not.

The common belief on MMOC is good players would be replace by bad players with legendaries. There was a thread a while ago about being kicked/replaced for not having a legendary, and it seemed overwhelmingly that was not happening. I think he is saying that legendaries do not make you better.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the only truthful post here. Math proves you wrong every time, OP. If two players of the same skill level have different legendaries, the one with the better legendaries will perform better. Point blank. End of effing story.

I bolded the important part. The prevailing belief, leading up to and currently according to many posts I've read, is that legendaries will allow bad players to replace good players that do not have them or their good ones in raids. Which is not happening.

[Amantino]

Of course someone who only raids heroic will be shit at the game. Can you atleast link logs to a relevant example?

[lordatomsk]

how about lets just look at how this affects alts or fully switching to a new class, in almost all cases you are looking at a rough 5% dps increase so 2 legs 5+% probably not 10% except in certain cases now add the +5% from the 35th trait when you add all this up you get 10-15% dps so if i want to switch main and level 1-110 new toon i could power gear get some help from friends and my guild get to the same item level but i would not have 35 traits i would at best have all 3 gold traits and in all likely hood no legs or not bis if the class i switched to is close in dps to what i was playing, at our current dps 300k im losing 30k dps so im 270k on average or 400k range im 40k down at 360k this is alot of dps for a guild to lose to mainly rng and not everyone can switch main if the guild has half of the dps decide they are bored with the class and want to switch even if they funnel gear to them at 5 players changing at 300k you lose 150k dps to rng and a time wall for artifact knowledge that no guild can help you get past 150k dps if you count geting all the drops you need and not being lower i lvl after 2 weeks, it is more likely your guild loses 200-300k if a just a few players want to switch to a new main for weeks. Out side of pre wrath or the legandary ring in wod it has never been this bad to switch mains or even have alts at a comparable level.

[kamuimac]

how about lets just look at how this affects alts or fully switching to a new class, in almost all cases you are looking at a rough 5% dps increase so 2 legs 5+% probably not 10% except in certain cases now add the +5% from the 35th trait when you add all this up you get 10-15% dps so if i want to switch main and level 1-110 new toon i could power gear get some help from friends and my guild get to the same item level but i would not have 35 traits i would at best have all 3 gold traits and in all likely hood no legs or not bis if the class i switched to is close in dps to what i was playing, at our current dps 300k im losing 30k dps so im 270k on average or 400k range im 40k down at 360k this is alot of dps for a guild to lose to mainly rng and not everyone can switch main if the guild has half of the dps decide they are bored with the class and want to switch even if they funnel gear to them at 5 players changing at 300k you lose 150k dps to rng and a time wall for artifact knowledge that no guild can help you get past 150k dps if you count geting all the drops you need and not being lower i lvl after 2 weeks, it is more likely your guild loses 200-300k if a just a few players want to switch to a new main for weeks. Out side of pre wrath or the legandary ring in wod it has never been this bad to switch mains or even have alts at a comparable level.

if your going to switch mains you will be so much behind on gear and ap that legendaries matter even less.

[Synthium]

And yet here you are posting random logs from a player who got those parses probably not logged by himself and in god knows what scenario. Look, I personally have some gray parses when something goes wrong, and orange parses of 95+ which is when I go full tryhard mode, which is an indicator of what I am CAPABLE of doing. There is a reason guilds ask you to link the logs of your choice when applying. Typing player's name in warcraft logs is in no way, shape or form a correct indicator of a player's maximum potential or something.