You are players, not designers.

[Eapoe]

Meaning you don't get a saying in which classes should come up, what should be done storywise, what balance changes should be implemented etc. It seems to me that hell of a lot of you play the game 10% of the time, and 90% think of what should be changed and then post random nonsense. It really is nonsense, most of the topics here. Both stupid and funny. And you whine about devs not talking to you. Geez, if I was head at Blizz, all employees would be strictly forbidden from entering forums as that is a very bad time spent. It is not worth it to dig through so much bullshit to come to that 1 comment per month that makes sense and is worth thinking about.

The game is what it is, people have made it really good and they are continuing to do so. Enjoy their work and don't presume that you would be doing it better. Just playyyyyy the game and enjoy. That's it. That's all you gotta do. Now go and be healed of this "millions of players' experience should be changed because I think so" mentality.

Consumers always get an opinion of what they want and don't want in a product. Whether those opinions are listened to or not is entirely on the makers of said product. The option to express our opinions WQ's given to us by customer feedback posts as well as, in the case of WoW, ptr bug testing/design implementation/overall changes.
This does not mean people should expect their ideas to be heard or listened to, but the outlet was given and people will express their feelings on any given subject.

[ls-]

It's not surprising at all. Deadlines get tight and the pressure is on, people working late and they just try to get it done as quickly as possible meaning things like documentation go by the wayside.

A lot of places accept having key man risk because it's much easier to rely on one key guy that handles a piece of the project than it is to have it well documented with multiple people trained on it. If budget and time is tight relying on one key guy to just power through consistently is a lot more efficient in the short to medium term. In the long term of course you're boned when they leave which leads to a month or two of lag until the next guy figures everything out. And remember, many of these places start as small startups with limited resources and huge pressure. Again it's no shock that documentation falls by the wayside.

It's messy but it can actually be efficient.

Yeah, some companies do it this way.

But, TBH, we, as a team of 8, worked quite well w/o any documentation in R&D department, and R&D code is quite confusing to say the least For internal use brief comments around messy/confusing/tricky blocks are more than enough to minimise "the lag" when management is swapping teams and/or hiring new programmers. IMHO, good function, class, var, etc naming scheme is way more important than anything more sophisticated.

P.S. Agile dev practices are cancer

[Sastank]

The internet is full of professionals of all relevant occupations who know what's better for any given company in any given genre. Haven't you been on reddit/MMOC ever? :P /s

Also, e-politicians are the funniest shit I've ever seen. For real.

[Kreeshak]

As I said in another thread there are plenty of players, that are way more experienced in WoW than some single developers. There ideas are better than the developer ideas. The only reason they are not developers themselves, is because more often than not they lack other skills, like constructive criticism, working as a team, technical skills, funds.

To showcase how innovative players are, they took the RTS genre, and the transformed it to MOBA the most played genre out there. What if that lone player/developer who dreamed of DOTA was told to "shut up player, you are no developer"? Yeah you are wrong.

Also Collyer brothers, innovated and developed at high school, in their garage, multi million sales football manager game because they wanted to play it with their friends. What if we told them back then "shut up player, you are no developer just play kick-off or sensible soccer and get over it"?

[Himora]

If they are clueless, kindly make a team and make us a better game. There are many here who think they would do a better job. You will earn enough money to not have to work ever again. I promise to buy a copy if it is remotely as good as wow.

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No, you are wrong. It's not passion about the game, it's being spoiled. I'm passionate about many things, however that is not a subject of this conversation.

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Problem is that people do expect the game exactly the way they want it. It's not: "what do you guys think about this change because of that which would improve this?", it's: "you suck, this is not the way i want this to work, it has to be changed or i quit".

Developers have an option to be active on forums. However they (as anyone) have limited time, so they have to calculate if that time is well spent by being active on forums. Merely a glance on the list of topics is enough for any sane person to figure out that it's a mess and the time should be spent working on the game and discussing changes with people who actually have something to say. To put it more simply: if you want devs active on forums, you have to give them a reason to be. None of us really want a developer wasting his time to calm spoiled brats. Because in that time he could actually do something for the game.

These wow devs never made the game... (RIP Blizzard North).. They are merely piggy-backing on the treasure made many years ago. These Developers are pretty bad at what they do, especially the PVP & Class design teams.. as usual the world & art team kicked ass.

[De Lupe]

your wrong I AM THE Client I and every other client pay there wages Thus they design the way I and everyone wants not how there ego is.

It's cute how you think that.

It's their game and you pay them for PERMISSION to play it.

[cFortyfive]

WoD you hate? THEY LISTENED TO YOU PEOPLE. They done what you wanted. They removed flying and now you whine about it.

Well at least you already have one quality in common with rich oil barons from the deserts.

To showcase how innovative players are, they took the RTS genre, and the transformed it to MOBA the most played genre out there. What if that lone player/developer who dreamed of DOTA was told to "shut up player, you are no developer"? Yeah you are wrong.

There are more than enough adequate examples out there. You might want to believe 16 pages the op just produced drivel.

[Derpleton]

We are customers we pay money for the product WE want. If Blizzard does not provide it then there will be no customers and no profit and no WoW.

[Nakotsu]

It's cute how you think that.

It's their game and you pay them for PERMISSION to play it.

It is Cute how you think that.

I don't pay for permission to play nothing. You either make it the way I want or you don't get my money.

[TheVaryag]

Meaning you don't get a saying in which classes should come up, what should be done storywise, what balance changes should be implemented etc. It seems to me that hell of a lot of you play the game 10% of the time, and 90% think of what should be changed and then post random nonsense. It really is nonsense, most of the topics here. Both stupid and funny. And you whine about devs not talking to you. Geez, if I was head at Blizz, all employees would be strictly forbidden from entering forums as that is a very bad time spent. It is not worth it to dig through so much bullshit to come to that 1 comment per month that makes sense and is worth thinking about.

The game is what it is, people have made it really good and they are continuing to do so. Enjoy their work and don't presume that you would be doing it better. Just playyyyyy the game and enjoy. That's it. That's all you gotta do. Now go and be healed of this "millions of players' experience should be changed because I think so" mentality.

"Successful companies ask for feedback so they can deliver a better quality product that best meets the needs of their consumer base. If you stopped offering players an avenue for feedback, many would simply stop playing.

Imagine a restaurant that told you that it didn't want feedback about the food that you just ate. That is what you are advocating. "

To quote Celista above.

Exactly what they said, you're telling people who have played this game for potentially 12 years, SINCE the beginning we're not allowed to criticize the game we might just know better than the developers themselves? Developers, who have changed their ideas so often, and It's not even the same devs from 12 years ago, half or even more of the devs that worked on vanila/tbc/wrath are gone... and It shows by how the game has gone since Cataclysm.


Players play the game more, the develoeprs don't play It as much as we do, and can't know It better, they just see the numbers, we see what the numbers actually do.

And I hope you're never Blizzard's CEO then as you'd ruin the company. The excuse that "They tried, they made the game good, the effort should be rewarded" yes, It should... good effort should, I'm not gonna give pity compliments to Blizz like "Hey you did great!...But 90 % of this sucks, sorry" that's just honesty, brutal honesty and reality of life.

Some of us could do It better, obviously one players opinion shouldn't affect the game, but If that same opinions aligns with the opinions of other players, then there's clearly a point to It.

Players are the best critics, we play the game, a lot. They give us the chance to criticize their game, because we want It to be better, and Blizzard Is good to let us do that, they want us to give them reasonable, structured criticism, not trolls yelling on forums that something is bad and... then not elaborating why or how. We criticize and "Hate" on It to make It better, that's why people do that, despite playing the game still, those people are usually on the edge of leaving, and want things to change, and If they don't they -will- leave If a new player comes to Legion they might be mesmerized, enticed by all the flashy new stuff, excited, and claim It's a 10/10 game, best ever.

But then an experienced player, whose played for 12 years on the same game, every expansion, every week and month and even perhaps day says "It's okay.. but It's not great, better then Cataclysm, Mists and Warlords, but Isn't better then how TBC or Wrath was and here are my reasons and Indepth explenations:"... while the new player has nothing, no explaining, just says "IT'S GREAT!" It's nothing but child wonder that every new player gets. It passes over time, and you see beyond the veil of that wonder.

Whose opinion would you value?

[Deleted]

It is Cute how you think that.

I don't pay for permission to play nothing. You either make it the way I want or you don't get my money.

Soo.. I guess you're just here to discuss the hypothetical situations then?
Look, I get the "I'm the customer" angle, I do. But it's not quite the way it works anymore - it sure used to with brick & mortar service shops down the main-street of your town.
And while the sentiment of "putting customers first" should still be there, it just doesn't function like that on individual level for services that are designed and pushed out to millions.

You can scream "but I'm the customer!" until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't compel them to listen to you. Or act based on your feedback. You are - well, the consumer. Not the producer.

You choice is to not consume things that you're not happy about. That's about it.
So let's just drop this "I'm the customer, I pay, they NEED to listen to me" -bullshit. They need to provide good after market customer care - but that is not equal to jumping to serve each of their x-million customers wishes.

So yes, vote with your wallet and leave. Type in a flaming exit poll.

But that's it. That is the extent of your consumer power in this case

[Deficineiron]

Successful companies ask for feedback so they can deliver a better quality product that best meets the needs of their consumer base. If you stopped offering players an avenue for feedback, many would simply stop playing.

Imagine a restaurant that told you that it didn't want feedback about the food that you just ate. That is what you are advocating.

and at the mass-market level, is this such a bad idea, versus deriving data from company-initiated polls, participation.completion patterns, and review of sales patterns and trends?

for a niche product then perhaps player feedback would be more important, but for something on this scale, the actual written feedback is going to be from fringe players (the most active/dedicated) and will typically contradict itself completely when taken in aggregate.

Smarter is to create 'feedback channels' for those players so they feel they are being asked for feedback but then to round-bin it quietly.

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"Players aren't devs."

That's okay. Most people suspect devs these days aren't players.

there have been some changes made and features/items made in the game over the years that convinced me that some people involved in that process did NOT play the game-aspect involved in it.

one easy one - the original engineering bolt gun was able to one-shot groups of players at the lower end of its original level range. I want to say it took them well over a year to modify this.

[Deleted]

Imagine a restaurant that told you that it didn't want feedback about the food that you just ate. That is what you are advocating.

Sure, but, in this context that restaurant would have to be a place that serves couple of million daily. Not just a corner restaurant.
So - McDonald's for example. Let's say you think Big Mac should really be a vegetarian burger and you're very passionate about this.
You can complain all you want to the local shift manager - you leave your feedback to him daily - but nothing happens, he just keep apologizing and giving you reimbursements and telling you they can't really change the Big Mac just like that.. .. you're pretty annoyed by this, so you complain on facebook, twitter erc.
Still nothing - why not? You're the paying customer! There are others just like you!

So know that is a bad analogy - but so are many others in this thread. Remember that we're talking about digital, mass market product with millions of daily users.
Not a corner restaurant that is dependent on your physical feedback.

I believe Blizzard has never said they don't want feedback. On the contrary, they do. We (the players, customers) are very bad at providing good, actionable feedback though, so they simply can't listen to all of us. They listen to certain theorycrafters, they listen to good actionable posts that their CMs manage to fish out of the stream of noise, they listen to their own data, they listen to their exit polls - and they collect some sort of generic dissection of "community opinion" (i.e. "what is the noise all about this time?")

[Deficineiron]

Sure, but, in this context that restaurant would have to be a place that serves couple of million daily. Not just a corner restaurant.
So - McDonald's for example. Let's say you think Big Mac should really be a vegetarian burger and you're very passionate about this.
You can complain all you want to the local shift manager - you leave your feedback to him daily - but nothing happens, he just keep apologizing and giving you reimbursements and telling you they can't really change the Big Mac just like that.. .. you're pretty annoyed by this, so you complain on facebook, twitter erc.

right, have to look at a/b and wow as McMMO, as I allude to in the post above yours. mass market feedback systems are a totally different thing. I could argue that the type of player who is on gamer forums is mainly important to them due to the higher avg revenue per customer they get from them. otherwise, from a business point of view, they are far too much trouble to be worth it.

[Deficineiron]

McDonalds is gonna change the Big Mac based on my input that I want it with pork and jelly? A Michelin Star cook is gonna add more ketchup and bake his meal in cheese because of my feedback?

Oh wait...we are again at the point of not any feedback, but "reasonable"

Also when it comes to cooks / restaurants and feedback: http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=special_orders

barring a very large outcry over something, mcdonalds likely is more concerned with their own internal product testing, limited release (geography.time) tests, sales performance and promo response rates, etc. run-of-the-mill feedback likely is hopelessly convoluted and self-contradicting when taken in aggregate.

also preparation ingredients/process are a huge issue- they need to make food that can be legally sold for human consumption with enough taste (or extra salt) that humans will tend to actually eat it as cheaply as possible, and minimize to the degree possible in-store labor to sell same.

the details of course are food vs video games but the broader concerns of a mass-market product company have a lot in common, and I think looking at a brand like MCD can be useful when trying to understand where a/b is on some of these topics.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

OP.. shhhhh... shhhhhh..

Let the sheep scream bloody murder and feel important. It keeps them in line.

(Thanks for your Legion box purpase and any months you had subbed. If you didn't do either thanks for complaining on a WoW fan site that keeps the community moving and gets more eyes on the game without us spending a dime!)

[Deficineiron]

Totally understood, which is why I also provided the star cook as an example, but yeah...I am swinging to extremes in the spectrum. Yeah, McDonalds feeds 100 millions every day (maybe a billion?), Blizzard "only" 5-10 million, but those are both very high numbers. Specific feedback on bugs helps, but then there are broad issues like "should we fly" - and on some of them you as a company (and dev) just have to have the last word.

I really don't understand why people are butthurt over the statement "You are players not devs", (but I guess in a way I totally understand it, because nowadays everybody thinks they should be heard and their opinion just cannot be wrong).

Yes, not all players are devs, but (despite what others claim) I believe that all devs are players. Maybe I should add a disclaimer that by dev I mean the people who program and design territory and encounters. A guy like Chris Metzen (who develops a story or questchains) prooooooobably doesn't need to be a player, but it helps.

As an aside, I am, since my posts on this thread today, getting McDonalds advertisments popping up at the top of mmo-c page, language-localized to my location.

[Hellrime]

Yet we have have topics created by individuals who think they speak for the developers like this. It is an even more useless thread created by someone who most likely just stumbled through their first C++ course and now thinks they have the inside track. Unfortunately you are completely wrong. All feedback, whether asinine or awesome is useful feedback. Companies that deal mostly with technology have a greater responsibility to bridge the gap between the technical and non-technical. Just because one person doesn't know what they are trying to say technically it doesn't make them stupid or their suggestion, they just don't know how to put it succinctly or in a way that is completely understandable. It is exactly the reason the forum moderators and commenters exist, they bridge the gap between the technical and non-technical.

Being in the tech industry and a programmer myself, I fully understand that there must be interpreters in this aspect. That there is no such thing as stupid feedback, as most customers have absolutely no clue on what happens on the back end or how to achieve the results they want. Of course there are the completely useless suggestions, not stupid, just not enough data to interpret what someone is trying to get across. I wouldn't even say this particular post is stupid, it just falls dangerously close to the most useless of posts, which is telling people they are somehow wrong to make suggestions, but offering no insight about how to improve on making said suggestions. All I get from it is the OP most likely has taken some intro to programming courses and built the "Hello World!" program, and now thinks everyone doesn't know what they're talking about. Any public facing company has a responsibility to the stock holders and customers for said product, with that in mind there is no such thing as a stupid suggestion.

[Deleted]

If it wasn't for player ideas and feedback and Blizzard doing a great job, in general, of listening to their players, none of their games would have been what it is now and they wouldn't have been nearly as successfull.

Designers are pretty much people that love games, brainstorm, and have ideas for games, just like a lot of us. Some good ideas, some horrible ideas, again, just like us. Now, if we are talking about artists or programmers, then yes, those are jobs that are much more specialized. But, really, anyone with a brain, creativity and some insight in game mechanics can come up with perfectly fine ideas that work well within a certain game.

You are sort of right, though. A lot of ideas from players come from frustration about a certain element of the game. Most of the times, those ideas are dumb and often focus on a single aspect of the game without even thinking about how such an idea or change would affect the game as a whole. A lot of people don't see the bigger picture, which game designers (usually) do.

So while I agree with you to some degree, players can absolutely have good ideas or valid input about game design. Things aren't as black and white as you make them out to be.

[Deleted]

I am a player, not a designer.

A new mantra! Thanks.