Thread: My Elune Theory

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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    If Elune created the naaru or the first naaru, my headcanon will be that Elune ultimately created demons as well. Like, maybe she indirectly created demons by creating naaru who can bleed out Light and Void energies when they're in a darkened state or can become unstable and become....errrr...nether naaru.

    Since demons are astral entities because they're from an astral dimension, demonology might very well be astrology or some branch of astrology and as we should all know, astrology can involve Elune if she is a/the moon spirit.

    Demonology being astrology or some form of it kinda fits nicely with my headtheory that Ner'zhul and Gul'dan, as members related to the Shadowmoon clan, were susceptible to Kil'jaeden and his ilk.
    Demons in the Warcraft universe were created from the chaotic energies of the Light and Shadow/Void clashing into one-another near the very beginning of existence in a place that would come to be known eventually as the Twisting Nether. Because of the circumstances of their creation and the nature of their home plane, they are themselves often chaotic and prone to tempestuous extremes.

    As for Gul'dan and Nerzhul, WoD confirms that the Shadowmoon shaman both worked with and were likely tainted by dealings with Shadow magic and/or the forces of Decay (a magical essence which can be used to bind elementals to a Shaman's will via Dark Shamanism). Decay seems very related to the Shadow and/or Void, detailed in quests such as Silence the Call and Through the Nether, which also connects the Void in part to the Twisting Nether itself. This might be part of the reason the Shadowmoon shaman were susceptible to Kil'jaeden's entreaties - but the rest is masterful use of the circumstances on Kil'jaeden's part.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Demons in the Warcraft universe were created from the chaotic energies of the Light and Shadow/Void clashing into one-another near the very beginning of existence in a place that would come to be known eventually as the Twisting Nether. Because of the circumstances of their creation and the nature of their home plane, they are themselves often chaotic and prone to tempestuous extremes.
    Ehhh, the Chronicle establishes that demons were formed as a result of the Light and Void energies bleeding together - energies that the darkened naaru would - or do - have. I still believe it's entirely possible for demons or demon-like entities (voidwalkers?) to be formed as a result of a dark naaru's energies bleeding together, even outside the borders of the Twisting Nether.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As for Gul'dan and Nerzhul, WoD confirms that the Shadowmoon shaman both worked with and were likely tainted by dealings with Shadow magic and/or the forces of Decay (a magical essence which can be used to bind elementals to a Shaman's will via Dark Shamanism). Decay seems very related to the Shadow and/or Void, detailed in quests such as Silence the Call and Through the Nether, which also connects the Void in part to the Twisting Nether itself. This might be part of the reason the Shadowmoon shaman were susceptible to Kil'jaeden's entreaties - but the rest is masterful use of the circumstances on Kil'jaeden's part.
    Ehhh. It's entirely possible that shadow power can be viewed as an astral or astral-related power though. There are void stars that form in the astral Twisting Nether and I recall canon establishing that a naaru can have an astral presence. And decay actually seems to be related to fel. Fel energy is entropic per canon and would push things toward a state of fel decay (or entropic decay). After all, Ner'zhul (at least when regarding to the MU) started using dark/fel shamanism to manipulate elements on Draenor only after Draenor was deadened by warlocks and their fel energies - energies that corrupted elements Ner'zhul would have used during the events of BtDP.

    But yeah...demonology seems to be astrology or some branch of it and it seems that Ner'zhul and Gul'dan were susceptible to Kil'jaeden and his ilk because they were specifically shaman of the Shadowmoon clan, shaman who can take substances that open their minds and make them have an out-of-body experience where they can commune with astral entities such as demons.

  3. #23
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Ehhh. It's entirely possible that shadow power can be viewed as an astral or astral-related power though. There are void stars that form in the astral Twisting Nether and I recall canon establishing that a naaru can have an astral presence. And decay actually seems to be related to fel. Fel energy is entropic per canon and would push things toward a state of fel decay (or entropic decay). After all, Ner'zhul (at least when regarding to the MU) started using dark/fel shamanism to manipulate elements on Draenor only after Draenor was deadened by warlocks and their fel energies - energies that corrupted elements Ner'zhul would have used during the events of BtDP.

    Shamans seem susceptible to demons because they can project their astral form to the astral plane via astral projection and commune with demons.
    Decay is the opposing counterpart to Spirit, much in the same manner that Fel is opposed to Arcane on the diagram featured prominently in "Chronicles Vol 1." It sits in the realm of Death, close to the areas representing Undeath and Necromancy respectively (and quite far from the Fel).

    "Astral" isn't really a quality represented in the Warcraft universe in any unified sense - anything incorporeal, insubstantial, or not wholly physical can be said to "astral."

    Fel is the energy of chaos, manifested when life is consumed to produce a forceful wavelength of essence in the form of magic. Production of Fel is one of the ways an object can approach the state of decay or of death, but you can arrive at that state via a variety of methods including offensive uses of the Arcane, the Light, or Elemental powers. Not all entropy gives rise to Fel as there is an element of intent to bring it about or perpetuate its spread.

    Ner'zhul, to my knowledge, never made use of the Fel himself even after his corruption - he relied on normal Spirit-based Shamanism and then (potentially) Dark Shamanism after the elements abandoned the shaman of Draenor following Gul'dan's ritual of severance at the Hand of Gul'dan. Even following his corruption by the Legion and transformation into the Lich King he still didn't use the Fel - preferring instead to focus on Shadow, Frost, and Necromantic magic (all abilities following closely to his Dark Shamanic background). Fel doesn't manipulate the Elements, but Shadow apparently does - Fel can only taint Elementals much in the same way it taints everything it comes into contact with, acting as a kind of mystical form of radiation poisoning.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Decay is the opposing counterpart to Spirit, much in the same manner that Fel is opposed to Arcane on the diagram featured prominently in "Chronicles Vol 1." It sits in the realm of Death, close to the areas representing Undeath and Necromancy respectively (and quite far from the Fel).
    Most likely a result of Blizzard's employees being inconsistent and unreliable. Fel energy, which was described as essentially death energy by Metzen, is still destructive and still destroys, breaking them down into the parts that they're constructed of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    "Astral" isn't really a quality represented in the Warcraft universe in any unified sense - anything incorporeal, insubstantial, or not wholly physical can be said to "astral."
    When applied to the Nether, astral probably means non-physical because it's separate from the physical universe - a universe with stars. My point still stands though, one can consider shadow power to be an astral or astral-related power.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ner'zhul, to my knowledge, never made use of the Fel himself even after his corruption
    Of course he did. Draenor's elements were corrupted by fel magic and those fel-tainted elements are what Ner'zhul would have manipulated through "dark shamanism".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    he relied on normal Spirit-based Shamanism
    Warlockism can quite literally be viewed as a fel or demonic form of shamanism. Warlocks convert life into fel and life is an element per canon. Warlocks are also channelers of elements such as fire and brimstone - essentially serving as fel totems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    then (potentially) Dark Shamanism after the elements abandoned the shaman of Draenor following Gul'dan's ritual of severance at the Hand of Gul'dan.
    It's most likely that he practiced fel shamanism or that dark shamanism arose from warlocks since those elements he manipulated against their will were corrupted by fel magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Even following his corruption by the Legion and transformation into the Lich King he still didn't use the Fel
    The Lich King is stated by canon to have been born through demonic punishment and he was a result of Kil'jaeden's chaotic energies (fel energies) remaking Ner'zhul's spirit. If anything, the Lich King was technically demonic and used at least some fel magic.

    http://wow.gamepedia.com/Tome_of_Blighted_Implements

    Ner'zhul was not Sargeras, however, so he could not simply command the staff to open portals. He had to wait until the constellations of Draenor were properly aligned, and he could only use the scepter in conjunction with other artifacts. The warlock grew impatient, frustrated with his limitations. Intoxicated by the Skull of Gul'dan's influence, he had visions of his erstwhile apprentice, who urged him to unleash his godlike powers.
    ^If the energies of the Skull of Gul'dan were fel energies, Ner'zhul was intoxicated by the fel influence of the Skull of Gul'dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel doesn't manipulate the Elements,
    Of course it does. It's the force of disorder and the forces of order and disorder govern the cosmic systems of the physical universe. As such, arcane magic - along with fel magic - would dictate/govern everything in those cosmic systems by extension. If fel magic doesn't manipulate the elements and fel fire is literally fel-tainted fire, warlocks would be - or are - using decay to subjugate and weaponize fel fire.

    If fel fire isn't literally fire and is just chaotic fel energies, fel energies brought the living worlds toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion when Sargeras demolished the titans with fel fire and obliterated their physical forms with a fel storm.

  5. #25
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Most likely a result of Blizzard being inconsistent. Fel energy is still destructive and causes worlds to break down.
    Fel can destroy nearly anything, yes. But it is not produced by destruction as a "natural" byproduct, either. An element of intelligent intent, the willingness to sacrifice actual life or spirit for the purpose of destruction, must be present to bring about Fel energies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    When applied to the Nether, astral probably means a non-physical because ...but eh, my point still stands, shadow energies exist in the Nether.
    Agreed, but that has nothing to do with being in an "astral" state. Mages, for example, can achieve an astral states or effects simply by using the Arcane.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Of course he did.
    Source or citation from a canon resource?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Warlockism can quite literally be viewed as a fel or demonic form of shamanism. They convert life into fel and life is an element per canon. They're also channelers of elements such as fire and brimstone - essentially serving as fel totems.
    I would argue there is a slight overlap but Warlock and Shamanic magic are very separate pursuits - mechanically, as presented in the game/narrative universe, and in terms of their overarching themes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    It's most likely that he practiced fel shamanism or that dark shamanism arose from warlocks since those elements he manipulated against their will were corrupted.
    Dark Shamanism arose from Shaman who supplanted their reliance on Spirit energy with Shadow energy - instead of communing and entering into a symbiosis with Elemental forces via Spirit they instead subjugated them with Shadow. Fel came into being in the Twisting Nether as part of its very creation - as Light crashed against Shadow and both consumed one-another they generated Fel as a matter of course. This energy both saturated nascent demonic life in the Nether and, eventually, came to be used by them and was spread further. Summoned demons, or those that managed to eke their way into the physical universe, brought the Fel and elements of its usage with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    The Lich King is stated by canon to have been born through demonic punishment and he was a result of Kil'jaeden's chaotic energies (fel energies) remaking Ner'zhul's spirit. If anything, the Lich King did use at least some fel.
    It's never been demonstrated in either the game, the canon written works, or elsewhere in the Warcraft universe. Fel might have been employed in the Lich King's creation, but the Lich King didn't use it himself in any observable form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Of course it does. It's the force of disorder and the forces of order and disorder govern the cosmic systems of the physical universe. As such, they manipulate everything in those cosmic systems by extension. If fel doesn't manipulate the elements and fel fire is quite literally fel-tainted fire, warlocks would be - or are - using decay to subjugate and weaponize fire
    Decay has already been established as the force that manipulates/subjugates Elementals, and we know from "Chronicles Vol. 1" that Decay is aligned with Shadow/Void, not Fel/Disorder. Elementals can be tainted with the Fel (just like everything else can be), but that's the extent of it. Fel fire isn't elemental fire - it behaves very differently in that it can't be doused by natural means, it is far more destructive than normal fire, and it exudes almost radioactive qualities that twist and corrupt anything it is near. Warlocks don't need to commune with or subjugate anything to produce Fel energies, they need only sacrifice living material or beings to bring it into existence.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    it is not produced by destruction as a "natural" byproduct, either.
    Fel energy, as an energy, isn't something you can literally create. It's demonic and as demons are immortals from a realm that transcends all realities, fel energy is probably an energy that is summoned from the Nether. And per the Chronicle, the fel energies of demons became so great that they tore the veil between the Nether and the physical universe. If anything, warlocks get their fel energies from that destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    An element of intelligent intent, the willingness to sacrifice actual life or spirit for the purpose of destruction, must be present to bring about Fel energies.
    Fel energy isn't something that can be "created" or "fueled" exactly. It's a damn energy and energy is something that "moves". It's not a sentient energy, black hole, or void that is lacking something and has a stomach that needs to be fed with energy or matter in order to operate or feel satiated. Fel is the force of chaos, which is order unrecognized by a lesser mind according to the arcane user Iyyokuk the Lucid. Order, which the titans tried to create out of chaos (at least according to WCIII), is most commonly perceived as arcane magic in reality. This, however, does not mean order is always perceived as arcane magic in reality. It just doesn't. This type of energy is innately volatile, and wielding it requires intense precision and concentration.

    If anything, fel energies are demonic, arcane energies (as they are in the RPG) - energies that relate to a demon (or demons) and can be used for destruction. Are we kinda agreeing here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Source or citation from a canon resource?
    There is no source or citation that he did, just as there's no sources or citations from a canon resource establishing that he didn't. I'm just inferring that he did based on the fact that Draenor's elements were corrupted by fel energies. And if the dark shamanism of orcs existed before warlocks, shamans would not have turned to warlockism after the elements abandoned them. They would have - or should have - just subjugated the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I would argue there is a slight overlap but Warlock and Shamanic magic are very separate pursuits - mechanically, as presented in the game/narrative universe, and in terms of their overarching themes.
    I would argue that there isn't, especially if there are dark shamans and fel shamans. If warlocks aren't shamans, what differentiates dark shamans or fel shamans from warlocks? The aim of warlocks is dominance, which would be - or is - the aim of dark shamans. The warlocks apparently convert life, an element per a novel, into fel and essentially serve as fel conduits/totems for demons and the element fire. They seem to be fel shaman or at least some order of fel shaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Dark Shamanism arose from Shaman who supplanted their reliance on Spirit energy with Shadow energy
    Well, warlockism - at least when regarding to the orcs - also arose from shaman who supplanted their reliance on......crap....nvm. Warlocks rely on life force (or Spirit) and fel energy (which is a form of life force if it's an energy that warlocks convert life into).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    instead of communing and entering into a symbiosis with Elemental forces via Spirit they instead subjugated them with Shadow.
    Warlocks subjugate elemental forces with fel magic, or at least they can. If warlocks don't subjugate elemental forces with fel magic, what do they do? As of now, warlocks are about using fel magic, a magic that all titans (essentially worlds) were uniquely susceptible (and therefore connected) to. It's this connection fel magic has with worlds that would allow their users such as warlocks to manipulate a world about them. Now, warlocks may not care for the elements or believe that the elements have spirits, but they are affecting or influencing the very air about them when they're using fel energies. I'm pretty sure warlocks are manipulating the elements about them to an extent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Decay has already been established as the force that manipulates/subjugates Elementals
    I wouldn't state Decay is a force. Decay (n.) is a process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    we know from "Chronicles Vol. 1" that Decay is aligned with Shadow/Void, not Fel/Disorder.
    Ummm..I hope you're not going to imply or state that the real life definition of a term has no meaning to World of Warcraft lore. Disorder can be defined as a lack of order and it is manifested as fel magic. As such, one can considered fel magic to be a manifestation, or representation, of a - or the - void, which can be defined as a lack. Quite literally, fel magic is just shadow magic with an alternate name and color scheme.

    Even if fel magic isn't shadow magic, shadow magic (which can eat away at a soul per canon) would need to be fueled by drawing life as if it's a vampire fueled by sucking blood due to the fact that it's the manifestation of a dark and vampiric force driven to devour all energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Elementals can be tainted with the Fel (just like everything else can be), but that's the extent of it.
    Don't try to make warlocks seem pigeonholed to tainting elements with the fel magic. Of course fel magic can - or does - manipulate the elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel fire isn't elemental fire
    Irrelevant. It's either fel fire is fire or it isn't. You're basically arguing that fel magic can't be used to manipulate the elements, but if you're right and fel magic can't be used to manipulate the elements, warlocks can't use fel magic to manipulate fel-tainted fire. They would be - or are - using decay UNLESS fel fire isn't literally fire. And if fel fire isn't literally fire but just green-appearing light and the chaotic fel energies, fel energies brought living worlds (the titans) to a state of entropic decay or destruction and eventual oblivion AS IF it's death in the form of necromantic magic.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Fel energy, as an energy, isn't something you can literally create. It's demonic and as demons are immortals from a realm that transcends all realities, fel energy is probably an energy that is summoned from the Nether. And per the Chronicle, the fel energies of demons became so great that they tore the veil between the Nether and the physical universe. If anything, warlocks get their fel energies from that destruction.

    Fel energy isn't something that can be "created" or "fueled" exactly. It's a damn energy and energy is something that "moves". It's not a sentient energy, black hole, or void that is lacking something and has a stomach that needs to be fed with energy or matter in order to operate or feel satiated. Fel is the force of chaos, which is order unrecognized by a lesser mind according to the arcane user Iyyokuk the Lucid. Order, which the titans tried to create out of chaos (at least according to WCIII), is most commonly perceived as arcane magic in reality. This, however, does not mean order is always perceived as arcane magic in reality. It just doesn't. This type of energy is innately volatile, and wielding it requires intense precision and concentration.

    If anything, fel energies are demonic, arcane energies (as they are in the RPG). Are we kinda agreeing here?
    You seem to be conflating how the real life universe functions with the metaphysics of a fictional game-based universe. Fel energy is "magic," and so isn't subject to real world physics or the laws of thermodynamics. Even if so, it still is created from an action in a sense - the willful destruction of life itself with the intent to create further destruction and/or chaos. Fel energy saturates the Twisting Nether due to its unique creation, but it isn't bound to it nor is the Nether the sole location where Fel exists or stems from. Any practitioner of the Warcraft universe's systems of magic could create and/or make use of the Fel.

    Also, demonic beings contain Fel, but they are not composed of it nor do they "generate" it as a byproduct of being demons. Demonic beings are essentially no different from any other lifeform excepting the circumstances of their origins and their souls being bound to their home dimension, granting them effective immortality in the physical universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    There is no source or citation that he did, just as there's no sources or citations from a canon resource establishing that he didn't. I'm just inferring that he did based on the fact that Draenor's elements were corrupted by fel energies. And if the dark shamanism of orcs existed before warlocks, shamans would not have turned to warlockism after the elements abandoned them. They would have - or should have - just subjugated the elements.
    One cannot prove a negative - if evidence doesn't exist for a claim than the closest approximation is that the claim is invalid. As for the Dark Shamanism argument, the Shaman of Draenor embraced Warlock magic after Gul'dan's severing because they believed the elements to be fickle and deserving of their attention. The abilities of the Warlocks seemed more readily controlled and easier to harness - they need neither browbeat nor pander the elements into aiding them. Dark Shamanism would've also not fit into Gul'dan's agenda to normalize the Fel within the Horde and pave the way for his plans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    I would argue that there isn't, especially if there are dark shamans and fel shamans. If warlocks aren't shamans, what differentiates dark shamans or fel shamans from warlocks? The aim of warlocks is dominance, which would be - or is - the aim of dark shamans. The warlocks apparently convert life, an element per a novel, into fel and essentially serve as fel conduits/totems for demons and the element fire. They seem to be fel shaman or at least some order of fel shaman.
    Warlocks are Warlocks, and Shaman are Shaman - whether they use Spirit or Shadow, the magic of a Shaman differs greatly from that of a Warlock. Shaman who embrace the Fel become Warlocks as demonstrated in Warcraft 3, "Rise of the Horde," and pretty much any other occasion where a Shaman employs the Fel over using Shamanism. You could call a Warlock a Fel Shaman but the distinction would be arbitrary and meaningless. Shamanism is a practice, a doctrine and system of beliefs and practices. A Warlock is one who practices Warlock magics (Fel, Fire, and Shadow), they have their own body of doctrines and practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Well, warlockism - at least when regarding to the orcs - also arose from shaman who supplanted their reliance on......crap....nvm. Warlocks rely on life force (or Spirit) and fel energy (which is a form of life force if it's an energy that warlocks convert life into).
    Warlocks don't rely on life or Spirit at all - except in the sense that they willfully destroy it to fuel their own magics. They certainly don't wield either Life or Spirit magic in their body of practices. Not all Warlocks were Shaman at some previous point, either; many of them were Mages who embraced what seemed like a faster and powerful source of magic - and still others (mostly demons) were likely never anything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Warlocks subjugate elemental forces with fel magic, or at least they can. If warlocks don't subjugate elemental forces with fel magic, what do they do? As of now, warlocks are about using fel magic, a magic that all titans (essentially worlds) were uniquely susceptible (and therefore connected) to. It's this connection fel magic has with worlds that would allow their users such as warlocks to manipulate a world about them. Now, warlocks may not care for the elements or believe that the elements have spirits, but they are affecting or influencing the very air about them when they're using fel energies. I'm pretty sure warlocks are manipulating the elements about them to an extent.
    Warlocks can use Shadow magic, and likely use that in the rare cases where they deal with Elementals. Titans didn't have any connection to the Fel at all, which was the source of their unique susceptibility. Only the two members of the Pantheon that dealt direct with demons and the Nether, namely Sargeras and Aggramar, would've had exposure to and experience with the Fel. The only Titan to actively use Fel was Sargeras, and that after he was corrupted by it on the occasion of the destruction of Mardum (a prison-world saturated with it due to housing an untold number of demonic beings).

    Warlocks also don't manipulate the world around them outside of corrupting and eventually destroying it. The radioactive nature of Fel corruption ensures that any world that supports a sizable collection of practicing Warlocks becomes a lifeless husk just as Draenor become at the height of the Old Horde. This isn't active manipulation, it's just a pronounced side-effect of using a corrupting and chaotic form of magical energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    I wouldn't state Decay is a force. Decay (n.) is a process.
    In the Warcraft universe it is both a process (lowercase "decay") as well as a metaphysical force in the form of uppercase "Decay."

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Ummm..I hope you're not going to imply or state that the real life definition of a term has no meaning to World of Warcraft lore. Disorder can be defined as a lack of order and it is manifested as fel magic. As such, one can considered fel magic to be a manifestation, or representation, of a - or the - void, which can be defined as a lack. Quite literally, fel magic is just shadow magic with an alternate name and color scheme.
    Real life doesn't contain magic in the way that the Warcraft universe defines it, nor does it contain metaphysical forces in the manner of Warcraft's magical energies. Fel magic is not Shadow magic, as they are derived from different sources and possess their own unique traits. To claim them to be the same outside of color would be like saying water and fire are exactly the same because both are examples of natural phenomena.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Even if fel magic isn't shadow magic, shadow magic (which can eat away at a soul per canon) would need to be fueled by drawing life as if it's a vampire fueled by sucking blood due to the fact that it's the manifestation of a dark and vampiric force driven to devour all energy.
    It isn't. Shadow magic breaks down physical reality by tearing at the bonds that unify it on a metaphysical level (bonds represented most readily by the wavelength of energy known as the Light). Fel magic is a corrupting and destructive force extracted from the act of destroying life itself. While both are destructive these are very different methods of applying force. Just like fire destroys a thing by forcing a change in chemical composition (converting things to ash or component gases) and water destroys a thing by pressure, erosion, or pulling apart its underlying structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Don't try to make warlocks seem pigeonholed to tainting elements with the fel magic. Of course fel magic can - or does - manipulate the elements.
    Warlocks don't really interact with the elements or elementals all that much. It's not a matter of pigeonholing them as Warlocks don't *need* to deal with the elements - they have their own methods of demonstrating power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Irrelevant. It's either fel fire is fire or it isn't. You're basically arguing that fel magic can't be used to manipulate the elements, but if you're right and fel magic can't be used to manipulate the elements, warlocks can't use fel magic to manipulate fel-tainted fire. They would be - or are - using decay UNLESS fel fire isn't literally fire. And if fel fire isn't literally fire but just green-appearing life and the chaotic fel energies, fel energies brought living worlds (the titans) to a state of entropic decay or destruction and eventual oblivion AS IF it's death in the form of necromantic magic during that battle near the Doom World.
    My point is that it is its own wavelength of energy, its own distinct classification of phenomena. The term "Fel fire" is a misnomer if you're thinking it is kin to actual fire (elemental or otherwise) - Fel can take many physical forms depending on how it is employed, it's a distinct form of magical material. Fel can appear as a fluid, it can appear as flame, it can become solid structures that appear as rock or stone - it's versatile and utterly different from other elemental substances. The only thing common about all of these manifestations of Fel is that they share Fel's primary attributes: chaotic, unstable, and corrupting to anything near it. Fel is neither Life nor Death energy - it is literally chaos given raw form, and it warps and corrupts anything with a semblance of order that it is exposed to.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2016-12-23 at 04:07 AM.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel energy is "magic,"
    Right

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    isn't subject to real world physics or the laws of thermodynamics.
    Then why do even Blizzard's employees act as if it is?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Even if so
    What do you mean even if so? This isn't a matter of if.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    it still is created from an action in a sense - the willful destruction of life itself with the intent to create further destruction and/or chaos. Fel energy saturates the Twisting Nether due to its unique creation, but it isn't bound to it nor is the Nether the sole location where Fel exists or stems from. Any practitioner of the Warcraft universe's systems of magic could create and/or make use of the Fel.
    1) Life can't be destroyed if it's an energy

    2) Fel energy, as an energy, can't be created.

    3) After I asked Micky Neilson - "veteran of Blizzard Entertainment" - if life can be destroyed, he stated that it seems like just a change in energy and warlocks (according to how the game designer Dave Kosak would describe it) convert life into fel.

    4) Life can't be destroyed if it's an energy because for one, it's an energy. The second reason life can't be destroyed is because destruction, with simpler terms, is the process of destroying structures, breaking them down into the parts that they're constructed of. Life - which wouldn't have any structure if it's any energy - would be (or is) a construct if it can be destroyed and constructs are not living things. And if life itself isn't living, how can any animate being be "living"? It is stated by canon that only life can give life and if the thing that animates an animate being isn't living, the study of magic involving an animate being can definitely be considered necromancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Also, demonic beings contain Fel, but they are not composed of it nor do they "generate" it as a byproduct of being demons. Demonic beings are essentially no different from any other lifeform excepting the circumstances of their origins and their souls being bound to their home dimension, granting them effective immortality in the physical universe.
    Fel energy is demonic per canon. It comes from demons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    One cannot prove a negative - if evidence doesn't exist for a claim than the closest approximation is that the claim is invalid.
    And with that logic, the closest approximation is that your claim that Ner'zhul didn't is invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As for the Dark Shamanism argument, the Shaman of Draenor embraced Warlock magic after Gul'dan's severing because they believed the elements to be fickle and deserving of their attention. The abilities of the Warlocks seemed more readily controlled and easier to harness - they need neither browbeat nor pander the elements into aiding them. Dark Shamanism would've also not fit into Gul'dan's agenda to normalize the Fel within the Horde and pave the way for his plans.
    As for the dark shamanism argument, dark shaman existed in Outland even after Gul'dan severed the orcs' connection to the elements. They manipulated elements tainted by fel energies and probably did not exist prior to the orc warlocks because if they did, shamans would not have even cared if the elements were fickle or not. They would have just subjugated them instead of turning to demons that sought their souls.

    The point here is that Ner'zhul was essentially a fel shaman, which is essentially a warlock - a class Ner'zhul was actually described as by canon at least twice now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Warlocks are Warlocks
    Very observant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Shaman are Shaman
    Right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    the magic of a Shaman differs greatly from that of a Warlock.
    If fel magic is the magic of a warlock, the magic of a fel shaman is the same as a warlock's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Shaman who embrace the Fel become Warlocks as demonstrated in Warcraft 3, "Rise of the Horde," and pretty much any other occasion where a Shaman employs the Fel over using Shamanism.
    So shaman who embraced the fel were transformed into warlocks? Geez, I bet one can consider warlocks to be some order of shaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You could call a Warlock a Fel Shaman
    Yes, I could. You're absolutely right regarding this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    the distinction would be arbitrary and meaningless.
    There is no distinction here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Shamanism is a practice, a doctrine and system of beliefs and practices.
    Warlockism is a practice, a doctrine, and a system of beliefs and practices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    A Warlock is one who practices Warlock magics (Fel, Fire, and Shadow)
    Warlock magics were never described as fel, fire, and shadow. Please do not refer to them as such, especially since Sean Copeland denied that demons are the source of an energy canon describes as demonic. If fel magics aren't demonic and does not ultimately come from demons, they're not warlock magics because warlock magics are demonic powers of entropy and destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Warlocks don't rely on life or Spirit at all
    This isn't true what-so-ever. Warlocks (according to how canon would describe it) convert life into fel and without it, there is no fel for warlocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    except in the sense that they willfully destroy it to fuel their own magics.
    Except you're making excuses it seems. It also seems as if you're conflating what fel is for how fel magic would be fueled. Fel is the primal force of chaos. It's also a form of life, an element, IF it's something that warlocks convert life into. It can be animated and prior to being animated, it would be inanimate and so warlocks can presumably fuel the fel by drawing life from living beings.

    Fel would be - or is - a form of life that is fueled by life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They certainly don't wield either Life or Spirit magic in their body of practices.
    Yes they do, you're just ignoring canon information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not all Warlocks were Shaman at some previous point, either; many of them were Mages
    Mention of mages remind me: Canon establishes that the magic of a mage seeks to control the elements and a common perception was shared that the magi's magic was unholy and possibly even demonic. Given that fel energy is essentially demonic arcane, it stands to reason fel energy seeks to control the elements.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Warlocks can use Shadow magic
    1) There is a difference between can and do.

    2) Warlocks do use shadow magic per canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    likely use that in the rare cases where they deal with Elementals.
    Fel magic is just shadow magic with an alternate name and color scheme.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Titans didn't have any connection to the Fel at all, which was the source of their unique susceptibility.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Only the two members of the Pantheon that dealt direct with demons and the Nether, namely Sargeras and Aggramar, would've had exposure to and experience with the Fel.

    Do you understand the problem with your claim? The Chronicle establishes that ALL titans were uniquely susceptible to fel magic. Of course the titans had some connection/relationship with fel magic if they were uniquely susceptible to it. How can all titans be uniquely susceptible to fel magic if they don't even have some connection to it? Can titans be susceptible to fel magic if they don't have anything to do with it? I don't believe so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The only Titan to actively use Fel was Sargeras
    Irrelevant


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Warlocks also don't manipulate the world around them
    Yes they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    outside of corrupting and eventually destroying it.
    They can do more than just corrupt and destroy. Don't try to make them seem pigeonholed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Real life doesn't contain magic in the way that the Warcraft universe defines it, nor does it contain metaphysical forces in the manner of Warcraft's magical energies.
    Irrelevant. You act as if the real life definition of a term doesn't have any meaning to the Warcraft universe and if the real life definition of a term doesn't have any meaning to the Warcraft universe, it seems absolutely pointless describing fel magic as the manifestation of disorder. Fel magic being the manifestation of disorder doesn't seem to mean much if you and others are just going to ignore the definition(s) of the term disorder. Disorder can be defined as a lack of order and it is manifested as fel magic. As such, one can considered to be the manifestation of a void, which can be defined as lack. Do you know what the void appears as? It appears as shadow magic, which can be described as chaotic. No excuses. No exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel magic is not Shadow magic
    Yes it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    To claim them to be the same outside of color would be like saying water and fire are exactly the same because both are examples of natural phenomena.
    Actually, no. Water and fire are actually different and there is a clear distinction.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Warlocks don't really interact with the elements
    Oh, they don't? That's interesting because the last time I checked, warlocks exist in worlds and worlds are composed of the elements. I believe you're conflating elements with elemental spirits here. Warlocks may not believe in - or talk to - elemental spirits, but they and their magic affect the elements to an extent. Also:

    http://wow.gamepedia.com/Quest:The_C...Tanaan_Jungle)

    Intro
    Gul'dan yells: Cyrukh! You serve no shaman now! Sever your link to them. Ravage this land!
    During fight
    Gul'dan yells: I enjoy watching you squirm. You make a fitting sacrifice.
    Gul'dan yells: Draenor itself serves the Legion now. See how the elements bend to my will!
    Gul'dan yells: Cyrukh, what are you doing? Only flesh and blood oppose you!
    Death of Cyrukh
    Gul'dan yells: Impossible! This means nothing. One way or another, this world will burn!
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    It's not a matter of pigeonholing them as Warlocks don't *need* to deal with the elements
    Oh yes it is, is it not? You act as if fel magic is corrupting and destructive, which is why you act as if warlocks are just pigeonholed to corrupting and destroying. You also act as if fel magic can't be used to manipulate the elements and so you act as if warlocks can't manipulate the elements with their fel magic. You act as if they're pigeonholed even though they are basically a melding pot with the elements of other professions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    My point is that it is its own wavelength of energy
    My point is that energy is energy and energy can have more than one descriptor. It can be described as arcane, chaotic, demonic, destructive, holy, illusionary, necromantic, unholy, volatile, etc. My point is that if fel magic isn't shadow magic, fel magic is synonymous with shadow magic if anything because it's an energy and energy is energy. My point is that if fel magic isn't shadow magic, there are forms of magic. My point is that it seems pointless trying to establish forms of magic because even forms of magic can have more than one descriptor.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel can take many physical forms depending on how it is employed, it's a distinct form of magical material.
    Fel is a substance and it can be crystallized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel can appear as a fluid, it can appear as flame, it can become solid structures that appear as rock or stone - it's versatile and utterly different from other elemental substances.
    Fel is an elemental substance if it's a substance that warlocks convert an element into. There's no denying this unless you're fooling around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The only thing common about all of these manifestations of Fel is that they share Fel's primary attributes: chaotic, unstable, and corrupting to anything near it.
    You're not disproving my point here, or anywhere for that matter. If fel fire isn't literally fire but merely fel energies given a certain form, fel energy brought living worlds (the titans) to a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion when Sargeras' fel fire demolished them until a fel storm obliterated their physical forms as if it's death in the form of necromantic magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Fel is neither Life nor Death energy
    Here's where you're wrong. Canon describes fel energy as essentially death energy and, as it still is a destructive force, would - or does - destroy structures, destroying them over time or outright obliterating them as if it's death in the form of necromantic magic. You can grasp at straws as many times as possible or claim that the Chronicle retcons fel energy being death energy as many times as possible, you still don't seem to have any point claiming that fel energy isn't death energy other than "I can".

  9. #29
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Here's where you're wrong. Canon describes fel energy as essentially death energy and, as it still is a destructive force, would - or does - destroy structures, destroying them over time or outright obliterating them as if it's death in the form of necromantic magic. You can grasp at straws as many times as possible or claim that the Chronicle retcons fel energy being death energy as many times as possible, you still don't seem to have any point claiming that fel energy isn't death energy other than "I can".
    The cosmological chart from "Chronicles Vol 1." linked several exchanges ago proves your hypothesis incorrect. Being a "destructive force" does not automatically put an essence of magic into the portfolio of Death. If that were the case then every single destructive spell in the game would be Death magic - from a Paladin's holy flame, lightning bolts, nature magic, and frost magic. This isn't how the classification system works, this isn't how *any* classification system would work.

    As for the previous exchanges I am of the feeling you are either being willfully obtuse or we simply aren't working on the same framework. Either way, I don't think we'll be making any forward progress.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The cosmological chart from "Chronicles Vol 1." linked several exchanges ago proves your hypothesis incorrect.
    No it doesn't. As I've told you already. Canon, specifically God-King Metzen, has already described fel energy as ESSENTIALLY death energy. That is what fel energy is and there are no excuses I'll tolerate here. Fel energy has been described as essentially death energy and what the Chronicle establishes doesn't seem to mean much because:

    The fallen titan decimated the Pantheon members with fel fire until he had broken their will to fight. To seal their demise, Sargeras summoned a massive fel storm that would consume their bodies and souls alike. Yet just as the furious onslaught of energy washed over the defeated titans, Norgannon made one last attempt to stave off oblivion. Norgannon bent the raw energies of the universe to his will, weaving a protective shroud around each of the Pantheon titans’ spirits and launching them into the Great Dark. While the titans’ disembodied souls hurtled through the cosmos, Sargeras’s fel storm obliterated what remained of their physical forms."

    Excerpt From: Entertainment, Blizzard. “World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1.” Dark Horse Books, 2016-03-15. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.
    “The forces of Life and Death hold sway over every living thing in the physical universe. The energies of Life, known commonly as nature magic, promote growth and renewal in all things. Death, in the form of necromantic magic, acts as a counterbalance to Life. It is an unavoidable force that breeds despair in mortal hearts and pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion.

    Excerpt From: Entertainment, Blizzard. “World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1.” Dark Horse Books, 2016-03-15. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright.

    1) Fel fire is a misnomer - as you've stated yourself.

    2) Fel energy is still a highly destructive force, something that pushes and destroys structures, destroying them over time or outright obliterating them.

    3) Fel energies brought living worlds (the titans) to a state of entropic decay (a.k.a. fel decay) and eventual oblivion, which is what death in the form of necromantic magic would do.

    4) Necromantic magic is a destructive force, something that pushes.

    5) Excuses from you inc?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Being a "destructive force" does not automatically put an essence of magic into the portfolio of Death.
    Oh, but it does. Death, when regarding to World of Warcraft lore, has been described as destruction of the mortal body and a destructive force would destroy the structures of living beings, destroying them over time or outright obliterating them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    from a Paladin's holy flame, lightning bolts, nature magic, and frost magic. This isn't how the classification system works, this isn't how *any* classification system would work.
    1) None of these were described as death magic by canon so this is irrelevant

    2) I already to you, you can say that Blizzard's Chronicle retcons fel energy being death magic as many times as possible, you still don't seem to have any point stating fel energy isn't death energy other than "I can". You still don't seem to have any point because Blizzard established that fel energy is essentially death energy and it still essentially is even after the Chronicle. It just doesn't stop being what it essentially is. In fact, Blizzard referred to fel magic as death magic a few times even after the Chronicle. Retcon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As for the previous exchanges I am of the feeling you are either being willfully obtuse or we simply aren't working on the same framework. Either way, I don't think we'll be making any forward progress.
    I'm not being obtuse. You're just disregarding straight up facts and canon sources that I present.

  11. #31
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    No it doesn't. As I've told you already. Canon, specifically God-King Metzen, has already described fel energy as ESSENTIALLY death energy. That is what fel energy is and there are no excuses I'll tolerate here.
    Metzen said that over 10 years ago. Since then, everyone at Blizzard and Chronicle explicitly said you are wrong.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Metzen said that over 10 years ago.

    Awww, he did? Thanks for stating the obvious. Now, is Metzen wrong for stating fel energy is essentially death energy? I mean, he did basically create the WoW universe and fel energy. Outside of the RPG, the first canon definitions of fel energy that were given to us is when Metzen described fel energy as essentially death energy and essentially entropic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    everyone at Blizzard and Chronicle explicitly said you are wrong.
    Now this is clearly a lie. Not a single person at Blizzard specifically say "I'm wrong." To state EVERYONE at Blizzard said I'm wrong? Stop exaggerating and twisting canon beyond recognition then presenting it as fact.

    The Chronicle establishes that death, in the form of necromantic magic, pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. It doesn't establish that death pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion in the form of necrotic energy.

    Per the Chronicle, death energy (which fel energy is described as) is a necrotic power, which is technically different from necromantic power. The Chronicle didn't say I'm wrong or present information that conflicts with the fact that fel energy is death energy. You're just not smart enough to realize it didn't.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Aucald; 2016-12-23 at 08:03 PM. Reason: Received Infraction

  13. #33
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Whatever your obessive fetish over fel is, flat out to say everything that goes against your take on it is wrong doesn't make your argument any stronger. Saying blizzard is wrong or trying to use the absence of evidence as evidence will get the argument no where, not even mentioning you trying to say anyone who disagrees with you "isn't smart enough "
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  14. #34
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Awww, he did? Thanks for stating the obvious. Now, is Metzen wrong for stating fel energy is essentially death energy? I mean, he did basically create the WoW universe and fel energy. Outside of the RPG, the first canon definitions of fel energy that were given to us is when Metzen described fel energy as essentially death energy and essentially entropic.
    Is it obvious? You keep using his 11 year-old statement in the present tense. He was not wrong when he said it. Things change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Now this is clearly a lie. Not a single person at Blizzard specifically say "I'm wrong." To state EVERYONE at Blizzard said I'm wrong? Stop exaggerating and twisting canon beyond recognition then presenting it as fact.
    Everyone you've asked at Blizzard has said you're wrong. Explicit =/= literal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    The Chronicle establishes that death, in the form of necromantic magic, pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion. It doesn't establish that death pushes everything toward a state of entropic decay and eventual oblivion in the form of necrotic energy.

    Per the Chronicle, death energy (which fel energy is described as) is a necrotic power, which is technically different from necromantic power. The Chronicle didn't say I'm wrong or present information that conflicts with the fact that fel energy is death energy. You're just not smart enough to realize it didn't.
    You still cling to that 11 year-old statement when Blizzard has stated repeatedly that fel magic is not death magic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Selastan View Post
    So that magical Azeroth globe in Ulduar had me wondering:

    https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...c88fdc9b68062e

    Why depict one of Azeroth's moons as a crescent? What would be the purpose of that? Its a crescent from every angle, and Azeroth and the second moon aren't shown as crescents either. I think that the moon actually IS a crescent. At first I thought we would get a cool story about how part of the moon got obliterated Sonic Adventure 2 style, but then it hit me. Elune, should she actually live on the moon, wouldn't let that happen. But then what if she didn't live on the moon? What if she WAS the moon?
    The one depicted as a crescent is smaller (I measured their pixel lengths from captures when directly in front of Azeroth globe), making it the Blue Child. Elune is associated with the White Lady.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Is it obvious?
    Of course it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You keep using his 11 year-old statement in the present tense. He was not wrong when he said it. Things change.
    Things change and that's a constant. He is wrong because now I have canon information (the Chronicle) that proves his claim that fel energy is essentially death energy is essentially wrong. He's wrong because HE (key word: HE) established fel energy is essentially death energy then decided to claim it's not. And if fel energy is truly not death energy, it was never death energy. And if fel energy was never death energy, Metzen was wrong. Which means you're wrong.

    You or Metzen don't get to claim things as facts then decide, "oh I change my mind" without paying a price monkey of the aqua. Don't treat me as someone stupid. I know that there is a reason why Metzen stated that fel energy is essentially death energy and that reason is because it essentially is...unless, of course, Metzen is a liar. And if Metzen is wishy washy as you stated he is, I have no reason to trust him or any of his claims. I just don't. And if I'm not going to trust what he states or if he's wishy washy, why in all of God's good greenness should I believe anything you state to be fact? You seem just as wishy washy as the Blizzard employees you uphold so much.

    Outside of the RPG, the first, clear, and canon definitions of fel energy were given to us when Metzen described fel energy as demonic, essentially entropic, and essentially death energy. These are what fel energy is. And the moment it is retconed into something entirely different is the moment it stops being fel energy. Now, instead of admitting that fel energy is essentially death energy or, heaven forbid, death energy in a sense, you're claiming that it's not because Blizzard's employees are inconsistent and retconed fel energy being death energy - a pathetic argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Everyone you've asked at Blizzard has said you're wrong. Explicit =/= literal.
    Not everyone. You're exaggerating and thus not telling the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    You still cling to that 11 year-old statement.
    Okay and? Is it wrong to be consistent?

  16. #36
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Not everyone. You're exaggerating and thus not telling the truth.
    Cite someone at Blizzard you've asked who said fel magic is death magic.

  17. #37
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This rolling debate about Fel, Death, Warlocks, and Shaman has reached a suitable conclusion and is pretty off topic from the subject of the thread.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Cite someone at Blizzard you've asked who said fel magic is death magic.
    I don't have to do what you tell me to do aquamonkey. The point is, you exaggerated the truth when you stated that EVERYONE at Blizzard said I'm wrong when that's not the case. You're not telling the truth and my point still stands: If fel energy was never death energy, Metzen was wrong for calling fel energy essentially death energy. This means you're wrong.

    Edit: I didn't see your post before I made this post Aucald. Don't scold me =O

  19. #39
    Banned The Penguin's Avatar
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    I think Elune is akin to Anu from Diablo, or Illuvatar from Lord of the Rings. She / He / it is both the Light and the Void as a cohesive whole.

    Consider this:

    El: The (Spanish)
    Une: One (French)

    Elune- The One?

    My guess anyways.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    I don't have to do what you tell me to do aquamonkey. The point is, you exaggerated the truth when you stated that EVERYONE at Blizzard said I'm wrong when that's not the case. You're not telling the truth and my point still stands: If fel energy was never death energy, Metzen was wrong for calling fel energy essentially death energy. This means you're wrong.

    Edit: I didn't see your post before I made this post Aucald. Don't scold me =O
    Per the Chronicles, i.e. the canonical source for lore, fel energy has nothing to do with the death and decay. As for Elune, at this point, she's one of two options:

    a) The Titan within Azeroth; or
    b) The Light version of the Void Gods.

    Personally, I prefer the theory that has her as the Titan within Azeroth.

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