Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Maelstrom51]

The hell are you talking about? All PTR reports saying it's significantly stronger

Link to these reports? The boots nerf, Deeper Stratagem nerf, Master of Shadows nerf, and crit nerf together add up to significantly more than 9% shadow blade and 9% global buff. That barely covers the boots nerf honestly.

[elfporn]

Looks like sub is going to be significantly weaker on 7.1.5 than 7.1. Lame.

if you mean that the reduction in the aura to 12% + buff to nb by 9% will mean we're weaker now....

Well you're not completely wrong - a 9% buff to nb is roughly a 2% buff to overall damage(depending on relics and fight, using my latest Mcenarius kill as reference, no NB relics)

So i would be sitting at an 11% increase on ptr(for me, larger increase with a NB relic) - not bad. They obviously felt the front-loaded damage was too high (SS/evisc), and so redistributed it.

It will probably change relic priority; new goal is to get 2 energetic stabbing and 1 NB(for me), maybe two NB, depending on legendary.

- - - Updated - - -

Link to these reports? The boots nerf, Deeper Stratagem nerf, Master of Shadows nerf, and crit nerf together add up to significantly more than 9% shadow blade and 9% global buff. That barely covers the boots nerf honestly.

the MoS nerf is fixed by pooling, an inconvenience.

Deeper strat nerf was done to make switching to the buffed anticipation more attractive. We will definitely be taking anticipation with our new set bonus and the SB class trinket (and esp if you have bracers, which will be worth more with that trinket)

The boots nerf is unfortunate, they went too far on it, we all agree there.

The biggest problem they have yet to address are the energy problems. The most important problem with the spec - we're using 3 different talents to address the issue, and it's still a problem.

[Rixan]

Link to these reports? The boots nerf, Deeper Stratagem nerf, Master of Shadows nerf, and crit nerf together add up to significantly more than 9% shadow blade and 9% global buff. That barely covers the boots nerf honestly.

Sorry, I don't have the boots - so I wasn't factoring that in to baseline sub performance. Deeper strat nerf is cancelled out by aura and nightblade buff, crit nerf is negated by iLvl itemization buffs, and master of shadows nerf is negligible

Just look through the last couple pages, people on PTR confirming that baseline sub seeing significant boost

I'm less sure boots users are seeing one

[DaGhostDS]

The biggest problem they have yet to address are the energy problems. The most important problem with the spec - we're using 3 different talents to address the issue, and it's still a problem.

and They still don't do anything about it, i dont think we had any blue post about sub since 7.0.

[RobertoCarlos]

Warlocks getting another rework. Rogue left in the dust. At least nightbane isn't dispelled anymore. Thought they learnt thier lesson with conflagrate but clearly not. Blizzards developers make suck rookie mistakes sometimes it's embarrassing honestly.

[Hodag]

Warlocks getting another rework. Rogue left in the dust. At least nightbane isn't dispelled anymore. Thought they learnt thier lesson with conflagrate but clearly not. Blizzards developers make suck rookie mistakes sometimes it's embarrassing honestly.

Although there are some obvious things that need to be worked out, every single class forum reads like your comment. Rogues are pissed (but towards the top on damage), Warlocks are pissed (per usual), Priests are pissed, Shamans are pissed, you get the idea.

I think its less about being left in the dust and more about not totally fucking up from the get-go, so we don't see as many changes.

[RobertoCarlos]

Although there are some obvious things that need to be worked out, every single class forum reads like your comment. Rogues are pissed (but towards the top on damage), Warlocks are pissed (per usual), Priests are pissed, Shamans are pissed, you get the idea.

I think its less about being left in the dust and more about not totally fucking up from the get-go, so we don't see as many changes.

If by not fucking up you mean, they removed abilities to make all specs flavorless and bland and renamed other spells for class fantasy like "shadowstrike" then yeah sure.

They care so little about rogues all we get is agility templates taken away or given back. Outlaw gets fates thirst/fatebringer tweaks. Pretty much given up on trying to balance roll the bones And Assassin they occasionally fuck with exsanginate and change around rupture damage.

Once again we might be more than single target bots towards the end of the expansion when they finally dribble back our stats to us.

[Maelstrom51]

the MoS nerf is fixed by pooling, an inconvenience.

Deeper strat nerf was done to make switching to the buffed anticipation more attractive. We will definitely be taking anticipation with our new set bonus and the SB class trinket (and esp if you have bracers, which will be worth more with that trinket)

The boots nerf is unfortunate, they went too far on it, we all agree there.

The biggest problem they have yet to address are the energy problems. The most important problem with the spec - we're using 3 different talents to address the issue, and it's still a problem.

MoS nerf isn't fixed by anything - its a direct decrease in our energy regen and will result in lower Shadow Dance uptime.

Agree with Deeper Stratagem change and Anticipation buff. That's one of two good changes this patch, along with the Shadow Nova rework. Its still a nerf while we don't have T19, however.

Class trinket probably won't be used as Sub. Shadow Blades is both a long cooldown and weaker cooldown, making it worse for us than just about anyone. Assassination gets a huge boost from it, though.

[elfporn]

MoS nerf isn't fixed by anything - its a direct decrease in our energy regen and will result in lower Shadow Dance uptime.

Agree with Deeper Stratagem change and Anticipation buff. That's one of two good changes this patch, along with the Shadow Nova rework. Its still a nerf while we don't have T19, however.

Class trinket probably won't be used as Sub. Shadow Blades is both a long cooldown and weaker cooldown, making it worse for us than just about anyone. Assassination gets a huge boost from it, though.

MoS nerf is bewildering of course, it's a nerf to energy gen, but fixed by waiting an extra half second to pop SD. Definitely a hard nerf in those situations where we're dumping excess dances to generate energy for a burn.

SB is a weak cd, but is made stronger with a higher up-time and anticipation to handle overflow. I've not tested them on ptr together - it would be nice to know the avg cd of SB with the bracers+trinket combo. Can we get something approaching sin's vendetta uptime?

edit: i looked it up, 3ppm on the trinket. so meh, at best 45sec reduction on SB

[Maelstrom51]

SB is a weak cd, but is made stronger with a higher up-time and anticipation to handle overflow. I've not tested them on ptr together - it would be nice to know the avg cd of SB with the bracers+trinket combo. Can we get something approaching sin's vendetta uptime?

We're going to overflow a ton again during SB due to T19.

Starting from zero: SS (4) -> SS (8) -> Finisher (3) -> SS (7) -> SS (10)

In a five second time period we will get a minimum of one Shadow Techniques proc, so we're looking at a minimum of 2 overflow which is half the benefit. Also factor in that you can't start every Shadow Dance at zero CP and the cooldown looks even worse.

[Deleted]

MoS nerf is bewildering of course, it's a nerf to energy gen, but fixed by waiting an extra half second to pop SD. Definitely a hard nerf in those situations where we're dumping excess dances to generate energy for a burn.

SB is a weak cd, but is made stronger with a higher up-time and anticipation to handle overflow. I've not tested them on ptr together - it would be nice to know the avg cd of SB with the bracers+trinket combo. Can we get something approaching sin's vendetta uptime?

edit: i looked it up, 3ppm on the trinket. so meh, at best 45sec reduction on SB

I tested elisandre and gul'dan with bracers + sb trinket, had ~70-72% uptime on shadow blades.

[elfporn]

I tested elisandre and gul'dan with bracers + sb trinket, had ~70-72% uptime on shadow blades.

that's...pretty good..on a 4minute fight that's just under 3minutes uptime on SB....

3ppm in a 4minute fight is about 45sec x4, effective procs stop at 30sec before end of fight - so, napkin mathing, the trinket would net 1 additional full use of SB over the course of a 4minute fight; so, 3 uses of a 3minute cd within 4minutes.

It sounds good on paper. i'm still depressed though.

[Xvolte]

What are the set bonuses and trinkets that everyone is talking about from nighthold? Doing a google search, I can't find it. Can someone link me the nighthold gear?

Edit - I found the set pieces.... yea wtf why is there so much haste on the gear? Is convergence of fates the trinket that everyone has been discussing?

[Deleted]

Blizzard wants you to play anything but Sub

[Deleted]

Bracers are gonna be the new Boots in Nighthold. It's absurd how big of an impact they do with the set bonus, you're just constantly swimming in CPs, energy capped and basically spamming anything on gcd. People keep complaining about the boots nerf, but I don't think they're even gonna be a factor if you have the bracers. Your rotation is literally 1xSS->Evi->repeat. Never get energy starved. Never run out of dance charges.

[elfporn]

Bracers are gonna be the new Boots in Nighthold. It's absurd how big of an impact they do with the set bonus, you're just constantly swimming in CPs, energy capped and basically spamming anything on gcd. People keep complaining about the boots nerf, but I don't think they're even gonna be a factor if you have the bracers. Your rotation is literally 1xSS->Evi->repeat. Never get energy starved. Never run out of dance charges.

it's more the 4p bonus than anything, they definitely make SB a more powerful cd though.

[Spiritvs]

Bracers are gonna be the new Boots in Nighthold. It's absurd how big of an impact they do with the set bonus, you're just constantly swimming in CPs, energy capped and basically spamming anything on gcd. People keep complaining about the boots nerf, but I don't think they're even gonna be a factor if you have the bracers. Your rotation is literally 1xSS->Evi->repeat. Never get energy starved. Never run out of dance charges.

There is also some trinket that makes your attacks to have a chance to reduce the CD of shadow blades by 5 sec.. we can see some crazy stuff coming out of bracers + trnket...

[shaunika123]

Sorry, I don't have the boots - so I wasn't factoring that in to baseline sub performance. Deeper strat nerf is cancelled out by aura and nightblade buff, crit nerf is negated by iLvl itemization buffs, and master of shadows nerf is negligible

Just look through the last couple pages, people on PTR confirming that baseline sub seeing significant boost

I'm less sure boots users are seeing one

here's the problem

sub without boots wasnt performing well at all
so even if it's getting a slight buff it wont change the world
it was only competitive with the boots, and it wasnt buffed enough to compensate for that, especially not in the right places, we dont need a flat aura buff, we need energy issues fixed

[elfporn]

here's the problem

sub without boots wasnt performing well at all
so even if it's getting a slight buff it wont change the world
it was only competitive with the boots, and it wasnt buffed enough to compensate for that, especially not in the right places, we dont need a flat aura buff, we need energy issues fixed

i did test with bracers+4p, with no boots, just simple dummy test, and dude is right, the rotation flows much better than it does for me on live. Go try it out yourself and report how it is compared to live boots.

note: i actually didn't poop energy at all before i used dance when i was testing(wasn't using addons), i just focused on dumping/building combo points, and never ran out of dances.

I think it's more of a testament to how good the 4p is than bracers, but they mesh well enough to boost SB uptime significantly.

[Xvolte]

As a person who owns bracers + cloak + ring, I'm excited for subtlety in january. Not having boots, I've been told, is a massive decrease in DPS. Hopefully it won't matter much in a few weeks.