Rank Every Ranged DPS In Order from Most to Least Useful in Raids

[exor37]

few sheeps are thinking fire mages are topping the dps chart

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And to think, Blizzard is nerfing Fire Mages because people rank them at the top with no actual acceptable knowledge on the subject

because of ilvl upgrades fire mages are going to have like 70% crit or somthing ( without nerfs ) ... so its needed.imo

[Deleted]

set sail for fail had 2 warlocks on their Helya kill

world12 is top?

[Deleted]

Usefulness to a raid? Let's see, a lot of people say Hunters and mages, and while I tend to agree let's not overlook that it is (so far in the xpac) pretty overhyped. So far there had been nothing that either needs to soak another class can't already handle. In response to Soviet's post, keep in mind on Cenarius that 1 holy or prot paladin can clear more times during the fight than 1 Hunter can, and if a tank or healer does it you don't lose valuable dps time for the mythic Zerg strategy.

Did someone really progress this on zerg strategy? During progress atleast our healers were busy keeping us alive, three healing raid one hpala healing tank with four dragons in his face. It's true that prot paladin was awesome to have with his freedom and magic immune external (can't remember the name), but he really didn't have time to go soak on cd.

Now, neither of those are rdps, but considering they can easily devalue a Hunter on that fight then they lose some merit.
Let's not overlook Boomkins either. The innervate they bring can add to the possibility of cutting a healer from the setup and add another dps for a faster kill. Allowing a capable healer more mana and the ability to use higher cost abilities of the non stop spamming of heals is not something to be overlooked.
Warlocks don't really bring a whole lot, but the Gateway provided does help a lot more than most realize if the raid properly utilizes it, especially during progression.
Spriests bring VE, a great help to healers useful for CD times to increase survival.

Innervate and VE(with helm) are both good cd:s, but even if u have two of them both can't really replace one healer. Gateway is nice to have, but so is prydaz if you don't have anything better.

I'm not trying to hype for hunters or mages (i personally have gotten bored to play both of them), but trying to put thing's in perspective. Every class has some useful utility to bring, those immunitys just are probably the best you can bring in to progress. When content is on farm it's all about the dps so u can get the hell out of there asap.

[Eapoe]

Did someone really progress this on zerg strategy? During progress atleast our healers were busy keeping us alive, three healing raid one hpala healing tank with four dragons in his face. It's true that prot paladin was awesome to have with his freedom and magic immune external (can't remember the name), but he really didn't have time to go soak on cd.


Innervate and VE(with helm) are both good cd:s, but even if u have two of them both can't really replace one healer. Gateway is nice to have, but so is prydaz if you don't have anything better.

I'm not trying to hype for hunters or mages (i personally have gotten bored to play both of them), but trying to put thing's in perspective. Every class has some useful utility to bring, those immunitys just are probably the best you can bring in to progress. When content is on farm it's all about the dps so u can get the hell out of there asap.

Yes people used this on progress during Zerg strat. My guild definitely did because during the fight while people were learning the movement and prioritizing of adds and wisp phase, we were missing .5-1% damage at times to push him. Our hpala and prot pala clearing brambles gave us full uptime on boss and adds and allowed us to make the dps requirement. When our hunters or rogues did it we did not make the time. Prot Paladins were awesome for removing Brambles because they could do it after the Tree died and the sister died, while a hpala could do it between.
Yeah, I agree the immunities are awesome; however, so far this xpac there have only been 3 fights where they are borderline required to progress, which are Cenarius, Helya, and Odyn. Cenarius is easily replaced by other classes, Odyn is undermined by the fact it really only helps if healers need personal CD's popped during a horn/shatter moment in P2, and Helya for solo soaking a tentacle (also able to be performed by another class).
When you factor in other class/specs able to do what the rdps immunity classes can, as well as bringing more to the table, its devalued a bit.
Keep in mind I'm not disagreeing with you, not entirely anyway. From a specific rdps standpoint my list is almost exactly like yours; however, it's when you start thinking of what every other class brings that the list changes, for me anyways.

[Raiju]

I don't think you have a good argument saying other ranged are bringing more to the table on helya, given mages/hunters can not only handle the tentacle but clear adds out like nobodies business.

[Eapoe]

I don't think you have a good argument saying other ranged are bringing more to the table on helya, given mages/hunters can not only handle the tentacle but clear adds out like nobodies business.

While I agree they are great for Helya, this is an example of 1 fight out of 10. As far as my post I am discussing a broad range of things since the OP mentioned raiding and not a specific fight.

[Raiju]

Well hunters & mages have suffered due to the relative ease of most of the tier. They are FANTASTIC when lots of things (particularly spread out things) need to die. The issue has been that since EN was relatively undertuned there wasn't much consequence to having weak aoe, and even within the context of aoe EN was particularly AoE light.

Helya and to some extent also odyn showcase this, as well as making their immunities useful.

[Deleted]

i don't understand why people say fire mages are only good on aoe fights etc. when you look at the parses past 2 weeks and 90th percentile in pure single target fights fire mages are placed very high

[Raiju]

Fire mages have been a midtier ST (and everything is poor when you consider shadow priests), but the reason they get so much hate is with that relatively decent ST they have burst, aoe, unsurprisingly burst aoe, fairly decent spread aoe, good defensives in a raid context (shimmer allowing recovery/avoidance with 0 dps loss, iceblock immunity), being a ranged (naturally pisses off melee) etc. etc.

They're an all rounder which is what causes the hate. Their ST isn't crazy or anything, though.

[Alvito]

And to think, Blizzard is nerfing Fire Mages because people rank them at the top with no actual acceptable knowledge on the subject

Blizzard isn't going to nerf a class or spec based on what some uninformed idiots think. Blizzard has always struggled tuning specs that rapidly get stronger as item level goes up. Sadly they also seem to lack the foresight to ever see this problem coming. Sadly fire being the spec they use as an example when they talk about not wanting to over adjust or nerf wasting people artifact power, is going to be just that the spec over nerfed while its 2 counterparts both get improved in arcanes case greatly.

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i don't understand why people say fire mages are only good on aoe fights etc. when you look at the parses past 2 weeks and 90th percentile in pure single target fights fire mages are placed very high

Well there are only 2 single target fights out of the 10 that are out. They certainly don't rank at the top for those. The 2 mages in the top 200 do so because Guarm dies right after their second combustion, so the length of the fight hits their cd's perfectly. On Nythendra the same is true. If those fights are any fasters they don't get the massive boost from a 2nd combustion. If they are any longer then other specs catch up as their damage starts to drop off. Knowing why things work is important to trying to say what is or isn't strong. You might as well look at some old HFC all arcane mage groups and decide all arcane mages should be doing 900k dps and ignore how the fights length and ring made that cheese possible.

[Seramore]

world12 is top?

higher than you m8

[Celestraza]

1. Shadow priests (surrender to madness has a huge impact)
2. Hunters (target swapping / prio nuke and general utility like misdirect, turtle)
3. Warlocks (target swapping / Multi target dmg and general utility like portals / summoning / Soulstones)
4. Everything else

Shadow priests, hunters and warlocks stand out the most and their absence is really noticible in mythics. Their utility and damage distribution is always spot on. Mages have nice initial burst on bosses but are lackluster in every other department regarding dps distribution (ST, non-cleave fights, adds control, target swapping). Ele shamans/boomkins have their strenghts but simply fall short in terms of utility/dps output to the top 3 I mentioned.

We did most of our mythic EN progression without ele shamans and boomkins. Now in ToV it is also apparant that mages bring little to the table.

[Aggrophobic]

1. Shadow priests (surrender to madness has a huge impact)
2. Hunters (target swapping / prio nuke and general utility like misdirect, turtle)
3. Warlocks (target swapping / Multi target dmg and general utility like portals / summoning / Soulstones)
4. Everything else

Shadow priests, hunters and warlocks stand out the most and their absence is really noticible in mythics. Their utility and damage distribution is always spot on. Mages have nice initial burst on bosses but are lackluster in every other department regarding dps distribution (ST, non-cleave fights, adds control, target swapping). Ele shamans/boomkins have their strenghts but simply fall short in terms of utility/dps output to the top 3 I mentioned.

We did most of our mythic EN progression without ele shamans and boomkins. Now in ToV it is also apparant that mages bring little to the table.

Well, the hunter won't be on that list after the next patch hits.

[Deleted]

Blizzard isn't going to nerf a class or spec based on what some uninformed idiots think. Blizzard has always struggled tuning specs that rapidly get stronger as item level goes up. Sadly they also seem to lack the foresight to ever see this problem coming. Sadly fire being the spec they use as an example when they talk about not wanting to over adjust or nerf wasting people artifact power, is going to be just that the spec over nerfed while its 2 counterparts both get improved in arcanes case greatly.

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Well there are only 2 single target fights out of the 10 that are out. They certainly don't rank at the top for those. The 2 mages in the top 200 do so because Guarm dies right after their second combustion, so the length of the fight hits their cd's perfectly. On Nythendra the same is true. If those fights are any fasters they don't get the massive boost from a 2nd combustion. If they are any longer then other specs catch up as their damage starts to drop off. Knowing why things work is important to trying to say what is or isn't strong. You might as well look at some old HFC all arcane mage groups and decide all arcane mages should be doing 900k dps and ignore how the fights length and ring made that cheese possible.

i mean firemages do way better than like 70% of range caster speccs nomather the lenght of the fight, i see so many fire mages bitching and i feel like the reason behind it is because there are just so many fire mages, people see a nerf and compare themselves to shadow priests and assume its unjustified...

[Alvito]

i mean firemages do way better than like 70% of range caster speccs nomather the lenght of the fight, i see so many fire mages bitching and i feel like the reason behind it is because there are just so many fire mages, people see a nerf and compare themselves to shadow priests and assume its unjustified...

The numbers don't support that at almost any difficulty or bracket besides Helya and Illganoth

[Deleted]

The numbers don't support that at almost any difficulty or bracket besides Helya and Illganoth

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1853
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1841
2 practically single target fights in EN only specs beating fire mage are shadow priests and demo warlocks?
E/ fire mage is the most played spec for a reason.

[Alvito]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1853
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1841
2 practically single target fights in EN only specs beating fire mage are shadow priests and demo warlocks?
E/ fire mage is the most played spec for a reason.

Fire gets to cleave on ursoc, which is why fires dmg is higher in mythic then heroic. Both fights also fall right in the double combustion window for fire so the numbers are pretty misleading.

[Raiju]

Everyone cleaves on ursoc. Also when you're at the point of nearly half the available fights 'just happening' to line up with your cooldowns maybe it's time to stop using it as an excuse. Blizzards made a conscious effort to push fight durations down by what appears to be about 50% over the past few years - so where 6 minute fights were short before, they're now midlength and 4minutes (progress) are our short ones.

[Alvito]

Everyone cleaves on ursoc. Also when you're at the point of nearly half the available fights 'just happening' to line up with your cooldowns maybe it's time to stop using it as an excuse. Blizzards made a conscious effort to push fight durations down by what appears to be about 50% over the past few years - so where 6 minute fights were short before, they're now midlength and 4minutes (progress) are our short ones.

They don't if your raid is smart. You have as gew people as possible kill the add and the others go pure single target for Ursoc. I'm not using anything as excuses, I am pointing out why things ahow the way they do on fights. How and why things happen is important. It is why the top specs for fights early on aren't the same today as they were then. If people don't want to understand how xlasses and fights work then they shouldn't chime in on changing things they choose to not understand.

[Raiju]

So you're claiming people are abusing adds for 70th percentile logs? That doesn't even happen at 95th-99th percentile. Basically only top 20~