Nighthold rewards a bit low?

[SirBeef]

I don't see the problem, the ilvl is higher than the previous raids, sure the baseline ilvl is not a massive difference but that is deliberate.

I'ts the same tier of raiding though. It should not be a big leap. I would be more interested in the itemization of secondary stats.

[Jastall]

Nighthold rewards probably should be much higher, and will probably see a bump.



http://www.wowprogress.com/encounter/xavius-heroic
http://www.wowprogress.com/encounter/helya-heroic

The average ilvl of a guild that now first kills hc Xavius is 872ilvl(boss drops 865) and the average ilvl of a guild that now hc kills Helya is 883(boss drops 880) <-- data taken from latest first kill of those bosses by guilds. Outside of tier bonuses/trinkets, you are very likely to disenchant anything from Nighthold hc at this point, even if you're doing content at the "working as intended" level.

The average mythic raider is not exactly excelling at mythic bosses raid killing unless they're undertuned. The very foundation of wow raiding at a casual level for many years was: ok this boss is very difficult for us at this point, but next week after another farm of lower difficulty(normal/heroic) and current dead bosses(heroic/mythic), we're going to have a better chance.When next week you disenchanted everything, you're pretty much waiting for Blizzard to hotfix 20% nerf or for miracles.

The one that downed Helya has 2 ilvls below the lowest drops in NH (if memory serves). Gul'dan can drop stuff that's up to 12 ilvls higher, not counting WF/TF obviously. So no, they're not going to disenchant everything in NH at all. Perhaps some drops from the first bosses, but anything up from that is upgrade city even if you don't count tiers and trinkets which you should.

Plus, Nighthold is in the same tier as EN/TOV. You shouldn't see big upgrades every single boss kill, that's the job of Tomb of Sargeras and the Argus raid. At some point Blizzard has to keep the stat inflation in check.

[Deleted]

That's actually not sure with secondary stat modification in 7.1.5

its actually not because of the stats, its because of the set bonuses and trinket effects in nighthold. Every pleb will drop his 895 titanforged chest with socket and third stat for a unproced normal mode set chest.

And after the patch the correct secondary stats are more imporatant than before, at this point you have absolutely no resources left to use items with the wrong secondary stat on it. secondary stats are for the most classes still important for a fluent rotation, sure you can take an ilvl upgrade if minimum one of your strongest sec stat is around.

[Orwell7]

What I fear the most is that with the max level RNG-Casino, a situation could rise where for some specs it will be mandatory to raid Emerald Nightmare, and pray for max level procs.
Be it 940 for Tomb of Sargeras and 980 for Argus.

It could be a good thing for the game because previous raids won't be obsolete, but man, it will be a massive PITA.

[Saverem]

I feel like we're going to have another ToV situation with the Nighthold rewards. And yes, before you say "TIER TIER TIER!!!!", there are 10+ other item slots to consider.

By the time Nighthold launches, we'd be at least 4 months into Legion, which so far has had the following rewards on offer:
- Normal/Heroic ToV rewards 860-865+/875-880+
- Heroic/Mythic EN rewards 865+/880+
- Weekly Mythic 7-8/10 caches reward 870+/880+ loot

Then we have Nighthold:
- The first 4 NormalHeroic Nighthold bosses drop 870/885
- The next 5 Normal/Heroic Nighthold bosses drop 875/890

Anyone else feel that the Nighthold rewards feel a bit on the low side? Most people that have dabbled into Mythic+ and raiding (just pugging) would surely be in the 860's and close to 870 by now. The upgrades from Nighthold would be very marginal, especially given the 4 months of Titanforged opportunities.

i think that the Nighthold rewards should be bumped up a bit (+5 item levels across the board) to distinguish Nighthold as the premiere destination for upgrades. The last thing we need is another raid undermined by the lackluster rewards overall.

The problem is that Warforged/Titanforged is too common. I'm in 885 ilvl right now from pretty much only doing H EN and M+ because I've gotten pretty much every slot with a Warforged or Titanforged piece. This takes a lot from the new NH drops. Sure, NH drops could also be WF/TF, but it'll take time to get those (we had 4 months of M+ H EN to get them). They just shouldn't have been a thing, especially TF. WF/TF just furthers the divide between the lucky haves and the unlucky have-nots who have crappy legendaries and no TFs.

It's weird that my current BiS neck is an 890 TF piece from NORMAL ToV. This neck item from NORMAL ToV will probably be better than anything that'll drop from NH for quite some time.

[shaunika123]

A result of their idiotic unlimited titanforging loot model is that progression is devalued. Every tier needs to be ridiculously above the last to be meaningful.

In addition there's toxic incentives to endlessly farm old things for trinkets and items that remain best when titanforged which creates severe burnout and lack of enjoyment.

whereas in the previous system you had one choice for one good item once a week.

isnt having more options a good thing? people find so many things to complain about...

[Nitros14]

whereas in the previous system you had one choice for one good item once a week.

isnt having more options a good thing? people find so many things to complain about...

It isn't. You have a faint hope from doing something a million times. That's more like predatory mobile game design.

[Trapmastery]

Blizzard is just goddamn lazy...

[shaunika123]

It isn't. You have a faint hope from doing something a million times. That's more like predatory mobile game design.

instead of faint hope once every week, and then disappointment for another week.

i guess it's a matter of perspective, but i'd rather i can get great loot from whatever i do not just from once in the weekly raid, which might not even have my bis stat allocation
(like for rogues all chest items have haste on them from raids, but i can help that out from mythic+, i couldnt do that before, i just had to suck it up and use a shitty item)

it's not like you're required to farm it a million times, you just have the option to, it's just filler content

[Deleted]

The one that downed Helya has 2 ilvls below the lowest drops in NH (if memory serves). Gul'dan can drop stuff that's up to 12 ilvls higher, not counting WF/TF obviously. So no, they're not going to disenchant everything in NH at all. Perhaps some drops from the first bosses, but anything up from that is upgrade city even if you don't count tiers and trinkets which you should.

Plus, Nighthold is in the same tier as EN/TOV. You shouldn't see big upgrades every single boss kill, that's the job of Tomb of Sargeras and the Argus raid. At some point Blizzard has to keep the stat inflation in check.

A guild that killed Helya today isn't going to kill Gul'dan week 1 though. By the time they will get to Gul'dan hc, they will outgear his ilvl 895 because of the titanforged system(going to 925), mythic+ , 940ilvl legendaries and rng.

Stat inflation doesn't happen because a raid is too rewarding or too unrewarding. It happens when you go from archimonde mythic dropping 735ilvl to anything dropping up to 925ilvl in a single tier. Without the titanforged system alone for example you could of had the following reward structure for legion:

Hcs:800ilvl
Mythic Dungeons: 815ilvl
Heroic EN: 830ilvl
Mythic EN: 845ilvl
Heroic ToT: 845/850 ilvl
Mythic ToT: 860/865ilvl
Heroic NH: 860ilvl/870ilvl
Mythic NH: 875ilvl/885ilvl

And you just saved 40ilvls of stat inflation to use for the next tier.

[Tradu]

You have legendaries and your weapon propping that ilvl up.

I had a look at a few of our raiders which have similar ilvls and they all have a few pieces of gear that will get upgraded in heroic even outside of tier which will be big (I'm 890 and there are a few upgrades in there for me).

Yeah, tell me more about the set bonus that's a DPS loss if I actively use it and only a ~2-3% DPS increase if I simply equip it but pretend it isn't there. I'll surely drop many ilevels for that.

You're not supposed to go after the base items, you should already have gear equal to that. It's the titanforged items that offer upgrades.

Which is a fucking awful system. The base items themselves should be an upgrade, titanforging just fucks it up, and is not in any way a bonus, it's the expected norm.

[Osmeric]

Which is a fucking awful system.

What they did is tune the content (for most players) around warforged/titanforged drops. Unforged stuff? That's trash you're supposed to DE (or give to carries).

The "real" drop rate of gear in Legion is very low, it's just they toss in all this unforged stuff to conceal that fact.

[Tradu]

Tier sets are still huge. so tier+itemization will still make Nighthold gear good. not to mention a half dozen overpowered trinkets of all shapes and sizes. There are a few NH trinkets that 880 will beat 895 versions of EN/Mythic+ trinkets.

Beating EN trinkets is pretty damn easy considering there's like... one per role that's not trash.

[RestoChango]

Yeah, tell me more about the set bonus that's a DPS loss if I actively use it and only a ~2-3% DPS increase if I simply equip it but pretend it isn't there. I'll surely drop many ilevels for that.

Sorry I must have missed the blue post where they said they've completed tuning set bonuses.

My main point was that legendary and Artifact weapon pump up overall ilvls tricking people to believe they are more geared than they actually are.

Thinking that there arent pieces of gear that you'll find upgrades for in NH Heroic is basically laughable.

To give you a practical example look at the guy who is number one in the world for equipped ilvl on wowprogress at 896.94ilvl (http://www.wowprogress.com/character...ros/Ak%C3%AEva).

He has 5x 890 pieces which is on par for the same level as most of NH Heroic drops and lower than the ilvl that Gul'dan drops.

So even if you are really geared there are probably upgrades in there for you since itemisation is different in NH, there are new trinkets, tier sets etc..

If you genuinely think there arent any upgrades for you in Nighthold Heroic and I'm wrong link your Character so I can have a look at it.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Not at all. 5 item levels low at MOST.
There will be upgrades from normal for most raiders who have cleared many mythic bosses in previous raids, and the titanforging system makes this doubly so.

[Tradu]

Sorry I must have missed the blue post where they said they've completed tuning set bonuses.

My main point was that legendary and Artifact weapon pump up overall ilvls tricking people to believe they are more geared than they actually are.

Thinking that there arent pieces of gear that you'll find upgrades for in NH Heroic is basically laughable.

To give you a practical example look at the guy who is number one in the world for equipped ilvl on wowprogress at 896.94ilvl (http://www.wowprogress.com/character...ros/Ak%C3%AEva).

He has 5x 890 pieces which is on par for the same level as most of NH Heroic drops and lower than the ilvl that Gul'dan drops.

So even if you are really geared there are probably upgrades in there for you since itemisation is different in NH, there are new trinkets, tier sets etc..

If you genuinely think there arent any upgrades for you in Nighthold Heroic and I'm wrong link your Character so I can have a look at it.

The set bonus I'm talking about isn't a tuning issue, it's just mechanically awful(and has nothing that can even be tuned in the case of the 2set). You're right about legendaries/artifacts inflating ilevels to some extent, though.

[Mtburn]

Tier set bonuses are probably going to be better than some higher items, and maybe Blizz will realise that the ilvls that drop from NH are too low, like they did with ToV, when they gave all items a +5 ilvl upgrade.

[Tradu]

Tier set bonuses are probably going to be better than some higher items, and maybe Blizz will realise that the ilvls that drop from NH are too low, like they did with ToV, when they gave all items a +5 ilvl upgrade.

Which then even further amplifies the issue of massive gear inflation that Aladya pointed out above.

[Gorsameth]

That was really supposed, but then Blizz decided to put a small extra raid (ToV) between.

This shitty titanforge upgrade system makes it hard to balance a new raid and the ilvl from the new gear.

Not really, it was always intended to be similar to MoP/WoD initial gate. They just left it longer.

It feels like NH was supposed to come out earlier, closer to EN so that it wouldn't be that noticeable.

Except we know it never was supposed to since
No, no and... no

We have known since the initial announcement of EN + NH that they would be split apart and that the gap would be larger then it was during WoD with Highmaul and Blackrock Foundry.

Most guilds were still progressing in HM when BRF came out and they all dropped it like a rock when Foundry came out because there was (almost) nothing worth going back for. Which is why they said the gap would be longer this time to allow more guilds to progress in EN.
And not wanting to release NH just before the end of year holidays made it pretty obvious it would come out in early 2017.

As for the ilvl the OP is talking about. I blame titanforge. It means the average ilvl is above what the raid 'normally' drops, the height titanforge can go only makes it worse and in near infinity loot from Mythic+ and you get big ilvl inflations over the baseline leading to bigger and bigger gaps being required between tiers to make loot worth it which leads to more and more inflation which Blizzard was repeatedly warned about for the entirety of Beta.

oh well.

[Raiju]

No, they stated early in beta that the time the last 2 expansions had felt good. It wasn't until LATE in beta (and this is post development since it can easily be attributed to delays - which is why I ignored it) they stated we likely wouldn't see NH until January.

You can argue why they made that shift during the beta, but it's irrelevant either way.