Survival - The Dream

[threads]

Maybe its just me but having a pet seems a bit clunky as a melee class and one that depends on it(flanking strikes, mastery). I think it would be a much bigger qol thing to remove the pet and really make surv a more of a wild man type figure rather then this "rugged trapper" which imo is just kinda lame.

yea they have that it's called a warrior.

[Nurvus]

Maybe its just me but having a pet seems a bit clunky as a melee class and one that depends on it(flanking strikes, mastery). I think it would be a much bigger qol thing to remove the pet and really make surv a more of a wild man type figure rather then this "rugged trapper" which imo is just kinda lame.

I have the opposite opinion: I think the pet should feel even MORE important - not from its damage, but from interactions with yours.

Survival Hunter has lots of similarities with the Warhammer Online's White Lion Class - in a good way.

[Deleted]

For its Stormblood expansion, FFXIV announces Red Mage, a rapier wielding Mage who casts spells and delivers killing melee blows. Literally every player is hoping in the hype train. Meanwhile, in Wow, The state of Survival Hunters still creates vast salty oceans...

[Bepples]

For its Stormblood expansion, FFXIV announces Red Mage, a rapier wielding Mage who casts spells and delivers killing melee blows. Literally every player is hoping in the hype train. Meanwhile, in Wow, The state of Survival Hunters still creates vast salty oceans...

Did it replace a previously-establish class?

And I mean "replace" literally: did they remove a previous class and add the Red Mage? Because that's what happened to Survival.

[xZerocidex]

I agree Blizzard fucked up.
I live with it.
And I make suggestions that I consider reasonable.
Asking Blizzard to undo everything is infinitely less likely than my already very unlikely suggestions.

If you aren't aware Blizzard got a hugeass ego issue atm so what makes you think they will listen to you? Having it going back to range and changing the playstyle of it compared to MoP and WoD doesn't undo anything.

Did it replace a previously-establish class?

And I mean "replace" literally: did they remove a previous class and add the Red Mage? Because that's what happened to Survival.

Nuff said, maybe if they replaced Black Mage then you would've a similar response.

[Deleted]

Nuff said, maybe if they replaced Black Mage then you would've a similar response.

Are you implying that replacing a job in FFXIV is similar to replacing one variation (one spec) of a class in WoW ?

[xZerocidex]

Are you implying that replacing a job in FFXIV is similar to replacing one variation (one spec) of a class in WoW ?

You're the one who made the comparison.

Red Mage is a new class

Survival was a reworked spec from range to melee, at this rate why not compare Red Mage to DH since they're both new classes?

[Drekker17]

I have the opposite opinion: I think the pet should feel even MORE important - not from its damage, but from interactions with yours.

Survival Hunter has lots of similarities with the Warhammer Online's White Lion Class - in a good way.

Yeah I want more pet interaction, not less. A lot of people say they played hunter because they want a ranged class, well I played hunter because I like the pet stuff...that has slowly dissolved over the expansions. There are a ton of no pet melee specs, only one other melee pet spec.

[Nurvus]

Are you implying that replacing a job in FFXIV is similar to replacing one variation (one spec) of a class in WoW ?

With all due respect, one spec in WoW has more depth than a Job in FFXIV, not even counting Talents, PvP Talents or Artifact Traits.

I'm not debating which MMO is better, but FFXIV is light years behind in class design.

[threads]

With all due respect, one spec in WoW has more depth than a Job in FFXIV, not even counting Talents, PvP Talents or Artifact Traits.

I'm not debating which MMO is better, but FFXIV is light years behind in class design.

sounds like you have never played any dps class in ffxiv cause that's hilarious

[xZerocidex]

sounds like you have never played any dps class in ffxiv cause that's hilarious

I never have played FFXIV but I'm inclined to agree with this because with the pruning Blizz did in Legion "Depth" isn't the word I would use right now.

[Nurvus]

sounds like you have never played any dps class in ffxiv cause that's hilarious

A static rotation with double the amount of steps is still a static rotation.
There's pretty much no decision-making other than skipping a few steps in that long, static rotation on certain encounter phases.
Against bosses that go immune after X seconds, like Leviathan, sometimes you can't complete a full rotation, but all that really means is you need to know the encounter. Doesn't mean your class has depth or that it requires skill.

It has its upsides, though, such as being much easier to balance FFXIV than WoW.

I'm completely honest when I say FFXIV Crafting Minigame has a higher skill-cap than Dragoon/Monk.

[Deleted]

stuff like forst dk and enhance is faceroll in comparison..

I play BM mainly.

Hehehehehehe....

I know it's taken out of context. But it's still funny given that BM is by far the easiest spec to play this expansion. By far

[threads]

A static rotation with double the amount of steps is still a static rotation.
There's pretty much no decision-making other than skipping a few steps in that long, static rotation on certain encounter phases.
Against bosses that go immune after X seconds, like Leviathan, sometimes you can't complete a full rotation, but all that really means is you need to know the encounter. Doesn't mean your class has depth or that it requires skill.

It has its upsides, though, such as being much easier to balance FFXIV than WoW.

I'm completely honest when I say FFXIV Crafting Minigame has a higher skill-cap than Dragoon/Monk.

dragoon is probably the only one you can say has a "static" rotation atm. have you played anything at level 60? there's probably 1 or 2 specs in WoW atm that is more punishing than a ffxiv class.

[Volitar]

Why do people always crusade for Survival melee spec on these forums? It's a failure. Nobody plays it and they keep hamfisting buffs into its ass and still nobody plays it.

[Kelthos]

Why do people always crusade for Survival melee spec on these forums? It's a failure. Nobody plays it and they keep hamfisting buffs into its ass and still nobody plays it.

Because it being melee in and of itself is not the failure. The awkward execution is the failure. There are some people who are excited at the prospect of a melee hunter and simply hope that it might be revamped into something better. For now though, all we have is survival as it stands in the present.

[Nurvus]

dragoon is probably the only one you can say has a "static" rotation atm. have you played anything at level 60? there's probably 1 or 2 specs in WoW atm that is more punishing than a ffxiv class.

I really don't feel like having a debate on this, specially because I believe we're discussing completely different things, here.
The only punishing thing in FFXIV combat is the encounters screwing up its long rotations, and learned players simply use shortened versions of the rotation for those phases.

As I said, the rotations in FFXIV have many steps. Lots of things to do.
But you already know everything you must do before the fight starts.
It's really just the encounter that punishes you.

To compensate, FFXIV is a lot more finely tuned, which makes it feel less forgiving.
Just don't mistake that for requiring more skill or having more depth in the class design.

There is lots of fluff in FFXIV class design.
Cross-class skills, for example.
To main Job A you want Class B at level X and Class C at level Y for the one combination you need.
Giving you options would make the game harder to balance for SE so that's a no-no.

Maybe one day they'll get out of their comfort zone and try to develop the Jobs further, but until then, the depth in the class design of a single spec of WoW is for me higher than that of an entire Job of FFXIV.
Does not mean Blizzard is doing a good job at tuning things, but at least they try.

[threads]

I really don't feel like having a debate on this, specially because I believe we're discussing completely different things, here.
The only punishing thing in FFXIV combat is the encounters screwing up its long rotations, and learned players simply use shortened versions of the rotation for those phases.

yea like I said, you seem to not know anything about the design or skill cap of lv 60 classes or else you would know that almost none of them have "long static rotations".

[Nurvus]

yea like I said, you seem to not know anything about the design or skill cap of lv 60 classes or else you would know that almost none of them have "long static rotations".

To make my distinction clear, take Dragoon, for example: There is only 1 aspect of it that isn't premeditated - whether you proc a Wheeling Thrust or a Fang & Claw, because you have to position accordingly to maximize damage from those skills.
The rest is pretty static all the way - the DoTs align neatly, Heavy Thrust aligns well every couple combos, even Geirskogul is no-brainer, and if you are forced to skip the Impulse Drive-Disembowel-Chaos Thrust combo because the boss is going immune in a few seconds and instead jump straight for the filler combo, that's an encounter restriction, not depth from the Job design, and even that is premeditated because you already know when it's going to happen.

And that's from Dragoon, which arguably ties with Monk as the most complex Jobs in the game.
My point being, that Complexity isn't Depth, and that game lacks Depth in its combat system.

Two players of the same Job and with the same Gear, who know the encounter and their class, will have the same peformance.
There is barely any room to outperform others due to how strict and premeditated rotations are.
It's a different game for different tastes.

I gave FFXIV its chance, and may give it again in the future, but so far its crafting minigame has more depth than its combat system.
I mean from a design point of view.
If the crafting was timed and required you to perform an action as often as combat does, it'd be a much bigger challenge. :P

Back to Survival Hunter, perhaps?

- - - Updated - - -

Because it being melee in and of itself is not the failure. The awkward execution is the failure. There are some people who are excited at the prospect of a melee hunter and simply hope that it might be revamped into something better. For now though, all we have is survival as it stands in the present.

The issue with Survival is that every skill other than Flanking Strike, Mongoose Bite and Fury of the Eagle feels like Retribution Paladin's Exorcism from MoP onwards.
Very powerful while leveling. Shit scaling. Useless in later tiers.

[threads]

To make my distinction clear, take Dragoon, for example: There is only 1 aspect of it that isn't premeditated - whether you proc a Wheeling Thrust or a Fang & Claw, because you have to position accordingly to maximize damage from those skills.

i literally said drg is probably the only one that plays that way lol. you can't say something like "one spec in wow is more complex than a ff14 class" when you use such a bad example.