Is mastery a redundant stat (for many DPS specs)?

[Retributive]

https://gyazo.com/10ec36a6417f31ac79456bd549752bb1


fury

THanks, that's YOUR stat weights.

Entire thread needs a huge disclaimer about stat weights being dependant on stat synergies etc.

[supertigerlamp]

In general, I think it speaks to a lack of creativity in what to make Mastery do, and how that will influence how the spec plays. Some specs, like Havoc, are built around the concept of maneuverability and speed, so allowing Mastery to play into that is only natural. Plus it makes sense that part of the spec is flipping/dashing away from the mobs you have a way to get back quickly. Lack of up-time is crippling.

But...what does something like Frost DK really have going for it in terms of a theme? Should it be incredibly slow moving but impossible to stop, like a glacier? About all it really has going for it is the concept of big winters storms covering wide areas with ice and cold, so it has a lot of AOE, and the Mastery plays into it. It's not creative by any means, and a lot of specs run into that problem: How to be both creative without being overpowered.

It's something Blizzard has struggled with for years, which is why you see Mastery existing almost exclusively as a tuning knob, because it's easier to balance around increasing Mastery efficacy by 25% than it is to balance something like Mastery allowing a %chance to proc a free Howling Blast on the target given how many other things can be impacting that HB at the time.

[ydraw]

Don't get me wrong, current mastery for affli is incredible, but in a way that it's a massive DPS boost. In fact, it's so massive, it's better than your primary stat, which shouldn't be the case imo. But that's not the point I was going after.

The thing is, affli mastery is same as spell power that you get from intellect, which is a flat DPS buff. Ok, mastery only afflicts certain spells, not all, as intellect does, but still I think that shouldn't be the case. Actually, affliction's mastery is a prefect example of how bad a stat fight for the same spot (flat DPS increase) can be, with mastery trumping out intellect by far. Once again, I don't think that should be the case.

Exact same situation for marksman hunters, except it also increases our range as well as being a flat DPS buff. 30% more effective than agility.

[roahn the warlock]

Multistrike was cooler than mastery.

[Saberstrike]

Stamina and secondaries in general are redundant. They could roll them into primaries that make sense (str = hp / crit dmg, agi = + melee & ranged haste / crit, int = spell haste / spell crit, spirit = mastery / vers), and then have gear with just primaries.

[Thoughtful Trolli]

Giving you an attribute that directly increases the damage you deal but doesn't modify HOW you deal that damage is ironically an acceptable form of extra embellishment.

[Deleted]

ideally mastery should do something unique for your spec imo, preferably something related to a important part of your rotation like a proc or your iconic spell.

it should be stuff like "increases proc chance" or "increases damage of the proc", especially with their new secondary stat distribution idea of never have too little or to much to break stuff, that's much more engaging then "increase all damage". that way you naturally tend to get a stronger interaction with crit or haste too, and you get a intuitive feeling for your spec rather then the "math told me vers > mast" a lot of specs have now.

but should it be removed even tho it's boring? no i don't think so. i think the game needs at least 4 but preferably 5 secondary stats to make loot interesting.

look at this table of iteminzation:
nr of stats / nr of item stat combos
1 1
2 1
3 3
4 6
5 10
6 15

right now with just 4 secondary stats, loot feels really fucking boring to me. it just feels like the same items drop all the time. with 5 stats there were alot more options and variations. i think if we went back to 5 secondary stats, that could suit the role of loot RNG that is currently taken up by titanforging, and it would be "aww my item didn't drop" again instead of "aww my item dropped but didn't titanforge 20 ilvls" which everybody seems to hate.

[Deleted]

i'm very curious what the upcoming set bonuses will do to some classes in terms of stats weight.

right now mastery is indeed low on the list for a lot of DPS classes, but not by much.
where some classes (like fire mage) praise X > all else, even if it means dropping 20 i-levels.
other classes have their stats weight much tighter, even so close as to specific talents favoring certain stats weights, making 1 talent specialization work differently based on it's available stats.
rather than stats based on a talent specialization.

Stamina and secondaries in general are redundant. They could roll them into primaries that make sense (str = hp / crit dmg, agi = + melee & ranged haste / crit, int = spell haste / spell crit, spirit = mastery / vers), and then have gear with just primaries.

this was the case for the longest time, and to a degree still is.
the problem with a system like this is that, for the developers, fine tuning such a system is very difficult and time consuming.
now combine this with the constant influx of new content which adds more/better gear with higher stats.
as well as expansion packs which raise the level cap by 10 (5) you'll have a never ending balancing act that requires large scale coordination.

not to say that it currently isn't a never ending balancing act.
the only difference is, instead of only having 100 people and an atomic bomb to squash a bug, they now only need 20 people and they get to choose their weapon from a much broader variate.

[Nefarious Tea]

When Mastery was introduced in Cataclysm, Blizzard intended it to be a tuning knob for classes - buffing/nerfing it when classes were weak/strong. Over the years it got replaced by other ideas, since Blizzard tries to re-invent the wheel (class design) with every expansion.

Uhh, not really. When Mastery was introduced in Cata, most classes had Masteries with strange effects (similar to WW monk currently). But a couple of them ended up so hard to balance, such as Resto shaman, that over the years blizzard has essentially turned Mastery into +% damage for almost every class. Mastery used to be a mechanically interesting stat, but NOW, it's a tuning knob more than anything.

Also the people crying about OP's stat priorities being wrong wholly missed the point of this thread and should be ashamed of themselves. It's like you all just found your class in the list and started bitching.

[Deleted]

Stamina and secondaries in general are redundant. They could roll them into primaries that make sense (str = hp / crit dmg, agi = + melee & ranged haste / crit, int = spell haste / spell crit, spirit = mastery / vers), and then have gear with just primaries.

If you are going to do that you may as well take primary stats of as well and only show the ilvl. Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

[Deleted]

Multistrike was cooler than mastery.

pretty much this.

didnt understand why blizz removed multistrike while they kept masteyry and versatility which are mostly redundant.

[Holofernes]

Don't get me wrong, current mastery for affli is incredible, but in a way that it's a massive DPS boost. In fact, it's so massive, it's better than your primary stat, which shouldn't be the case imo. But that's not the point I was going after.

The thing is, affli mastery is same as spell power that you get from intellect, which is a flat DPS buff. Ok, mastery only afflicts certain spells, not all, as intellect does, but still I think that shouldn't be the case. Actually, affliction's mastery is a prefect example of how bad a stat fight for the same spot (flat DPS increase) can be, with mastery trumping out intellect by far. Once again, I don't think that should be the case.

Haha My Warrior increases his dmg by 113% by applying his mastery debuff.

[awbaker]

i play MM hunter and while I understand your arguement and agree to an extent (mastery being > agi shouldnt happen) but the increased range on shots comes in handy pretty often as a utility, and occasionally as a DPS boost in raids with proper positioning on certain fights.

[Tharkkun]

ideally mastery should do something unique for your spec imo, preferably something related to a important part of your rotation like a proc or your iconic spell.

it should be stuff like "increases proc chance" or "increases damage of the proc", especially with their new secondary stat distribution idea of never have too little or to much to break stuff, that's much more engaging then "increase all damage". that way you naturally tend to get a stronger interaction with crit or haste too, and you get a intuitive feeling for your spec rather then the "math told me vers > mast" a lot of specs have now.

but should it be removed even tho it's boring? no i don't think so. i think the game needs at least 4 but preferably 5 secondary stats to make loot interesting.

look at this table of iteminzation:
nr of stats / nr of item stat combos
1 1
2 1
3 3
4 6
5 10
6 15

right now with just 4 secondary stats, loot feels really fucking boring to me. it just feels like the same items drop all the time. with 5 stats there were alot more options and variations. i think if we went back to 5 secondary stats, that could suit the role of loot RNG that is currently taken up by titanforging, and it would be "aww my item didn't drop" again instead of "aww my item dropped but didn't titanforge 20 ilvls" which everybody seems to hate.

People would still go for the 2 best stats whether we have 3, 4, 7 or 10 secondary stats.

[Deleted]

Imagine warriors (mainly arms and fury) without mastery ? It's what makes them special is all about. For arms it improves our window-dps , and for fury it does something equal - buffing the enrage damage which its all about.

[Deleted]

People would still go for the 2 best stats whether we have 3, 4, 7 or 10 secondary stats.

no they won't, they don't even do that today. perfect itemized items simply do not drop for all slots, and only a very very small subset of players will farm M+ until they get a very highly titanforged perfect item. and with more secondary stats there are more shades of grey between good and bad items.

but the point was that with more secondary stats you shift where the RNG is. (away from titanforging)

[awbaker]

MM's mastery is not really a problem though. The mastery is interesting. It is masteries like Affliction's that are a problem.

Not super familiar with Warlock's, but how is there a significant difference between the two's x% damage increase? MM mastery increases focus spending abilities damage, and currently all of MM moves except for sidewinders spends focus, and affected by mastery. What makes afflictions an issue?

Honest question, I am curious.

- - - Updated - - -

Also curious about what everyone who wants to eliminate mastery would replace it with? 3 secondaries does not provide pleasurable variety for me personally and honestly I wish we had more than 4.

[stolker]

Eh, I think they are fine. Interesting stats that just increase your throughput are important. Mastery is infinitely more interesting than the other stats as they put importance on certain abilities, and offer the ability to change up your playstyle with itemization and scaling.

The problem I have that with many classes the balancing is just shit. I'm a ret pally, and ours is useless because it's just undertuned. They just need to buff the benefit of the mastery by 50% and it will be equal to our other stats (which are balanced fairly well for us), and actually has the potential to shift our rotation around because judgement actually becomes worth something on its own as opposed to just the thing you have to click before doing templars verdict, because literally all other abilities are higher DPS.

[Kazuchika]

Aha...so icy and pwn are lying to me

Icy Veins guides are hilarious now. Some of them haven't even been updated since the expansion launched and they're all written by the same person and "approved" by someone who actually plays the class.

Class discords are infinitely better resources than that drivel.

[Saberstrike]

If you are going to do that you may as well take primary stats of as well and only show the ilvl. Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

Implying that's not where things are going with 7.1.5.