I assert that individuals can make it on minimum wage.

[Chrysia]

Whoever said it needed to be comfortably? You make enough to survive.. Don't like it? get a new job

How about the architect of the minimum wage?

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By living wages, I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of a decent living." - FDR.

[kamuimac]

If there's no other job available what is your other option? Starve?

there are always jobs aviable - i can bet you right now that i could find you at least 10 job offers in first hour of searching - and i bet you would discard all of them because they are "beneth your dignity" - there are always jobs aviable in fields liek garbage disposal , contruction work , call centers - etc etc - all of them which will provide you minimum for survival - but people are just to lazy and have crazy requirments even if they have 0 rela life skills.

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you realize even if you learn all the same math or engineering as someone with a degree, you'll still likely never get hired as an engineer until you also get a degree, right?

let me tell you actual real story of 1 friend i made in university dorm and we are friends till today - M. was studying liberal arts in music department , M. was having fun while studying it but at exackly the same time (since he was 13 ) M. never stoped practicing programming . while we were still in dorm he was already taking care of dorm's internet (server and cables) - as soon as he got his masters in liberal arts he started his own mini IT service company while having as his first stable customer the same dorm that we lived in . after 2 years M. was already finishing building his own house because he was flooded with work . so flooded that he had to hire 3 workers all with IT uni degree. (and 1 more thing M. worked for first couple of years 18-20 hours a day because he had clear goal to where he wanted his company to be, no his employees do all the hard work while he reaps benefits)

moral of the story is - you can get anywhere in life as long as you do something with ur life instead wasting it and only whining while life is not fair.

[Deleted]

You could be right. Anything is possible. However I have led many friends and family down similar paths (teller into call center into other roles) pretty reliably. The amount of paths you can go from a wells fargo or bank of america (i.e banks) call center is astounding. It becomes a game of titles. Get the best sounding title and move, over, and over, and over.

This is only anecdotal, thats all it can be, but I am confident, I could reliably do the same thing again. Would I be in the exact same role? Maybe not, but I sure wouldnt be stuck at or near min wage.

Look, maybe you are incredibly well suited for this job, but again, this is a stroke of luck too. Not everyone is able to do these jobs.

And yes, it is anecdotal, and if you could do it reliably again it would still be lucky that you are able to do so. Not everyone has the same skill set, its all a lottery you either have "it" or you do not. Take an incredibly gifted musician or painter who have zero affinity with numbers and try to make them do the books of a business, you might as well give a monkey a calculator because it will probably do a better job. This isn't to say that this gifted musician or painter is stupid or dumb, it is just that they are not well suited for this particular job. But if you where to go head to head with them on their turf, they would hand your ass to you and then some.

But none of this really matter when you have a look at the greater picture, there are just not enough jobs to go around. As i've pointed out earlier, you can easily fill all open positions and still there would be people looking for a job. This is including all minimum wage jobs, so it would be impossible for everyone to get a job. Let alone a job that is able to provide them with a normal living wage.

[kamuimac]

It's a bullshit notion that there are always jobs available for every single person that pay enough where you can actually save money every month.

let me contact you local garbage disposal site and i can bet you right now they will have few job opening for garbage collecting - which may be smelly and hard job but will pay you way above minimum wage . not everyone is supposed to work in cosy office. if they lack nessesary knowledge or life skills.

there is this saying in my language that may be lously translated as " you were to lazy to learn its time to drag heavy stuff" . all kids have the same start due to state provided education - what they do later with their life its all on them and their parents.

[Deleted]

let me contact you local garbage disposal site and i can bet you right now they will have few job opening for garbage collecting - which may be smelly and hard job but will pay you way above minimum wage . not everyone is supposed to work in cosy office. if they lack nessesary knowledge or life skills.

there is this saying in my language that may be lously translated as " you were to lazy to learn its time to drag heavy stuff" . all kids have the same start due to state provided education - what they do later with their life its all on them and their parents.

Platitudes are not very helpful. Fact remains, there are always more people wanting a job then there are actual jobs.
And why should someone on a minimum wage not be able to live a normal life, that is something no one can answer me.

[kamuimac]

Platitudes are not very helpful. Fact remains, there are always more people wanting a job then there are actual jobs.
And why should someone on a minimum wage not be able to live a normal life, that is something no one can answer me.

beause he isnt worth enough to live one - its hard truth but its truth - if your only competence is having two hands and not being too mentaly chalenges you dont deserve more then roof over your head and enough food to feed yourself - you dont deserve whole apartment of home you deserve to being able to rent a very small room which will protect you from rain and wind , you dont deserve to eat gourme food / 3 course meals only you shoudl eat cheap stuff (ie chicken breats + rice + some vegetables (1 meal) ).

if someone fucked up his life its his own fault and he shoudl suffer consequences.

also facts reamain that there is ton of jobs - just people belive those obs are beneth them and immigrants shoudl do them. and they do and very often they live on much higher standard then lazy native citizens.

[Deleted]

beause he isnt worth enough to live one - its hard truth but its truth - if your only competence is having two hands and not being too mentaly chalenges you dont deserve more then roof over your head and enough food to feed yourself - you dont deserve whole apartment of home you deserve to being able to rent a very small room which will protect you from rain and wind , you dont deserve to eat gourme food / 3 course meals only you shoudl eat cheap stuff (ie chicken breats + rice + some vegetables (1 meal) ).

if someone fucked up his life its his own fault and he shoudl suffer consequences.

also facts reamain that there is ton of jobs - just people belive those obs are beneth them and immigrants shoudl do them. and they do and very often they live on much higher standard then lazy native citizens.

So far you have only been stating that they "do not deserve it" but you failed to explain why they do not deserve it.

Everyone makes mistakes, so no one should have a nice life? And not all people who have a minimum wage job "fucked up their life".

Tons of jobs, perhaps, but that doesn't take away the fact that there are still more people then there are jobs, so it really doesn't matter how many jobs there are as there still aren't jobs enough.

[Tomservo]

Facts of economics don't care what you believe, OP.

[kamuimac]

So far you have only been stating that they "do not deserve it" but you failed to explain why they do not deserve it.

because that is how life is - unfair and hard - something that your parents should have tought you long time ago.

[Deleted]

because that is how life is - unfair and hard - something that your parents should have tought you long time ago.

Right, life is hard, therefore people on minimum wage should not be able to have a proper life. That is stating a platitude, again. I am sorry to inform you that life is more complicated then a bunch of one liners, your parents should have taught you that.

[Spectral]

Platitudes are not very helpful. Fact remains, there are always more people wanting a job then there are actual jobs.
And why should someone on a minimum wage not be able to live a normal life, that is something no one can answer me.

This really depends heavily on how one defines a "normal life". What's "normal"? What's sufficiently good to tolerable from a policy perspective? These are not questions that have objective answers, they're questions that reflect individual subjective interpretations of what the best approach and what an acceptable standard of living for the least skilled workers is.

Because of the subjectivity of terms like "normal" and "living wage" and "fair day's pay for a fair day's work", I do not think it behooves minimum wage advocates to use these terms, as it allows opponents to simply retort, "this is normal". Instead, arguments should center around either utilitarian ethics (e.g. "this will improve more people's lives than the alternate policy") or broader economic arguments.

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Facts of economics don't care what you believe, OP.

On a purely factual basis, OP isn't just correct, he's obviously correct - there are demonstrably plenty of individuals that not only survive on minimum wage, but pocket money and send it home to their families. Were this not the case, low-skill migrants would generally be less enthusiastic about working in the United States than what the revealed reality of the world is.

The question isn't whether people can live on minimum wage (they obviously can, people have lived on much less in all sorts of situations), but whether the minimum living standard should be higher than what is reached on minimum wage. The question after that is what the best way to achieve that policy aim is - higher minimum wage, government subsidy, or something else altogether?

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because that is how life is - unfair and hard - something that your parents should have tought you long time ago.

I think you're conflating "is" and "ought". The reasoning you're applying here can equally be used to do all sorts of plainly evil shit. Kid has lymphoma? Tough shit kid, life's a bitch, good luck!

The reality is that we're in a staggeringly wealthy society that has the ability to mitigate many hard and unfair things in life. We pretty much all agree that we should mitigate many of those hardships (unless you actually want to tell cancer kids to go fuck themselves), the question is simply whether low-skill workers are a group that's sufficiently worthy to suggest changes in policy; I think they plainly are, but recognize that others may disagree.

[Deleted]

Always the "there aren't enough jobs for everyone".

Maybe create some then? Waaay too many people make themselves dependent on others. Almost like a form of learned helplessness.

[Spectral]

Always the "there aren't enough jobs for everyone".

Maybe create some then? Waaay too many people make themselves dependent on others. Almost like a form of learned helplessness.

This is an incredibly impractical solution for people with sub-90 IQs. While the leftist narrative/myth that no one has control over anything and it's all luck is plainly ridiculousness, the conservative narrative/myth that everyone can make it if only they try hard enough is also plainly ridiculous. Some people just don't have much in the way of natural cognitive ability and as a society, we're running out of even halfway decent jobs for people to do if they're not somewhere in the ballpark of average cognitive ability.

[kamuimac]

I think you're conflating "is" and "ought". The reasoning you're applying here can equally be used to do all sorts of plainly evil shit. Kid has lymphoma? Tough shit kid, life's a bitch, good luck!

but thats life - eveyr single day thousands of kids die beause of cancer , everyday kids die in one of many wars that are ongoing at the very moment in world - you can pretend that it doesnt happen or accept that life is really crappy but that just how it is. and then do something with it.

[Spectral]

but thats life - eveyr single day thousands of kids die beause of cancer , everyday kids die in one of many wars that are ongoing at the very moment in world - you can pretend that it doesnt happen or accept that life is really crappy but that just how it is. and then do something with it.

So your stance is that we should or shouldn't help kids with cancer?

[kamuimac]

This is an incredibly impractical solution for people with sub-90 IQs. While the leftist narrative/myth that no one has control over anything and it's all luck is plainly ridiculousness, the conservative narrative/myth that everyone can make it if only they try hard enough is also plainly ridiculous. Some people just don't have much in the way of natural cognitive ability and as a society, we're running out of even halfway decent jobs for people to do if they're not somewhere in the ballpark of average cognitive ability.

and there will be less and less such jobs with each year - but its not reason that those who have decent job should fund the walfare for lazy

i dont mind the ideas like minimum social pay each month for eveyrbody but not for just siting in chair and drinking beer - each prson who woudl take it shoudl work in public services like cleaning of park , river bank , collecting garbage , etc etc and if he refuses - he can die from hunger for all i care - refusing to pay walfere for lazy who refuse to work.

but lets make certain what minimum social wage shoudl fund : a tiny room which would shelter from rain and wind, very cheap clothes and very basic food providing just most needed nutriments nothing more.

[Tijuana]

and there will be less and less such jobs with each year - but its not reason that those who have decent job should fund the walfare for lazy

i dont mind the ideas like minimum social pay each month for eveyrbody but not for just siting in chair and drinking beer - each prson who woudl take it shoudl work in public services like cleaning of park , river bank , collecting garbage , etc etc and if he refuses - he can die from hunger for all i care - refusing to pay walfere for lazy who refuse to work.

but lets make certain what minimum social wage shoudl fund : a tiny room which would shelter from rain and wind, very cheap clothes and very basic food providing just most needed nutriments nothing more.

I take it you are a Millennial? Kids my nephew's age think that a lot. They have never witnessed a properly functioning economy since they have been in the workforce. They have no idea what a normal economy looks like.

The notion is incorrect, however. As long as there are those who have excess time, and those who have excess money, jobs will ALWAYS exist. We won't always have enough of them, and sometimes (when Democrats are out of power) we will have too many. But, rest assured, those who want to work and those who want to hire will always team up and do things.

[Shadowferal]

its very true, people just need to get off their lazy asses and get them. its not hard.

You keep saying this as if that's all you know about society...

o wait...it is isn't it?

Fucking ignorant...

i typed out only the first few years of my work history to show how easy it is if you arent complacent, but reading isnt your strong suit, i understand. its okay.

And everyone's experience is supposed to be the same as yours?
Damn sure it was all luck on your case. Your intelligence is just all too obviously lacking.

Heat and hot water are included in almost all apartments here. You don't need a car here. I was using the math provided by the graph which is 100 hours a week.

Hmm...No. Most apts here don't include utilities. If you live in NJ, I sure as hell would like know where utilities are included with rent.
I can easily say that public transit in NJ is good. (NJTransit, practically lived on the bus until my mid-30s). Still, you need a personal vehicle to increase your options. (The bus doesn't go everywhere)

[Kathandira]

Except min wage is lower than 8.50.

By a few cents. It is currently $8.38

[Fugus]

Hardly. Welfare exists to fill the gaps and redistribute wealth already. If you are willing and of at least average intelligence it is possible to increase your job position to well exceed living wage in most places in the US.

Welfare should be used as a fallback for those without a job. Welfare for a full time employee is corporate welfare to subsidize the payroll of the company and turns that company into a tax drain as their workers both are too poor to pay taxes in their own right while taking in welfare costing the economy as well.

Any job is worth a living wage or it isn't a job worth hiring for and a bunch of people have an issue with spending their hard earned money on Walmart, McDonalds, or just about any other place even when they never set foot in them.

And as for it being possible to exceed a living wage in most places in the US, that is not statistically impossible on an acceptable level due to lack of jobs that offer those wages. Here are some stats from last year.

-24.5% of the US workers made less than $10,000 per year.
-32.2% of the US workers made less than $15,000 per year. This is what minimum wage makes you at full time so a third of US workers made less than this.
-53.2% of the US workers made less than $30,000 per year. This is slightly below what a $15 minimum wage would be and over half the nation can't even make that now.
-73.4% of the US workers made less than $50,000 per year. Think about that, as that is what we consider even a half decent wage and most don't work that.
92.6% of the US workers made less than $100,000 per year. IE, less than 1 in 10 in the US actually make good money.
-Only the top 1% made $250,000 or more.

And working hard doesn't create jobs and their aren't near enough at the wages they need to be.