Hekili vs Chesdar's TMW profile?

[DaintheMain]

As I started playing enhancement, I got very excited to learn about Hekili to learn to play the spec better, and it has paid dividends in my damage output.

I recently came across Chesder's TMW profiles for Shaman. I like that it handles all specs, not just enhancement, in case I ever want to change, as well as the fact that it incorporates more things, like a maelstrom bar, cooldowns, etc.

So I was hoping to find some people that have experience with one or both of these. I have noticed a huge DPS increase using Hekili - Are the recommended rotations similar for both? I'm worried that maybe they aren't and it will result in a decrease in DPS.

[Ghrog]

Well, I haven't used Hekili's, but I do use Chesdar's, and I swear by it. It is awesome.

As for dps, I have zero problems when I can sit there and focus on the TMW rotation. (in higher movement fights I tend to ignore the rotation part mostly, but on fights like Guarm, I can just tunnel in and blow it up)

[Azzurri]

I use Ches, I don't use it for rotation, but mostly ability CDS. At first I did, but I don't need to learn the rotation anymore since I know it by heart. It's just nice to have abilities off CD and tracking buffs and debuffs right in front of you.

[Nythiz]

I never really understood the value of these kind of "whack-a-mole"-style addons. You don't really learn anything by it; it practically plays the game for you, as you basically downgrade the game into a quicktime-event game; and it turns you into a very inflexible player as a whole.
To me one of the best things about playing a dps role is learning (learning by error as well) the rotation and learning to be flexible with it.

I mean, I get people like this for offspecs they don't generally play (e.g. tank going dps, or healer going dps) and can't be bothered to learn it all. But these kind of addons kind of fall into the catagory of "castsequence 1 button macro's" for me.

Not trying to hijack your thread to start a rant on these addons; just noticing that these kind of addons have become hugely popular lately, to the point it's hard to find nice weakauras without Hekili's.

[Azzurri]

I never really understood the value of these kind of "whack-a-mole"-style addons. You don't really learn anything by it; it practically plays the game for you, as you basically downgrade the game into a quicktime-event game; and it turns you into a very inflexible player as a whole.
To me one of the best things about playing a dps role is learning (learning by error as well) the rotation and learning to be flexible with it.

I mean, I get people like this for offspecs they don't generally play (e.g. tank going dps, or healer going dps) and can't be bothered to learn it all. But these kind of addons kind of fall into the catagory of "castsequence 1 button macro's" for me.

Not trying to hijack your thread to start a rant on these addons; just noticing that these kind of addons have become hugely popular lately, to the point it's hard to find nice weakauras without Hekili's.

Because it's more than just a 'rotation' that it offers. At first yea, it's nice for that when you start playing, but once you have that down it basically tracks CD, debuffs and buffs right in front of your face with out you having to look at your ability bars, or buffs in the far right hand corner.

[Ghrog]

Because it's more than just a 'rotation' that it offers. At first yea, it's nice for that when you start playing, but once you have that down it basically tracks CD, debuffs and buffs right in front of your face with out you having to look at your ability bars, or buffs in the far right hand corner.

Pretty much this. During normal fights most of us (well, me and a couple of other people I talked to about it... so, umm, yeah) don't even look at the rotation part and instead focus on things like the statically placed Maelstrom, Flametongue, and Frostbrand bars/counters as well as the convenient graphical reminder about things coming off cooldown.

Best things about these tools is their ability to be customised for your needs. (or for newer players to a spec, a tool to help get them used to the "rotation".)

[Hekili]

I believe both Chesder and I utilize the most reliable sources of information for our helpers that we put out. In my case, that's a lot of time spent poring over SimulationCraft and prominent theorycraft guides, coupled with a lot of independent testing.

The major differences between what I make and what he makes are as follows:

1. My addon can recommend the next several abilities with good reliability (though this is impacted by procs or other unpredictable factors, which are not too extreme at this point in time). I don't believe TMW accounts for multiple steps in a reliable fashion, as you have to model the actual abilities in order to make that work properly.

2. His profiles include additional indicators for other information (i.e., showing you time left on buffs, charges, etc.). I leave that up to you to get that information from wherever you want (I generally make WAs to show me whatever else I want to see). I have WAs to compliment my addon on wago.io, and several folks have generated their own WeakAura HUDs to pair with my addon on there, but it's not part of the core package.

3. TMW doesn't look forward, so TMW is somewhat more sensitive to last-second changes that may impact what is recommended. If you build an indicator in TMW for "Frostbrand has less than or equal to 4.8 seconds remaining and I have 20 Maelstrom to spend" then it's only going to show up under those circumstances.

That's fine, and often quite good enough for people, but it can result in sudden, last second changes to what is recommended.

Using the Frostbrand example, let's say there is 6 seconds left on my Frostbrand buff, and I hit Stormstrike. If my GCD is 1.25 seconds, I'll see the following: (a) for the first 1.19 seconds of my GCD, Frostbrand will not be recommended, because Frostbrand's duration will be > 4.8 seconds, and (b) at the 1.20 second mark (0.05s before my GCD expires), the criteria for Frostbrand will be met and now Frostbrand will be shown.

In-game, I may have already button-mashed whatever lower-priority ability was recommended (maybe Flametongue, maybe Lava Lash), and depending on latency that might be queued and executed before I can respond to a change in recommendation. Will that impact my DPS output? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

There are other potential impacts on recommendations that are not modeled in TMW. When will your next weapon swing hit? That may impact how much Maelstrom you have to spend. Are you using Fury of Air? If that's up, it may spend the MP you need for whatever's recommended *now* and cause the recommendation to change at the last second.

...

In any case, it's ultimately a matter of preference. Chesder's profile is well-organized, visually appealing, and very user-friendly. How often will situations like #3 arise and ultimately cost you DPS? Probably not incredibly often. But it's important to me that my addon recommend what it thinks you ought to do *when you can do something* rather than what you would do now, if you could, but you can't, because the GCD is active.

Whichever helps you perform better is the right choice. Use either as a tool to test yourself, or as a quick aide to get you back into your priority queue after you had to run out from Heimdall because your raid leader put melee on that side for some ungodly reason. Use either, neither, or both. Just perform so strongly that you make other people in your raid wish they'd played a Shaman instead of a Demon Hunter.

[bearlolzx]

tmw >>>> both of these

[avoidconfusion]

Could someone post a link to these profiles?

[Curulan]

You don't really learn anything by it; it practically plays the game for you

If someone's just blindly following what an addon tells them to do and doesn't bother learning about the spec or why the APLs suggest what they do when they do, that player is already a lost cause. Can a (good) player memorize the priorities of their abilities and perform well without any kind of assistance? Absolutely, but some of us prefer the visual feedback.

tmw >>>> both of these

TellMeWhen is a LUA-based framework for displaying information based on events detected in the game state, similar to WeakAuras. Chesder uses that framework for his addons, while Hekili's addon uses one of his own design. You're comparing apples to the abstract concept of "fruit."

[Nythiz]

Because it's more than just a 'rotation' that it offers. At first yea, it's nice for that when you start playing, but once you have that down it basically tracks CD, debuffs and buffs right in front of your face with out you having to look at your ability bars, or buffs in the far right hand corner.

Perhaps, but I'm talking about the rotation prediction. I mean you can make weakauras that just track buff timers and cooldowns; but these specifically turn the game into a quicktime event for you, where you just hit the ability that corresponds with the icon that's in the middle of your screen. Kind of takes the gaming out of the game IMO.

If someone's just blindly following what an addon tells them to do and doesn't bother learning about the spec or why the APLs suggest what they do when they do, that player is already a lost cause. Can a (good) player memorize the priorities of their abilities and perform well without any kind of assistance? Absolutely, but some of us prefer the visual feedback.

But isn't a large part of what makes a game like this fun, the challenge in taking all the information provided and making the most out of it?

The problem I have with addons like these is that they perform a critical part of what the player is suppose to do himself.

Normally the game provides you with certain feedback about your abilities and the state of the game; normal weakauras or TMW setups simply display that information in an orderly fashion; and then you as a player take that information and decide what the best course of action is.
Rotation prediction takes the gaming out of the game in a way.

I'm not condemning people that use this, if they prefer to play this way who am I to tell them they can't. I'm just concerned by the growing popularity of these type of addons.

[Ghrog]

Perhaps, but I'm talking about the rotation prediction. I mean you can make weakauras that just track buff timers and cooldowns; but these specifically turn the game into a quicktime event for you, where you just hit the ability that corresponds with the icon that's in the middle of your screen. Kind of takes the gaming out of the game IMO.



But isn't a large part of what makes a game like this fun, the challenge in taking all the information provided and making the most out of it?

The problem I have with addons like these is that they perform a critical part of what the player is suppose to do himself.

Normally the game provides you with certain feedback about your abilities and the state of the game; normal weakauras or TMW setups simply display that information in an orderly fashion; and then you as a player take that information and decide what the best course of action is.
Rotation prediction takes the gaming out of the game in a way.

I'm not condemning people that use this, if they prefer to play this way who am I to tell them they can't. I'm just concerned by the growing popularity of these type of addons.

Some people enjoy them, some don't.

A bad player isn't suddenly going to be good because he has his rotation showing on his screen (I have seen it first hand with some other folks I was trying to help). There is so much more to fights than just the rotation. There is staying on target, swapping targets, avoiding fires, stacking for spread damage mechanics, navigating hectic fields (E.G. Odyns balls), Popping defensive CD's at the right time, popping offensive cooldowns at the right time, CC'ing adds, and several other things that all are not represented by the rotation icon.

I have run Heroic Guarm with another shaman in raid that sims about the same dps that I do that I know uses the addon, but I noticed afterwards that when breath was incoming that he ran straight through the bos and spun around when he got into the right spot. He got there faster than I did, but I would strafe around the boss allowing me to continue to dps the entire time. Just that small difference (we had similar numbers of Stormstrike procs) ended up resulting in a 40K dps difference. Last week he changed it up to how I was doing it and I only beat him by 10K. No change in the rotation, just adjusting to mechanics. Which for many folks makes the game perfectly fun.

[bearlolzx]

ive been using chesders tmw and have eaisly done 99% on all fights in heroic due to it