Ohio passes 'heartbeat' abortion bill

[Total Crica]

You want to punish people with a child, a huge responsibility, which they are clearly showing they can't, or don't want to handle...but you want to force adoption on a child to punish adults...what the actual fuck?

OMG!!! LOL!!!! Can I please put this in my sig??? HAHAHA! I love it!

[Extremity]

I wonder how they'd react if their daughter/granddaughter was raped, became pregnant, and cried to daddy/grandpa that they didn't want to go through the struggle of pregnancy and labor for a child (that is not a child yet) they never wanted. All issues about choice aside (and I believe a woman has the right to choose assuming it's within a reasonable timeframe, certainly longer than 6 weeks), I highly doubt these same men would force their little girl to go through such a thing on principle.

It's very easy to tell other people how you think they should live their lives when it has literally nothing to do with you and you generally look down on them entirely as a race/sex/whatever. This is nothing but ignorance and, unfortunately, the only solution is time. My generation (born late 80s, early 90s) is getting closer to the age where we'll be the ones running things, and I'm really hoping that's going to help. Most of this ridiculous shit you see is from older politicians stuck in their ultra-conservative beliefs, making decisions that potentially ruin the lives of thousands or even millions of Americans, based on outstanding logic of "I DISAGREE!!!"

It's astounding to me that this is even a fucking issue. I don't understand how somebody's brain can work in a way that they think a woman's body can be fucking governed. This is a medical procedure and should be completely between a doctor and patient; if a doctor feels that, medically, it's too far along to terminate then that's one thing -- a politician that, quite frankly, knows jack shit should not be making medical decisions on a fucking state-wide or national scale. Imagine if an entire state outlawed childhood immunizations because the current political party in power didn't like them -- that would be fucking ridiculous. This isn't that different. Nobody is trying to slit the throat of a newborn here; a woman should have the right to decide entirely on her own if she wants to remove a tissue growth from her body before it develops further, a growth that is only as alive as the skin on your ear is "alive".

Things inside your body are yours to control. You are the government, you are the president, you have your own bill of rights, your own moral code, your own standards. The government can dictate whatever the fuck they want out in the open world, but anybody thinking they have the right to say what can and cannot go on INSIDE YOUR BODY is fucking absurd.

I don't even want to argue or debate about this; years ago I loved this kind of discussion, but lately I've realized how fucking ridiculous it is to even debate about. There is no genuine, thought-provoking, insightful retort; there's just hate, a total disconnection from the real world outside what's in your safe little local bubble, and a complete lack of empathy for (and desire to control) others and/or specifically women. Many of these people (and of course I know it's not all of them) are in the same group as those that pay women less to do the same work, that think deep down women enjoy being sexually harassed or that sexual harassment prevention itself is a ridiculous notion, and genuinely feel as if they are superior to women, even if only on a subconscious level.

Anybody that genuinely, deep down inside, believes that a raped woman is obligated to carry a pregnancy to term has a screw loose... and it's just pointless to try to convince them otherwise. These people are set in their ways and it's easier just to wait for them to die, knowing that their legacy of bigotry and hate will hopefully be dying with them. Each generation that's born has fewer and fewer of these people in it, as there are more people opening their eyes and less passing down family traditions of hate. It's unfortunate that so many will have to suffer today while waiting for tomorrow, but have hope that one day people will look back at this and how ridiculous the entire thing was the way we look back at when women couldn't vote or own property. We'll get there!

[Halyon]

OMG!!! LOL!!!! Can I please put this in my sig??? HAHAHA! I love it!

Eh, if you want, but the sentence structure was mangled a bit by just plain...wtf'ery...

[Total Crica]

Extremity for President!

[Zmaniac17]

It is my opinion that if people want to pass bills like these (and I don't think they should) they should include in them support for child care services / adoption / help for abandoned teenagers and financial support for the families who are effected by the law. Unfortunately there seems to be a disconnect between the two. And there is often efforts to reduce social safety nets by the same people who advocate for stricter abortion laws. The law doesn't solve anything it just gives certain people (usually unaffected by the law) the peace of mind they desire. While condemning others (both mother and child) to suffer on their behalf.

I shouldn't really be posting here because this is so far from my experience. I just watched a documentary about an orphanage/school in the Himalayas though. And it was sad watching the mothers beg for them to take their children away. And to hear the stories of the kids who had died after being declined enterance to the school. We are lucky we have access to modern medicine in the United States and reasonably good social safety nets.
https://vimeo.com/95735800 Tashi and the Monk

[XangXu]

Tota mentioned this before. What about this kind of law?

The father can opt for the child to be born and raise the child himself, for a price, and the woman can choose to totally 100% disassociate herself with the father. In fact, the man would have to even PAY the woman for this option during the pregnancy.

So if the man offers to "buy" and raise the child himself, he has the option?

[Knolan]

I wonder how they'd react if their daughter/granddaughter was raped, became pregnant, and cried to daddy/grandpa that they didn't want to go through the struggle of pregnancy and labor for a child (that is not a child yet) they never wanted. All issues about choice aside (and I believe a woman has the right to choose assuming it's within a reasonable timeframe, certainly longer than 6 weeks), I highly doubt these same men would force their little girl to go through such a thing on principle.

It's very easy to tell other people how you think they should live their lives when it has literally nothing to do with you and you generally look down on them entirely as a race/sex/whatever. This is nothing but ignorance and, unfortunately, the only solution is time. My generation (born late 80s, early 90s) is getting closer to the age where we'll be the ones running things, and I'm really hoping that's going to help. Most of this ridiculous shit you see is from older politicians stuck in their ultra-conservative beliefs, making decisions that potentially ruin the lives of thousands or even millions of Americans, based on outstanding logic of "I DISAGREE!!!"

It's astounding to me that this is even a fucking issue. I don't understand how somebody's brain can work in a way that they think a woman's body can be fucking governed. This is a medical procedure and should be completely between a doctor and patient; if a doctor feels that, medically, it's too far along to terminate then that's one thing -- a politician that, quite frankly, knows jack shit should not be making medical decisions on a fucking state-wide or national scale. Imagine if an entire state outlawed childhood immunizations because the current political party in power didn't like them -- that would be fucking ridiculous. This isn't that different. Nobody is trying to slit the throat of a newborn here; a woman should have the right to decide entirely on her own if she wants to remove a tissue growth from her body before it develops further, a growth that is only as alive as the skin on your ear is "alive".

Things inside your body are yours to control. You are the government, you are the president, you have your own bill of rights, your own moral code, your own standards. The government can dictate whatever the fuck they want out in the open world, but anybody thinking they have the right to say what can and cannot go on INSIDE YOUR BODY is fucking absurd.

I don't even want to argue or debate about this; years ago I loved this kind of discussion, but lately I've realized how fucking ridiculous it is to even debate about. There is no genuine, thought-provoking, insightful retort; there's just hate, a total disconnection from the real world outside what's in your safe little local bubble, and a complete lack of empathy for (and desire to control) others and/or specifically women. Many of these people (and of course I know it's not all of them) are in the same group as those that pay women less to do the same work, that think deep down women enjoy being sexually harassed or that sexual harassment prevention itself is a ridiculous notion, and genuinely feel as if they are superior to women, even if only on a subconscious level.

Anybody that genuinely, deep down inside, believes that a raped woman is obligated to carry a pregnancy to term has a screw loose... and it's just pointless to try to convince them otherwise. These people are set in their ways and it's easier just to wait for them to die, knowing that their legacy of bigotry and hate will hopefully be dying with them. Each generation that's born has fewer and fewer of these people in it, as there are more people opening their eyes and less passing down family traditions of hate. It's unfortunate that so many will have to suffer today while waiting for tomorrow, but have hope that one day people will look back at this and how ridiculous the entire thing was the way we look back at when women couldn't vote or own property. We'll get there!

People who are against abortion believe that life begins on conception and hence abortion is murder. It is simple as that, stop painting them as retarded evil people. It is this kind of behavior that is feeding the rise of the right wing in the world. Try to understand other people motives and show your reasoning, that is how we are supposed to live in a society.

I, personally, am fine with abortion up to about 12 weeks, because that is about the time we develop our nervous system and hence where I believe life begins.

And yes, there are rules about things that go on your body everywhere in the world, heck, you can't even legally kill yourself in most countries in the world (and there are reasons for that, such as depression). Imagine if a woman deliberately takes Thalidomide when pregnant just to cause her baby to be born with a birth defect, she would be "putting whatever she wants in her body", would that be fine for you? I would sure as hell want her to rot in a prison.

The world is not as black and white as you are trying to paint.

[XangXu]

Let me rephrase.

Women would have the right to have abortions all they want. All the live long day if they want to. 100% legal abortions. You would even get a punch card.

However, the man could offer to "buy" the child once it was born and the mother would have no contact with the child afterwords.

The child is born.

The woman gets a chunk of change.

The man now has a son to raise.

Life is preserved.


This also makes it kind of an offer that the woman would find hard to refuse, which would be the idea. Have a free, legal abortion, or carry the baby to term, know that he'll have a father to raise him and get paid at the same time.

If the system were in place, I think it would even discourage abortions or cast a very poor light on those who choose to abort anyways, even in the face of the child having a good father and a paycheck for the woman.

- - - Updated - - -

People who are against abortion believe that life begins on conception and hence abortion is murder. It is simple as that, stop painting them as retarded evil people. It is this kind of behavior that is feeding the rise of the right wing in the world. Try to understand other people motives and show your reasoning, that is how we are supposed to live in a society.

I, personally, am fine with abortion up to about 12 weeks, because that is about the time we develop our nervous system and hence where I believe life begins.

And yes, there are rules about things that go on your body everywhere in the world, heck, you can't even legally kill yourself in most countries in the world (and there are reasons for that, such as depression). Imagine if a woman deliberately takes Thalidomide when pregnant just to cause her baby to be born with a birth defect, she would be "putting whatever she wants in her body", would that be fine for you? I would sure as hell want her to rot in a prison.

The world is not as black and white as you are trying to paint.

I'm glad finally someone is starting to think like me.

[Halyon]

Let me rephrase.

Women would have the right to have abortions all they want. All the live long day if they want to. 100% legal abortions. You would even get a punch card.

However, the man could offer to "buy" the child once it was born and the mother would have no contact with the child afterwords.

The child is born.

The woman gets a chunk of change.

The man now has a son to raise.

Life is preserved.


This also makes it kind of an offer that the woman would find hard to refuse, which would be the idea. Have a free, legal abortion, or carry the baby to term, know that he'll have a father to raise him and get paid at the same time.

If the system were in place, I think it would even discourage abortions or cast a very poor light on those who choose to abort anyways, even in the face of the child having a good father and a paycheck for the woman.

...this is almost somewhat a practice, and is frowned upon. Barren couples are sometimes willing to pay a surrogate mother to carry a child for them. It's illegal in certain places of the world.

Either way, yes, this could be an option, as in a different choice. An option like this can never be mandatory. Then you are literally paying for a woman to be degraded to a broodmare if she's unwilling. If she doesn't want to carry the child, and she wants an abortion, she should never be stigamtized for choosing to do so. Instead, people should be educated more about it, how to better protect themselves, if possible, if they don't want to become pregnant. Currently, there is no 100% method. Not even abstinence. Rapes and/or incest pregnancies are very rare, but they do happen. Accessibility to birth control, and knowledge on how to use it should be readily available in any relevant place. Like have a bucket with free condoms at the bar/pub/disco/whatever counter would be a start. Shaming is -never- an effective method.

I personally would like to have abortions happen less for everyone, but I can also realize that the only way to do so, is to offer support to those who want it, and working on better birth control, and educate people in its use to reduce abortions further.

Sex is a fact of life, one that humans, and some other animal species, take part in for fun, recreation, bonding, stress relief, what have you... It has health benefits like helping to reduce depressions, it's a little bit of exercise if you take your time with it, etc...

Furthermore, why do you insist on, as a secondary effect, punishing the child to either be caught in an adoption system that has a habit of turning the unadopted people into low-constributors, if not just criminals? Sure, there are kids who'll be adopted, that's good, but it's not near enough to start forcing more of them in there by the boatload, when the system is flawed already?

Does it not matter when the kid is born? Is it only worth fighting for any fetus to be born, and then they're on their own? That's ridiculously short-sighted and cold.

[Annoying]

I, personally, am fine with abortion up to about 12 weeks, because that is about the time we develop our nervous system and hence where I believe life begins.

I think more of having a conscious brain as when it begins.

16-21 weeks is the first sign of unconscious impulses and reflexes such as swallowing and sucking, so I think the 12 week figure is a bit early for your definition, as a nervous system is formed but not actually doing anything yet. Anyway, at 24 weeks is when the brainstem is fully formed, and reflexes like blinking start happening. 26 weeks is when we finally see REM and active brain events beyond reflexes -- consciousness. This happens to be the end of the second trimester or so.

The majority of the states (38/50) ban abortions after 24-26 weeks or earlier, fitting what I see pretty well.

[MrTharne]

He was never pregnant, it doesn't concern him. And unless the woman tells him, he will never know.

While I agree with the other points, I can't on this one. If they are in a relationship, the father should know and make a decision about the relationship (not about the abortion) based on that.

[Halyon]

While I agree with the other points, I can't on this one. If they are in a relationship, the father should know and make a decision about the relationship (not about the abortion) based on that.

I can understand and agree to this. I mean, unless the partner agrees to not knowing, or if they said themselves that they don't wanna know.

[JoaoPinga]

Huh? You think making abortions illegal wouldn't reduce the number of abortions?

No, it wouldn't. All it does is increase the number of unsafe abortions and deaths.

Compare these maps:

http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealt.../magnitude/en/


Does anyone bother spending 5 minutes on Google nowadays before posting like they are experts on everything? The US is reducing the abortion numbers every year. What is exactly the problem you want to fix with those laws?

[Knolan]

I think more of having a conscious brain as when it begins.

16-21 weeks is the first sign of unconscious impulses and reflexes such as swallowing and sucking, so I think the 12 week figure is a bit early for your definition, as a nervous system is formed but not actually doing anything yet. Anyway, at 24 weeks is when the brainstem is fully formed, and reflexes like blinking start happening. 26 weeks is when we finally see REM and active brain events beyond reflexes -- consciousness. This happens to be the end of the second trimester or so.

The majority of the states (38/50) ban abortions after 24-26 weeks or earlier, fitting what I see pretty well.

Last time I took a look at it (which was very long ago), 12 weeks was the really safe point (which certainly includes some error margin there). Having a conscious brain is arguable, people in coma is the first thing that comes to my mind. But overall I guess the point is at which point we, as a society, consider the fetus/embryo a human being, I just get really pissed when people start trying to demonize the other side and pretend they are randomly defending a position that will turn our world into a post apocalyptic wasteland.

[Zeth Hawkins]

No, it wouldn't. All it does is increase the number of unsafe abortions and deaths.

Compare these maps:

http://worldabortionlaws.com/map/
http://www.who.int/reproductivehealt.../magnitude/en/


Does anyone bother spending 5 minutes on Google nowadays before posting like they are experts on everything? The US is reducing the abortion numbers every year. What is exactly the problem you want to fix with those laws?

>>Looks at maps
Iceland, Great Britain, and (especially) Ireland are restrictive, yet have none/negligible unsafe abortions. Even third-world Finland is restrictive with none/negligible.

Or were you trying to compare the US to African, Middle-eastern, and South-American countries?

[Annoying]

Last time I took a look at it (which was very long ago), 12 weeks was the really safe point (which certainly includes some error margin there). Having a conscious brain is arguable, people in coma is the first thing that comes to my mind. But overall I guess the point is at which point we, as a society, consider the fetus/embryo a human being, I just get really pissed when people start trying to demonize the other side and pretend they are randomly defending a position that will turn our world into a post apocalyptic wasteland.

See, this? This is what I wish most of my debates looked like. Reasonable, respectful discussion of an issue.

As for the reply, yeah, we're not entirely sure what consciousness is, much less when it starts or ends. I agree that the majority of the debate is when an embryo becomes a human. The hard part is when people argue feelings vs science. I can't wait until we figure out consciousness, if we ever do.

[Total Crica]

While I agree with the other points, I can't on this one. If they are in a relationship, the father should know and make a decision about the relationship (not about the abortion) based on that.

This is a choice alot of women would make if abortions were not accepted. That is the point I was trying to make to the poster I quoted.

- - - Updated - - -

>>Looks at maps
Iceland, Great Britain, and (especially) Ireland are restrictive, yet have none/negligible unsafe abortions. Even third-world Finland is restrictive with none/negligible.

Or were you trying to compare the US to African, Middle-eastern, and South-American countries?

You are not taking into account the fact that not all abortions are recorded.

[Orbitus]

I think more of having a conscious brain as when it begins.

16-21 weeks is the first sign of unconscious impulses and reflexes such as swallowing and sucking, so I think the 12 week figure is a bit early for your definition, as a nervous system is formed but not actually doing anything yet. Anyway, at 24 weeks is when the brainstem is fully formed, and reflexes like blinking start happening. 26 weeks is when we finally see REM and active brain events beyond reflexes -- consciousness. This happens to be the end of the second trimester or so.

The majority of the states (38/50) ban abortions after 24-26 weeks or earlier, fitting what I see pretty well.

Also, don't forget, that some of the diseases can't be tested for before the 12th week. Most of the tests are done between the 14th and 18th weeks for things like Down Syndrome. http://www.healthline.com/health/pre...ting#Takeaway7

[Azadina]

>>Looks at maps
Iceland, Great Britain, and (especially) Ireland are restrictive, yet have none/negligible unsafe abortions. Even third-world Finland is restrictive with none/negligible.

Or were you trying to compare the US to African, Middle-eastern, and South-American countries?

If Finland is third world, then sorry to say, but US ranks below the latter places you mentioned in comparison.

[Zeth Hawkins]

You are not taking into account the fact that not all abortions are recorded.

You're saying that Iceland, Britain, Ireland, and Finland have a significant number of unrecorded unsafe abortions? I'd love to see some numbers on that claim.

If Finland is third world, then sorry to say, but US ranks below the latter places you mentioned in comparison.

Two things:
First, yes Finland is third world (turns out Ireland is as well)
Blue: first world
Red: second world
Green: third world


Second, US ranks below those African, Middle-eastern, and South-American countries when comparing what?