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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    For christsakes, now you're contradicting yourself or what else I really don't know...arguing in circles just to argue?

    Your post #194: "People should be doing things because they enjoy it, not because they expect a reward. Such a millennial way of thinking. If you really want rewards get a high PvP rating for title and mount, or go slay dragons."

    I'm not one of those people that needs the shiny, I would've thought you'd understood that considering the back and forth we've had so far.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by rda View Post
    You don't get it.

    Suppose the players do get better. All 85% of them. All 100% of them even. Did their ratings change? No, they are exactly the same as before they all "got better".

    That's what is meant by "by design". It really is by design. The system is designed to have only a small percentage on top. By design.

    Get it now?

    Your advice to "get better" does not work if it is applied universally. It only kind of works if applied to a few players who then get better *and take ratings = gear away* from other people who were used to be "better" before. (Ie, you, for example. Or me, if I kept playing, or some others in the thread.)

    - - - Updated - - -
    I can't truly believe you're serious with the point you are making.

    The reality is that the 85% isn't all getting better at the same time.

    YOU just need to get better than those standing between YOU and the rating you need. YOU need to get better relative to those around or ahead of YOU.

    Is that hard to understand?

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    That's a silly concept that just happens to fall in line with Blizz getting off the hook for shitty design. Has nothing to do with "millennial" thinking, it has to do with people play games and sports for rewards, not just the act of playing them.
    Pvp is about improving his rating, not getting gear.

    Unranked pvp is pointless.

  4. #224
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    Pvp is about improving his rating, not getting gear.

    Unranked pvp is pointless.
    Not when people play unranked for the rewards it has such as acheives and titles (Jenkins, Bloodthirsty, Gorgeous, Battlemaster/Khan, of the Alli/Horde, etc.).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pvp guy View Post
    I'm not one of those people that needs the shiny, I would've thought you'd understood that considering the back and forth we've had so far.
    You haven't made any sense since you said people should play for no rewards.
    Last edited by Caolela; 2016-12-27 at 01:32 AM.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Not when people play unranked for the rewards it has such as acheives and titles (Jenkins, Bloodthirsty, Gorgeous, Battlemaster/Khan, of the Alli/Horde, etc.).

    - - - Updated - - -



    You haven't made any sense since you said people should play for no rewards.
    Lol ok, I'm not being the one not making sense here. You, as usual, resort to your tinfoil hattery and claim anyone who thinks differently than you must be a Blizz defending shill. I even agree with you on the subject that winning should be rewarding, yet you continue to come up with nonsense trash to keep dragging this out. At no point did I say players should play for NO rewards, so way to try to twist words to suit your own agenda. Just more of your nonsense I guess.

  6. #226
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Shrewtheimmortal View Post
    I miss wod loot system.
    I even miss Ahsran gearing.

    You could ding 100 and geat geared in 2 days of playing Ashran and dive right into the Arena.

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by randomforum View Post
    I give a damn about not getting one shot by someone who simply has no life and spends 16 hours/day in rbgs or arenas.
    You mean scrubs passing half a day trying to win more than they lost.

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Not when people play unranked for the rewards it has such as acheives and titles (Jenkins, Bloodthirsty, Gorgeous, Battlemaster/Khan, of the Alli/Horde, etc.)
    If you do pvp just for the titles and achievements, why are you complaining about not having gear?

  9. #229
    Deleted
    Coming from multi glad who pved. Since vanilla.

    Part of fun was gearing up your character. Both pve and pvp supplemented each other but weren't forced. Choosing the optimal stats it felt right, you saw your character grow stronger improve over time. The 2k rating weapon and 2.2k rating shoulders were huge in TBC, it gave you massive epeen.

    People who pvp purely for pvp are extremely small minority, because pvp is in shitty state. Caster cleaves having non dr cc, globaling people only specific classes actually having a chance. If you got unlucky your class is shit, you only got okish dmg while others have dmg+utility.
    Templates remove gear optimization which is quite important in mmorpg. Puting all the decent tools in honor talents which require insane hours to unlock.

    They need to restore old school pvp gearing that will fix pvp participation aswell. Arena,RBG for main pieces, BGs for offpieces. Remove templates.

  10. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by Killadrix View Post
    I can't truly believe you're serious with the point you are making.

    The reality is that the 85% isn't all getting better at the same time.

    YOU just need to get better than those standing between YOU and the rating you need. YOU need to get better relative to those around or ahead of YOU.

    Is that hard to understand?
    You don't understand the point I am making, or if you do you hide it well.

    It is telling that all you can say about it is that you "can't believe I am making it".

    Google the meaning of the word "suppose". I guess you are stuck on that word. Your "the reality is bla bla bla" is absolutely, completely irrelevant.

    The advice to "get better" does not work if applied universally, by design. That's the point.

  11. #231
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pvp guy View Post
    Lol ok, I'm not being the one not making sense here. You, as usual, resort to your tinfoil hattery and claim anyone who thinks differently than you must be a Blizz defending shill. I even agree with you on the subject that winning should be rewarding, yet you continue to come up with nonsense trash to keep dragging this out. At no point did I say players should play for NO rewards, so way to try to twist words to suit your own agenda. Just more of your nonsense I guess.
    Except that you said this: "People should be doing things because they enjoy it, not because they expect a reward. Such a millennial way of thinking. If you really want rewards get a high PvP rating for title and mount, or go slay dragons."

    Notice that was YOUR nonsense, not something I made up.

    It isn't "tinfoil hattery" to see why Blizz has done what they've done to the game, despite their obvious lies and PR spin. Any 10-year old without blinders on could see it...everything from excessive RNG piled on RNG, to looking the other way on cheaters for years, to cash shop, to racials, to over-simplification and dumbing down of classes, to the ladder collapse in Rated PvP, and a dozen other examples.

    Some of you are still stuck thinking there's something like a Blizzard North left, which has long since left the building. Since Acti took over, it's nothing but a for-profit business now, not a for-players game dev. They don't have your best interests in mind, only their bottom line.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sencha View Post
    If you do pvp just for the titles and achievements, why are you complaining about not having gear?
    Inventing more crap out of thin air again? I guess that's all some of you can do when you have no sensible argument.

    Saying people play unrated PvP for rewards like titles and chieves is not complaining about "not having gear".

  12. #232
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    Regarding Legion S1 since i no longer play, I don't see how having some kind of conquest gear at 850/875(pvp) wod style would have been so gamebreaking. Templates are still there, in wpvp the power spectrum between characters is shortened and transmoggers/casuals have something to pvp for.

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly32 View Post
    We need to bring back resilience. People in full pvp gear SHOULD destroy ungeared newbs
    Obviously this is how you attract newbs to PvP, by making it pointless for them to compete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    Since Acti took over, it's nothing but a for-profit business now, not a for-players game dev. They don't have your best interests in mind, only their bottom line.
    Blizzard was wildly successful and profitable since its early days, and from the first days of its existence the "game company" has always had a major financial partner.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    not because they expect a reward. Such a millennial way of thinking. If you really want rewards get a high PvP rating for title and mount, or go slay dragons."
    Except that doesn't work. Even for those who do get those titles and top end rewards they lack any kind of reason to keep participating throughout the season as there are no other rewards or sense of accomplishment and progress. Further, it means everyone else has zero reason to do anything at all as by sheer numbers it's impossible for everyone to get to that point.

    It's from the get go a pyramide system that requires lower ranked people so others can get higher ranks. Those on lower ranks get nothing, drop out, the entire pyramide collapses and reetablishes itself except it now lacks a level pushing more people down. Who in turn are now the lower ranks who get no reward or anything and will quit. Rinse and repeat till it's dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Obviously this is how you attract newbs to PvP, by making it pointless for them to compete.
    Except, it attracted them anyway. You found many, many of these people slogging through Ashran or random BGs to gear up and fight that uphill battle till they eventually could compete on an even field or where themselves the geared players. Veterans and new players alike. It gave people a sense of purpose, a reason to play and participate, a feeling of making progress and growing stronger and to come back. It made even losses slowly get them ahead rather than being a complete waste.

    Instead you now created a system where ALL of that is gone and nothing has improved. A new player will still get brutally curbstomped by a veteran except there is no sense of progress or getting stronger anymore at all. There's no reason for them to keep playing, nothing to be gained and a loss is actually punished with no bandaid in terms of reward to show for it.

    You people claimed it would motivate players to "win" and "be invested" but exactly as warned it did the exact opposite. Nobody is showing up anymore. Losses feel even worse. There's nothing in it even when winning and so on and on. You basically advocated the equivalent of a "Communist" system and it did exactly what it always did.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Instead you now created a system where ALL of that is gone and nothing has improved. A new player will still get brutally curbstomped by a veteran except there is no sense of progress or getting stronger anymore at all. There's no reason for them to keep playing, nothing to be gained and a loss is actually punished with no bandaid in terms of reward to show for it.
    All right, if you say so. Personally the reason I quit PvP after about 120,000 HKs was OP arena gear (from Cata - WoD), various iterations of premade addons, and of course bots.

    If you have a random BG full of newbies and a few overgeared ranked players then it doesn't matter that much that there are a few tanky players running around. You can just avoid them or wait till you can gang up on them. But when unranked PvP has a bunch of overgeared players ... on vent ... and bots ... and you can't even stay alive much less make a contribution, then all the newbies leave, and PvP dies.

    What Blizzard has done with its "communist" system is make it possible for PvP to survive, even if you don't want it to.

  16. #236
    Would like if they add PVP vendors that sell gear based on your rating with Mark of Honor in 7.1.5. Example: at 1600 rate you can buy 865ilvl gear, at 2000 you can buy 880ilvl and also unlock the whole Elite PVP set via token similar to TOV sets.

  17. #237
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    What Blizzard has done with its "communist" system is make it possible for PvP to survive, even if you don't want it to.
    Participation in Legion Season 1 is down by 80% compared to Legion Season 3. Random Battlegrounds are dead. Arena is dead. RBG is dead. I'm uncertain as to how a reduction of the player base by 4/5 and effectively shooting PvP in the head compared TO THE VERY END OF AN EXPANSION means they made it possible to survive.

    It honestly feels, that similar to the other person I addressed. You aren't actually playing PvP and have no stake in it.

  18. #238
    The Lightbringer Caolela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Except that doesn't work. Even for those who do get those titles and top end rewards they lack any kind of reason to keep participating throughout the season as there are no other rewards or sense of accomplishment and progress. Further, it means everyone else has zero reason to do anything at all as by sheer numbers it's impossible for everyone to get to that point.

    It's from the get go a pyramide system that requires lower ranked people so others can get higher ranks. Those on lower ranks get nothing, drop out, the entire pyramide collapses and reetablishes itself except it now lacks a level pushing more people down. Who in turn are now the lower ranks who get no reward or anything and will quit. Rinse and repeat till it's dead.

    You need to pay better attention to who you're quoting. That was Pvp guy's statement I was quoting, and I've already refuted that idea several times in the thread.

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deleth View Post
    Participation in Legion Season 1 is down by 80% compared to Legion Season 3. Random Battlegrounds are dead. Arena is dead. RBG is dead. I'm uncertain as to how a reduction of the player base by 4/5 and effectively shooting PvP in the head compared TO THE VERY END OF AN EXPANSION means they made it possible to survive.

    It honestly feels, that similar to the other person I addressed. You aren't actually playing PvP and have no stake in it.
    Saying that someone with 120k HKs has no stake in PvP is just stupid.

    You should contemplate the reasons that people said "fuck this" to PvP the preceding three expansions. I gave you my three. Maybe you will enlighten yourself.

  20. #240
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Caolela View Post
    You need to pay better attention to who you're quoting. That was Pvp guy's statement I was quoting, and I've already refuted that idea several times in the thread.
    Well now you gone and done it, you quoted me quoting you quoting him and responding to that. I wasn't as much responding to you specifically but the quote you quoted chiming in on why that doesn't work similar to a discussion round as a third party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Normie View Post
    Saying that someone with 120k HKs has no stake in PvP is just stupid.

    You should contemplate the reasons that people said "fuck this" to PvP the preceding three expansions. I gave you my three. Maybe you will enlighten yourself.
    "Look at my neglibel ammount of HK!". The game is 12 years old, that roughly translates into 4380 days. Which means if you have started at the beginning that's about 27 honor kills a day. Or less than a single BG. Farm groups used to be a thing, groups that would rack up several hundred kills in a single Battleground also.

    No, your ammount of HK says very little about you or how invested you are in PvP. Especially since things such as Tol Barad, Wintergraps or Ashran would hand out massive ammounts of HK for very little actual PvP. Having to resort to HK as an argument while ignoring the massive drop in participation in PvP actually makes you LESS believable.
    Last edited by mmoc5e6c40f22c; 2016-12-28 at 12:30 AM.

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