MM vs BM PVE in 7.1.5

[Trapped]

I plan on playing both specs depending on the fight, just like I did in EN and ToV. No one really knows what spec will be "top" after the patch. Anyone claiming one is better than the other is probably just a fanboy. Keep an open mind here, people.

[Megotaku77]

I dont even play BM. Im just saying if you think MM is complex than BM, then i really dont know what to say

Let me help you: "I don't know what I'm talking about".

*edit* And looking up your armory reinforces everything I've been saying about this expansion. Gear trumps skill. Socketed Unstable Arcanocrystal, Warforged Aran's Ruby and that's just the start of extremely lucky RNG drops you have. 13k Mastery for an 881 is impossible with EN gear.

[ydraw]

A spec with 40% waiting time, so much fun! You can almost play two BM hunters at the same time.

I don't find overly complex rotations fun, that's why I play a hunter. The fun is in the strategic challenge of defeating raid bosses. If the best way to do that is to play MM, I will play MM. If it's BM, I'll play BM. I have > 95% parses playing both specs.

Stop pretending you're a genius for being able to play Marksmanship, it is the 2nd easiest ranged spec in the game.

- - - Updated - - -

Let me help you: "I don't know what I'm talking about".

*edit* And looking up your armory reinforces everything I've been saying about this expansion. Gear trumps skill. Socketed Unstable Arcanocrystal, Warforged Aran's Ruby and that's just the start of extremely lucky RNG drops you have. 13k Mastery for an 881 is impossible with EN gear.

And yet all his rankings were achieved while wearing Prydaz, so he's beating guys with 2 BIS dps legendaries with one of the worst.

Your argument is pathetic.

[Jellospally]

Let me help you: "I don't know what I'm talking about".

*edit* And looking up your armory reinforces everything I've been saying about this expansion. Gear trumps skill. Socketed Unstable Arcanocrystal, Warforged Aran's Ruby and that's just the start of extremely lucky RNG drops you have. 13k Mastery for an 881 is impossible with EN gear.

I mean saying 13k mas is impossible with EN gear isn't exactly true. I only have Kara Chest/Ruby + 1 M+ item a ring 880 no socket. I have 12k mastery on the dot and my other trinket is BTI. If I had a Arcano I would almost have 13k before food. I am in 100% raid gear(gloves are meh have has/crit)

Could replace the chest with Elerethe chest and a stat stick and have the same mastery(sure it would be less dmg slightly single target and less aoe depending on rng of procs)

[Yizu]

Let me help you: "I don't know what I'm talking about".

*edit* And looking up your armory reinforces everything I've been saying about this expansion. Gear trumps skill. Socketed Unstable Arcanocrystal, Warforged Aran's Ruby and that's just the start of extremely lucky RNG drops you have. 13k Mastery for an 881 is impossible with EN gear.

I play BM on mythic+only, so i do know what im taking about, you wer arguing MM is complex. Its not.

You probly dont even play BM at all, and u think the way how to play bm is just press whatever is up, starving yourself like an idiot. BM has more engaging resource/cooldown management than MM just because you spend more time idling and waiting to pool resources doesnt make it less complex than MM.. MM is all about fitting 3 aimed shots on a rotation block, and press trushot on pull and at 20%, wow! so complex!

[Megotaku77]

And yet all his rankings were achieved while wearing Prydaz, so he's beating guys with 2 BIS dps legendaries with one of the worst.

Your argument is pathetic.

You are aware that Prydaz is one of the top DPS legendaries for MM just through sheer itemization, right? You are also aware that the best-in-slot MM legendary is a 2.5% damage increase? You are aware that 2 BiS legendaries in no way will compensate for the fact that he has 2000-3000 more character sheet, unbuffed mastery than most Mythic MM hunters do?

Of course you don't. Because you don't know what you're talking about.

He literally just argued that BM is complex while also admitting 33% of its DPS time is spent idling.

[Yizu]

You are aware that Prydaz is one of the top DPS legendaries for MM just through sheer itemization, right? You are also aware that the best-in-slot MM legendary is a 2.5% damage increase? You are aware that 2 BiS legendaries in no way will compensate for the fact that he has 2000-3000 more character sheet, unbuffed mastery than most Mythic MM hunters do?

Of course you don't. Because you don't know what you're talking about.

He literally just argued that BM is complex while also admitting 33% of its DPS time is spent idling.

You're the one who used the term "complex" first, i did not say BM or MM is complex, neither of them is complex. And you keep saying MM is complex when a shit hunter can get 97-99 ranks just by itemization. LOL that only means that the skill ceiling is really low

[Megotaku77]

You're the one who used the term "complex" first, i did not say BM or MM is complex, neither of them is complex. And you keep saying MM is complex when a shit hunter can get 97-99 ranks just by itemization. LOL that only means that the skill ceiling is really low

You'd be hard-pressed to find any class where this wasn't the case. In fact, it's far worse for BM because itemization barely matters compared to MM. Literally the only thing that matters for BM is if you have belt + ring and you're all but guaranteed 95th percentile parses.

Also, please point out where I said MM is extremely complex. There's no comparing them in terms of complexity. MM has to movement mute. BM doesn't. MM has to store procs for add switching. BM doesn't. MM has to position for maximum DPS. BM doesn't. In terms of needing basic raid skills, raid awareness and experience with encounter design, if you really think BM is "just as complex as MM", then you are a bad player. Nothing is worse than when a bad player gets good drops and then brags about how much they "know".

[Arrol]

A spec with 40% waiting time, so much fun! You can almost play two BM hunters at the same time.

MM has like 5% wait time. But yaknow sure, pull a number out of your ass, thats completely hilariously wrong, that surely makes people think you know what you're talking about

[Yizu]

Also, please point out where I said MM is extremely complex. There's no comparing them in terms of complexity. MM has to movement mute. BM doesn't. MM has to store procs for add switching. BM doesn't. MM has to position for maximum DPS. BM doesn't. In terms of needing basic raid skills, raid awareness and experience with encounter design, if you really think BM is "just as complex as MM", then you are a bad player. Nothing is worse than when a bad player gets good drops and then brags about how much they "know".

OK didnt realize those things is so hard to manage, ok u win

[Arrol]

I play both specs and neither is very difficult. MM is the 2nd easiest ranged spec in the game, stop pretending you're some kind of wizard for choosing it lol.

This might come as a shock to you but some of us are choosing BM because it actually does higher single target DPS than MM does. And the logs bear this out, even in mythic where MM is more popular.

BM is better than MM on about half the fights in this tier, and many top hunters think the scale will slide even further towards BM in the next tier. You can belittle BM players all you want, it won't change those facts.

BM is not better ST, logs do not support that, and BM is not better for half of the fights in the tier.

Neither is a SUPER difficult spec (tho difficulty is subjective so) and even if it is the 2nd easiest ranged spec, that doesnt mean its 40% downtime play blindfolded easy as some are claiming. Note that nobody is claiming they are a wizard god tier best gamer athene of all time for playing MM, you're strawmanning.

- - - Updated - - -

Let me help you: "I don't know what I'm talking about".

*edit* And looking up your armory reinforces everything I've been saying about this expansion. Gear trumps skill. Socketed Unstable Arcanocrystal, Warforged Aran's Ruby and that's just the start of extremely lucky RNG drops you have. 13k Mastery for an 881 is impossible with EN gear.

13k mastery is possible from like 855 crafted gear, and lucky gear drops wont lead you to 90% logs either. He's not a shit player, but he's not that good. The lack of depth he has in playing the spec leads him to think its not more complex than BM when in reality it is, and that lack of depth is holding him back from 99% logs.

- - - Updated - - -

I play BM on mythic+only, so i do know what im taking about, you wer arguing MM is complex. Its not.

You probly dont even play BM at all, and u think the way how to play bm is just press whatever is up, starving yourself like an idiot. BM has more engaging resource/cooldown management than MM just because you spend more time idling and waiting to pool resources doesnt make it less complex than MM.. MM is all about fitting 3 aimed shots on a rotation block, and press trushot on pull and at 20%, wow! so complex!

MM's complexity comes from spending the resources without losing casts, as you spend more resources you naturally fill the previous downtime that existed because now you're actually using all the resources possible to generate. It is not trrivially easy to spend all resources without losing casts. That is the reason it is more complex and dynamic than BM. Just because you think a spec is as simple as 3 aimeds in vuln does not mean playing the spec optimally is that simple. You just lack the skill to know what you're missing.

[Megotaku77]

13k mastery is possible from like 855 crafted gear, and lucky gear drops wont lead you to 90% logs either. He's not a shit player, but he's not that good. The lack of depth he has in playing the spec leads him to think its not more complex than BM when in reality it is, and that lack of depth is holding him back from 99% logs.

That was the only time I had 13k Mastery. The point was that maintaining 13k Mastery at ilvl 880+ AVG is unheard of. It doesn't generally happen. I'm 882 with 9118 Mastery and that's not a "git gud nub, you're itemizing wrong" that's with Simcrafted stat weights imported into Pawn running BiS checklists on trinkets and legendaries doing the best I can with the drops I get. If I had the kind of gear he has, I'd be parsing top 30 on every fight. Not bragging about how easy it is to score 90th percentile while facerolling with gear that borders on the statistically impossible to attain.

MM has like 5% wait time. But yaknow sure, pull a number out of your ass, thats completely hilariously wrong, that surely makes people think you know what you're talking about

Check the simcraft. BM wait time accounts for 39.3% of rotation time as of the T19 sims. That's when played at the "elite" level using a focus cost reduction belt.

[ridiculous87]

Roger said this 2 PTR patch cycles ago, he's not a theorycrafter and while he's a good player, he's being misleading as fuck by spreading misinformation like that. The class is still receiving mechanical changes possibly based on the latest blue posts, and tuning hasnt finished yet, and hadnt when he said he was going BM also.

BM being mobile was the case in EN too, MM was still dominant in EN. The only reason roger is swapping loot spec to BM is he has the MM legendaries he wants already, if he didnt have boots and belt, I think its highly unlikely he would be swapping.

Pretty much none of this is accurate.

It doesn't matter if he's a theoycrafter or not. He's one of the best hunters in the game for a reason. Instead of crunching numbers and running sims, he played the spec in Nighthold first hand and formed his opinion, which holds more weight than some theorycrafter reading patch notes and doing napkin math. I honestly cant tell if your comment was serious or you're trolling.

It's not that BM is more mobile, it's like MM is LESS mobile in 7.1.5 than it is in 7.1. Combined that to the fact that you need to be hitting aimed shots with .1 seconds left of vulnerable to maximize damage and what do you have? AIDS, pure AIDS. Good luck doing that with heavy movement or MS over 50. That is only the beginning too. Low focus cap, virtually no focus regen, noodle markedshots (granted they might be doing something about this, but regardless we won't have enough focus to take advantage anyway) and a plethora of other shitty changes and you have a potato spec.

[Deleted]

A spec with 40% waiting time, so much fun! You can almost play two BM hunters at the same time.

doesnt feel like 40% waiting time for me (im 20% haste though) might help.

[Holovik]

This circle jerk really is interesting. Everyone gets so polarized on what spec they play that they will actually get angry at people for defending themselves on why they play the spec that they play. Why not just play what suites the situation the best? Heading in to do TOV, go MM. Want to go push that M+ but you have no lust or brez, go BM. It looks like with the current changes on the PTR 7.1.5 will up MM's single target damage while reducing its cleave, that's cool. Go MM for single target fights and BM for aoe fights.

The pretentious fucks that come into these threads and belittle anyone who plays a spec that is different than them need to calm down. Master both specs, shut the fuck up about it, be helpful to other people. Your chosen spec is not some elite club that you are gracing with your presence.

[Deleted]

This circle jerk really is interesting. Everyone gets so polarized on what spec they play that they will actually get angry at people for defending themselves on why they play the spec that they play. Why not just play what suites the situation the best? Heading in to do TOV, go MM. Want to go push that M+ but you have no lust or brez, go BM. It looks like with the current changes on the PTR 7.1.5 will up MM's single target damage while reducing its cleave, that's cool. Go MM for single target fights and BM for aoe fights.

The pretentious fucks that come into these threads and belittle anyone who plays a spec that is different than them need to calm down. Master both specs, shut the fuck up about it, be helpful to other people. Your chosen spec is not some elite club that you are gracing with your presence.

nownow, not everyone i played bm cause i found it the most appealing of the hunter specs in pve and would make it work regardless - mythic raiding and mythic + found marks gives up too big util in mythic+ to do competitive damage (though this may or may not be true).

Ultimately i play bm for all pve content, mm for rated bgs and survival for arena guess i just love the class as a whole!

[Yhcti]

Just messed around on my Hunter at ilvl 841 comparing my BM and MM, both have 23 artifact traits so are equal.

bursting the target dummy my MM spec climbed to 791k at it's peak then surfed at 250-400k. My BM spec however peaked at 391k then surfed at 200k.. Any reason why my BM spec bursts so low? I'm the typical spec that everyone else uses.. on the opener I dire beast -> pop all cd's -> kill command then rotate KC and AS until BW drops then back to DB -> KC/AS rotation...

Swapping to PvP mostly so am gearing Survival, but because I heard bad things about MM in 7.1.5 I'm trying to get used to BM as my PvE spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Well said @Holovik. I'm actually unlocked all traits on all 3 specs before I start smashing points into the 54 trait target.. I'm casual so I'd rather have access to all 3 specs without huge restrictions. Doing the same on my DH with HAvoc and Vengeance, unlocking every trait first so I can swap whenever.

[Deleted]

Ultimately what our MM friends say doesn't matter too much and people shouldn't ONLY look at numbers but check if you enjoy the spec play style wise (personally would be very unhappy if id have to play a low mobility spec like MM).

About pve:

In mythic+, 7.1.5s bm barrage change will push bm by far over mm in util and damage. And i mean BY FAR.

In raids, purely on damage versatility wise, mm might deal better dam at the highest percentiles mainly due to their ability to damage spread cleave better and execute mechanic and most importantly (and where people get confused when looking only at logs) their damage POTENTIAL - though potential might as well fuck you over as push you ahead. Where MM i.e. is between 80 and 120% of their median - BM is kinda always kinda at 100. Logs aside even vs BIS legendary MM hunters i go toe to toe when only having 1 dps legendary as BM - UNTIL execute range where they can pull ahead (logically as 20% crit is a like 6000(guess) crit rating). The spread cleave issue of BM will be partially fixed in 7.1.5 where BM barrage is made close to equal to MMs version and between beastcleave and BWed barrage - i think bm actually has a shot at pulling ahead on spread cleave and more reliable damage (bm being unaffected by high mobility fights).

Not to mention a point ive mentioned many time where BM has 5-9 legendaries being very good dps increase - vs 2 of MMs - though this might be bit less important soon where it might be highest stat budget piece with agi might be "BIS".

And if you dont believe me on m+ - feel free to add me EU alliance zymos#2997 and ill show you :-P

Edit: moved this post from wrong thread

[Banard]

Y MM has to position for maximum DPS. BM doesn't. In terms of needing basic raid skills, raid awareness and experience with encounter design, if you really think BM is "just as complex as MM", then you are a bad player. Nothing is worse than when a bad player gets good drops and then brags about how much they "know".

or some player who does understand the "complexity" of pet control and pet movement and which target to attack when to max dps. Where moving that pet by a wee bit doubles or triples your damage.


or some bad player who thinks anything in about any class mechanic is "complex and engaging" in wow.

Nothing is worse then when a bad player doesn't realise he is playing a spec that really only performs well on 2 fights in EN and 1 fight in ToV.....but you know 3/10 fights...got to give it to ya.....MM is some engaging press a few buttons and seeing huge numbers because of aoe burst...nom nom nom that is some skill there.

- - - Updated - - -

Just messed around on my Hunter at ilvl 841 comparing my BM and MM, both have 23 artifact traits so are equal.

bursting the target dummy my MM spec climbed to 791k at it's peak then surfed at 250-400k. My BM spec however peaked at 391k then surfed at 200k.. Any reason why my BM spec bursts so low? I'm the typical spec that everyone else uses.. on the opener I dire beast -> pop all cd's -> kill command then rotate KC and AS until BW drops then back to DB -> KC/AS rotation...

Swapping to PvP mostly so am gearing Survival, but because I heard bad things about MM in 7.1.5 I'm trying to get used to BM as my PvE spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Well said @Holovik. I'm actually unlocked all traits on all 3 specs before I start smashing points into the 54 trait target.. I'm casual so I'd rather have access to all 3 specs without huge restrictions. Doing the same on my DH with HAvoc and Vengeance, unlocking every trait first so I can swap whenever.

23 traits.......





In the end all this MM vs BM crap needs to stop. All three hunter specs suck fucking monkey balls.

(1) BM was better in wod and mop
(2) MM was better play style in HFC with instant aim shot....i also remember it being fun in ICC but cant remember why...100% armor pen?

(3) surv was better from wotlk to wod.

In every version since wotlk hunters have been better and more enjoyable. Nothing in legion regarding hunter game play should be defended or thought of as "complex" or eveb "engaging".

If i have not played 1 toon for 10+ years i would not be playing hunter at the moment. If i was to pick up this game fresh....fuck i would not get past level 5 cause its boring as shit to level.


It time to stop the MM and BM argument and just say blizzard fucking do something else already.

[Deleted]

It time to stop the MM and BM argument and just say blizzard fucking do something else already.

I love the MM vs BM argument why should it stop? How amazing is it for a class to have MULTIPLE specs that people love to play and perform rather well. Its a 1st world problem and its a good sign. Dks, wars and rogues and soon mages (mythic+ wise) have the same issue where multiple specs are competitive. It helps community forming and a spirit of competitiveness which makes people thrive! Keep it up blizz and Banard and that little bastard Megataco77, and keep it up with the pointless posts on this topic