Vengeance Image Problem

[Burning Synapses]

That doesn't make sense. You're saying their health bar behaves very differently from a mitigation tank - which is somehow why healers don't need to adjust.

Yeah. Different damage intakes means different ways to heal. Druids just take less % of their health over time, giving you time to react. Paladins soak as much as 10% of their damage intake in shields and even in a tough fight have plenty buttons to take less damage or heal up, so they spike up and down but a good pally has it so finely under control the healer is there mostly to top him off and cover for when everything's on cooldown.
DHs...well. Consider how much people complained about brewmasters because contrary to other tanks they instead...kinda took a huge permadot, but in the end they're fine, if punitive on mistakes.
Demon Hunters are in a similar place, for their own reasons.

So yeah. They're healed differently (which doesn't automatically mean harder).
People are not used to them.
Not even blizzard is used to them, considering they're being patched a buff!

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Yeah. Different damage intakes means different ways to heal. Druids just take less % of their health over time, giving you time to react. Paladins soak as much as 10% of their damage intake in shields and even in a tough fight have plenty buttons to take less damage or heal up, so they spike up and down but a good pally has it so finely under control the healer is there mostly to top him off and cover for when everything's on cooldown.
DHs...well. Consider how much people complained about brewmasters because contrary to other tanks they instead...kinda took a huge permadot, but in the end they're fine, if punitive on mistakes.
Demon Hunters are in a similar place, for their own reasons.

So yeah. They're healed differently (which doesn't automatically mean harder).
People are not used to them.
Not even blizzard is used to them, considering they're being patched a buff!

You sound like you have healed them. How much do you think it would help if more healers thought through and understood the Last Resort mechanic? I tell my guild healers not to worry about me too much unless that procs. They can toss some light heals to help even me out, but certainly don't use panic heals when I can't really die. I tank entire instances without it ever proc'ing, which means I was never in any danger. Only when that procs do we need to start being careful, and then only for 3 minutes until the debuff expires.

[Super Kami Dende]

Many Healers are lazy these days. thus generic stable tanks are easier things to heal. When I Tank on my DH with my friend who is a Mythic Raider on his healer alt, he spends most of the dungeons DPSing. He loves the self sustain of Veng DH.

[Burning Synapses]

No, just talked a lot to my healers. I practice asking for feedback since BC.

On Last Resort. If they know it, they panic less in tough situations until it pops. Less panicking is good. Healers that don't panic are healers that know what to do. That is until they overestimate you and heal so little you bump into it. As with all things, practice makes perfect.
I've been trying soul barrier instead of last resort because it's thrice more effective than soul cleave, and healing me certainly felt smoother. People still think squishy though.

[Tinary]

The healing is mostly issue with healers, my wife said after i got all 3 traits that dhs are the easiest to heal during tyrannical. Why? Cause even if i take damage during fight, i heal it up myself and she can heal up party and dps and shorten the fight. Only place i still have problems is dht +11 and on Oakhearth crushing grip and Hov hymdall in 11+ and on but i think its just bad cd management since i usually fuck up and pop meta at start for dps.

[epLe]

All people who compare current veng DHs to wrath Frost DKs ... The game is incredibly different in Legion than Wrath.
Yes superstitions and prejudice exist still but thats about it.

From healing point of view,

In Wrath : Toss a Hot and a direct heal or 2 on tank and you got him healed up in a few seconds.
In Legion : Spam direct heals as much as you can, while tank is doing the same for a significantly longer time.

How tanks(vengeance) actually get to choose to heal or mitigate when it matters,
compared to just spamming their rotations is a huge improvement in playstyle.

But yes the meta-problem with all the focus on Ilvls, logs, meters, parsings, rankings and percentiles...
Is how even the most nerdy people get so judge-dredd-mental....

This is still just a game. The game changes, and so the players change -not always for the better.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

All people who compare current veng DHs to wrath Frost DKs ...

I would compare VDHs to Blood DKs before the latter got Blood Shield. Strong self heals but designed to need them. VDHs have good survivability; their play style just makes it harder for healers to plan their resource use, especially if the healer doesn't have much experience with VDHs. Easiest thing to heal is a big ol' bear with a big ol' health bar that moves very slowly.

Blood DKs became much more popular once they got Blood Shield and became less spiky. I should know; I mained a Blood DK from WotLK through Cataclysm as this transition happened.

[Absintheminded]

I would compare VDHs to Blood DKs before the latter got Blood Shield. Strong self heals but designed to need them. VDHs have good survivability; their play style just makes it harder for healers to plan their resource use, especially if the healer doesn't have much experience with VDHs. Easiest thing to heal is a big ol' bear with a big ol' health bar that moves very slowly.

Blood DKs became much more popular once they got Blood Shield and became less spiky. I should know; I mained a Blood DK from WotLK through Cataclysm as this transition happened.

Blood DK's got more popular because every single DK that tanked had to switch to Blood.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Blood DK's got more popular because every single DK that tanked had to switch to Blood.

True, but I meant compared to other tanks. Frost tanks were on their way out even before then, as Blood was proving superior. I started as Frost and switched to Blood because that's what raid leaders wanted. But we didn't truly come of age until Blood Shield. After Blood Shield, our health bars never spiked because we managed our shields rather than our health bars. The damage never got into our health bars unless the fight was going badly. That became the norm all through Cata, MoP, and WoD; it only changed again since Legion.

[Absintheminded]

True, but I meant compared to other tanks. Frost tanks were on their way out even before then, as Blood was proving superior. I started as Frost and switched to Blood because that's what raid leaders wanted. But we didn't truly come of age until Blood Shield. After Blood Shield, our health bars never spiked because we managed our shields rather than our health bars. The damage never got into our health bars unless the fight was going badly. That became the norm all through Cata, MoP, and WoD; it only changed again since Legion.

I'm biased when I say this, but UH was superior in nearly every way during Wrath, and a lot of that has to do with Bone Shield.

[Prag]

I'm biased when I say this, but UH was superior in nearly every way during Wrath, and a lot of that has to do with Blood Shield.

Only down to Unholy Blight. That build was a ton of fun when working through Naxx25. By ICC though, we were all running the same build for H-LK. Homogenization was quick, hoping the same doesn't turn true for Demon Hu... oh.

[Yhcti]

Haven't ever had someone complain about my survivability tbh.. I've solo tanked a lot of mythic/mythic+ bosses coz healers die to stupid things or I get compliments on how easily I can bring my health back up after spiking down (yay 1m soul cleaves). I do ask often if I'm alright as I don't always trust my defences, you can only roll spikes for so long before you have a downtime...

- - - Updated - - -

Edit: Oh boy, I miss those Dualwield Unholy tank days.. that was easily the most fun I ever had in WoW.

[Absintheminded]

Only down to Unholy Blight. That build was a ton of fun when working through Naxx25. By ICC though, we were all running the same build for H-LK. Homogenization was quick, hoping the same doesn't turn true for Demon Hu... oh.

I have to disagree. UH was boss on Sarth 3D progression.

[steelmaggot]

why does everyone take last resort? I'm a soul Barrier person, have a tracker, manage it well and never dip. healers love my stability and self heal (if you count an absorb as a heal)

its kind of like monk's old guard

[Tech614]

why does everyone take last resort? I'm a soul Barrier person, have a tracker, manage it well and never dip. healers love my stability and self heal (if you count an absorb as a heal)

its kind of like monk's old guard

It's nothing like Guard, it's a pitiful absorb amount in comparison to even MoP Guard let alone WoD Guard. It can be debated for raid content but for high level Mythic+ LR crushes it in a landslide. When you have an aoe pull you're basically immortal while in meta with SR.

[Tinary]

Last resort is good when you let it proc and use soul rending, above 10+ i feel like its useless since we run with a healer there and she keeps hots on so procing it when yku want is kinda difficult and ftd comes pretty handy on tyrannical bosses and huge pulls. Soul barrier is good on huge pulls also cause yesh that 1m absorb can be gone in a sec but after that, every cast and melee for 10 sec is reduced by 100k which is awsome, specially when you have ds and dmg redu from fragments up. Immortal is overrated since you cant heal trough oneshots, some bosses and trash dmg redu on absorb prove to be far more important than selfhealing but honestly, i personally just look at last resort as dps talent

[Absintheminded]

In fact, Sarth 3D being the only challenging fight for high end raiders for so long in early Wrath and Unholy DK being the best tank for it by a wide margin is why we even have this many tanking DKs imo. It got a lot of newly rolled toons to stick as mains.

Yeah early UH was so much fun, and it had a complete toolkit. It's unfortunate that UH tanking is gone, I'd still be playing DK main if they didn't change that.

[dcc626]

In fact, Sarth 3D being the only challenging fight for high end raiders for so long in early Wrath and Unholy DK being the best tank for it by a wide margin is why we even have this many tanking DKs imo. It got a lot of newly rolled toons to stick as mains.

actually, voidwalker was best tank for it (until nerf)

[Mathasyu]

What else can we do to reassure Azeroth that DH tanks can be trusted to get the job done?

I am gonna make some cookies and hand them out in ironforge! Possibly with a purple heart.
And every DH who never played tank before will only get one if he has 10 days played or more :-D

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I am gonna make some cookies and hand them out in ironforge! Possibly with a purple heart.
And every DH who never played tank before will only get one if he has 10 days played or more :-D

<3

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