Ariana Grande speaks out about objectification after fan encounter

[Kathandira]

Could be an idea to confront those you have a problem with when it happens, instead of crying afterwards.

To the former, Yes absolutely. Stand up for yourself.

To the latter, I don't really see it as "crying" but rather starting a dialog about it.

Just had an discussion about that last week. Someone was calling someone who was standing up for themselves (and others) in public. And the person who didn't agree with it called them a cry baby.

Kinda feels cheap to call someone a cry baby when they are just trying to tell the world about their experience, and start a discussion about it. Or in this case, to claim she is "crying" about it.

[fatgunn]

Why do you think this is a defense here, but wouldn't be a defense if someone literally raped her?

Because it's the same argument, you're just using it to defend a different behaviour. If it's a meritless defense for the one, it doesn't suddenly gain merit for the other.

Because all that happened was that some guy said something. A comment is not equivalent to rape. IF you're homeless and hungry and decide to steal some food I'm gonna treat it a lot differently than if you kill and eat someone's dog. Same justification, wildly different actions.

[Kathandira]

There's pretty much no one that doesn't know that being rude is...well, rude. And most of the time when it happens, it's just someone putting their foot in their mouth, or otherwise not engaging their brain before opening their mouth.

As for the other times, well...assholes exist and I can't change that. I can call them an asshole, but that never really fixed anything, so eh. They'll learn or they won't. (or they'll become a wealthy success, because assholes tend to get ahead!)

So no, every time someone does something rude, I don't feel the need or even see the point in trying to deconstruct every little bit of it so that I can make mountains out of whichever molehills I desire to.

I mean, I could get myself all worked up about how the guy who cut in front of me in line at the store was treating me like I didn't even exist and acted as if I was just a piece of furniture to be walked around and he didn't even consider my time or my feelings like I was some sort of mannequin and he probably doesn't even respect me as a human because he's a racist....or I can assume that he's an asshole that I need not worry about, or he made a mistake and we should all just move on.

In that situation, I would certainly speak up to him right then and there. Which She should have done as well (if she didn't). But I don't see any issue with her speaking out about it. Perhaps you are a bit more passive about expressing yourself and your feelings. Not sure. But others are more outspoken. Similar to how you expressed that some people are just rude. If you aren't going to stop people from being rude, why would you stop someone for being outspoken about it?

[nextormento]

Why do you think this is a defense here, but wouldn't be a defense if someone literally raped her?
Because it's the same argument

Unlike rape, the objectivization she subjects herself to is with her consent. It's her right of publicity to any commercial use of her identity that she controls and sells. She is an object of adoration by her own doing. She can stop merchandising her identity any time she wants.

The issue here, which I think Crissi covered already, is two entirely different arguments. The guy that approached her is a jerk, or at least socially inept. But her opposition to objectification of her persona is entirely unfounded so long as that is her product.

[Tulune]

Why do you think this is a defense here, but wouldn't be a defense if someone literally raped her?

Because it's the same argument, you're just using it to defend a different behaviour. If it's a meritless defense for the one, it doesn't suddenly gain merit for the other.

Apples and oranges. Are you seriously comparing a rude comment to an act of physical violence? Those are two *very* different things, so thinking that one defense is suitable for both is just stupid.

[Endus]

Unlike rape, the objectivization she subjects herself to is with her consent.

The whole thread is about her statement that she does not, so that makes this claim false, on its face.

[schwank05]

Dresses Like a Slut: Check
Acts Like a Slut: Check
Talks like a Slut: Check

Well according to my math she is in fact a Slut. Objectify away.

[Endus]

Apples and oranges. Are you seriously comparing a rude comment to an act of physical violence? Those are two *very* different things, so thinking that one defense is suitable for both is just stupid.

See, I'm obviously not trying to equate the two actions. I'm underscoring that the justifications used for those actions are the same. If that justification is without merit for one action, it doesn't suddenly have merit for another.

It's like saying "I took it because I really wanted it". That wouldn't justify stealing a car. It also wouldn't justify taking your friend's pencil. That the latter is relatively innocuous but dickish doesn't make it suddenly justified.

[Kathandira]

She certainly should expect it. I mean, I'm sure Neil deGrasse Tyson expects people to assume he knows physics. I'm sure Brad Pitt expects paparazzi to stalk him around if he's walking through the produce isle at the store. If you're a celebrity, you certainly have to expect certain things, and if your celebrity status revolves around certain things then you have to expect fans/people to remember that about you.

The thing that is missing here is:

"I'm sure Neil deGrasse Tyson expects people to assume he knows physics."

Well yeah, because he is a physicist.

"I'm sure Brad Pitt expects paparazzi to stalk him around if he's walking through the produce isle at the store"

Well yeah, that happens to literally every celebrity, especially when they are the "it" person to follow. Can't deny that.

However, with Ariana, she should be expected people to assume she can sing, because that is her career. Her career is not primarily a sex object. People may perceive it as such, but they would be a bit ignorant in disregarding the actual objective of her career, to be a singer.

[Deleted]

Not even a little bit, no. She's a singer. An artist.

Have you listen to her "art"? That is not even a little bit art, it is plain and simple selling sex. There is nothing wrong with that, but you cant complain about it either.

And, to be clear, even if someone's job revolves around their appearance, that does not in any way justify objectifying them. Your argument is essentially no different from that of rapists who claim "she was asking for it, dressing all slutty". It's completely wrongheaded; you're normalizing objectification of women.

No that isn't even remotely the same argument, as i've said, you do not seem to understand that it is her job to sell her image.

Even models, I'd argue, primarily serve as clothing racks, not sex symbols.

You could argue that, but no one would take you seriously.

Again, this is pretending that objectification is "normal" or "okay". It isn't. The second two sentences contradict the first.

Not everyone subscribes to the feminist theory as much as you do. Most people have no problem what so ever with "objectifying" in the sense what was done here.

[petej0]

Why do you think this is a defense here, but wouldn't be a defense if someone literally raped her?

Because it's the same argument, you're just using it to defend a different behaviour. If it's a meritless defense for the one, it doesn't suddenly gain merit for the other.

Firstly rape is illegal. If you sell yourself as a sexual object to be desired and to be wanted, how can you be upset that you are now seen as a sexual object? Secondly, someones thoughts are their own and in itself not illegal and even some speech. So you are saying it is ok to want and desire and view someone as a sex object as long as you dont express it verbally. How is that any different? The goal of being viewed as a sexual object has already been achieved, you just dont want to HEAR that you are being viewed that way.

It is being brushed off as if she deserves it, or at least she should expect it. Which I find to be quite ridiculous. I don't think anyone should accept being treated as an object, even if their fantasy persona reflects it.

But as a performer, perhaps I am a little more aware of it, and have felt it before as well. So perhaps I am on her side because we share in that.

She didnt deserve to be approached like that. It should be seen as inappropriate and disrespectful.

[Deleted]

Why do you think this is a defense here, but wouldn't be a defense if someone literally raped her?

Because it's the same argument, you're just using it to defend a different behaviour. If it's a meritless defense for the one, it doesn't suddenly gain merit for the other.

Because raping someone is bad, and "objectifying" someone is only bad in feminist theory.

[nextormento]

The whole thread is about her statement that she does not, so that makes this claim false, on its face.

There's no indication that she exercised her right to privacy and sent that fan packing. Failing that, she's wrong on the characterization of the event.
So she's socially inept too, or this is just a publicity stun.

[Deleted]

Except in that analogy, both actions are the same: stealing an item from someone else.

In the topic at hand, you're trying to somehow take "being rude" and put it in the same box as "raping someone" so that you can say, "Well, some nutjobs say rape is ok if the woman dresses a certain way and that's a justification so therefore any justification you use for this other completely different action is equal because it's also a justification."

Which, really, in the end just means that all reasons/justifications/etc are equivalent to the worst of all reasons/justifications/etc by your math, which is nonsense.

Yea he is famous for this, building up strawmans and trying to take the moral high ground. It is really ridiculous.

[Exeris]

To the former, Yes absolutely. Stand up for yourself.

To the latter, I don't really see it as "crying" but rather starting a dialog about it.

Just had an discussion about that last week. Someone was calling someone who was standing up for themselves (and others) in public. And the person who didn't agree with it called them a cry baby.

Kinda feels cheap to call someone a cry baby when they are just trying to tell the world about their experience, and start a discussion about it. Or in this case, to claim she is "crying" about it.

What was this person standing up against?

Didn't call anyone a baby btw, adults also cry and are cowards.(bit of a coward my self, most Norwegians are, we live such sheltered lives)

[Kathandira]

I'm sorry, but you're being insanely dishonest if you're going to pretend that performers of that ilk aren't using sex as a major branding/selling point and/or aspect of their performance persona.

It's like seeing a filmmaker that produces strictly documentaries on african children and asking them about african children, only to have them get upset at you because technically african children aren't their profession.

Never mind that even if this all isn't true or meaningful, there's still the reality that when you're a celebrity you pretty much ARE your image, regardless of the truth. Presenting yourself to the world as she does is going to create that image, whether it's fair or not. So either she expects the public to have that image, or she's being dishonest with herself.

Sorry, that isn't what I meant to imply at all. As a matter of fact, earlier in the tread I stated that she certainly uses her sex appeal as a marketing tool.

But then again, my band uses dark and creepy as a marketing tool, yet we all love kittens and rainbows (so to speak).

I wouldn't blame them for that, I blame the ignorant fans who can't tell the difference from a fantasy persona, and reality.

[Deleted]

But she's not objectifying herself.


She did some modelling, so yeah..
And thanks for showing my point: It's her hotness she is selling, not herself as some object.

Shes not objectifying herself

This guy in every thread spews shit like this

Nice world you live

[Zeth Hawkins]

Why do you think this is a defense here, but wouldn't be a defense if someone literally raped her?

Comparing being talked about to being raped.

[Kathandira]

What was this person standing up against?

Didn't call anyone a baby btw, adults also cry and are cowards.(bit of a coward my self, most Norwegians are, we live such sheltered lives)

I tried my best to make sure I didn't claim you called anyone a cry baby, but I guess I failed at that. lol So sorry if that is how it read, that wasn't the intention.

The video I was eluding to was a video where a man was standing out in public (busy area as many were walking by) trying to soap box racism. Another man stood right up to his face, and every time the racist spoke, the man would just yell no in his face.

Now is this the most peaceful way to do it? Not at all. But the person I was discussing it will was calling him a liberal cry baby. Which I didn't see any crying or whining or anything to the effect. I saw someone standing up and shutting down public hatred.

[Revi]

I wouldn't blame them for that, I blame the ignorant fans who can't tell the difference from a fantasy persona, and reality.

It's odd to me that viewing people in the only way you can, as they present themselves, is ignorant.

Gullible, maybe.