Higher WoW Token prices don't indicate that players are leaving

[Joeydivision82]

I want to clarify, that P2W is subjective. P2W argument is usually being dodged via "this content is irrelevant anyway" argument. But it's wrong. You're nobody here to judge, what content is relevant and what isn't. Different players have different motivations to play the game. And in any case, when their motivation to play the game is ruined by trivializing this aspect of the game via spending $$$ - then it's P2W from their point of view. Character boosts - aren't P2W. Some players, like me, invested large amount of effort into having advantage of being able to play any class, we want. It was our goal. We invested weeks and months into it. It was our accomplishment. And now some noname player can simply pay Nx$60 and instantly have exactly the same "achievement", as me. Just because somebody all of a sudden decided, that leveling - is irrelevant content. Yeah, at some point developer decides, that he will get much more profit from players, who are ready to pay to things directly, than from players, who pays for this content via sub fee. But... This is exact definition of P2W. And it usually leads to collapse of game. Cuz if game developer starts wanting instant profits instead of long term ones - then he thinks, that his game won't last long.

The idea of P2W is not subjective actually, it's simply paying to have an advantage over those who do not pay in a competitive manner. Sure people can pay for boosts to 100, but that doesn't mean they'll automatically hit 110 and be able to jump into a Mythic Raid because they paid their money.

I think you have a hard time understanding what pay to win means.

[Deleted]

More subs also means more demand so your logic isn't exactly correct. Its the type of subs that matters, usually the early flux of casual players (and also the more hardcore) are more ok with spending money for gold.

It is correct though. Every single time when we get influx of players the token price drops. Doesn't matter what kind of players it is. The logic is still there.

[WowIsDead64]

The idea of P2W is not subjective actually, it's simply paying to have an advantage over those who do not pay in a competitive manner. Sure people can pay for boosts to 100, but that doesn't mean they'll automatically hit 110 and be able to jump into a Mythic Raid because they paid their money.

I think you have a hard time understanding what pay to win means.

"Win" is different for different players. For example I don't care about Mythic raids. And I wouldn't care, if Blizzard would sell Mythic gear for $$$. Also majority of players don't care about Mythic raids. So nothing would really happen, if Blizzard would start doing it. But why players, who do Mythics and don't care about, let's say, leveling, think, that what they do - is much more important, than what I do? Why do they think, that if something is irrelevant to them, then it can easily be sold for $$$? This is what is called being selfish. So, that's why P2W is very subjective. In most cases non-P2W = content, unrelated to game. For example shooter - is about shooting other players. It isn't about customization or about collecting "heroes". That's why buying customization items and "heroes", instead of grinding ingame currency to by this stuff - isn't P2W in such a game. But leveling - is core part of any RPG game. Allowing players to skip is via paying $$$ - is pure P2W.

[WintersLegion]

The gold sink in previous expansions was what you mentioned at the top of your post tbh. In the past you had to enchant bracers/legs/helms/shoulders/cloak/boots/weapons, now it's rings/neck/cloak and shoulders, even though that's only needed if you want more mats. You had to reforge pieces that didn't have optimal stat rolls or if you needed more hit/exp, something that's gone now. Lastly, you needed to gem your gear, something that you only have to do if you get a WF/TF on the item.

I agree with Blizz that sometimes it became a bit much, you get a belt, you have to reforge, buy a belt buckle and a gem. But they went too far in the other direction, I'm just sitting on a pile of gold with nothing to spend it on. Even my druid alt who never had more than 30k in the past has close to 200k now. My rogue is closing in on the half mil point even though I don't even bother selling gems etc since a) they make little money and b) I don't even need the money to begin with. The fact that so many people run around with the transmog mount shows that a lot of people are in a similar situation. Tons of gold with nothing to spend it on other than the occasional cosmetic item.

Enchants and gems were not gold sinks. A gold sink is something that takes gold out of the game like repair bills. Enchants and Gems just redistribute gold between players.

[Orangetai420]

Blizzard, being unable to introduce reliable gold sink - is the reason. They are balancing between selling as much gold, as possible, and P2W. Simply because if they would introduce something, that majority of players would want to buy, such as gear for example - it would be P2W. And demand of optional things - isn't reliable enough.

Blizzard doesnt sell gold.

[rda]

Either way, I'm not saying the developers and the changes and additions they make have no responsibility or influence on this, of course they have. But you are literally only defending that position because that's what matches what your personal opinion and taste, not because it's what makes most sense analytically. The "quality" of the expansion and its changes and features do have influence on WoW's life cycle. But they're far from being the only factors, there are far bigger things involved.

Like what?

I skipped the rest of the post which is almost entirely nonsense like "they just expand WoW, so they don't have the potential to bring back everyone who has once played WoW" (why is that necessary to bring back "everyone who has once played WoW? only a small part would suffice. why can't expansions do that? because they "just expand"? that's called absence of reasoning). No jokes, you have nonsense in nearly every paragraph.

So just answer the question above - what are the factors bigger than what the devs do? Please explain why they are bigger.

- - - Updated - - -

2) Civilization (and the huge majority of other videogames series and titles) are a failure, because they all lose players and interest soon after launch.

I will resolve your conundrum.

Games end for two reasons. Either sequels were not planned - that's a peaceful end. Or sequels in series stop innovating enough. You can say that they start being bad. Yes, most game series end like that, people are too afraid to innovate, they are more content with starting a new series and let old one die but keep it alive as long as possible. They are doing it on purpose, to avoid risk. That's still stopping to innovate, those who aren't afraid to do so frequently keep the series alive seemingly infinitely. See Civilization again (don't know why you are calling it a failure, it does not lose players from one title to another - WoW does and that's different).

[Mad_Murdock]

But leveling - is core part of any RPG game. Allowing players to skip is via paying $$$ - is pure P2W.

The only way character boost can be Pay to win, is if there is some kind of measureable race going on. There is no race, no one is watching you and me level a toon. No one tracks a toon being leveled. The closest you have is the Wowchallenges (aka Ironman) which does track leveling if you sign up for it and it forbids and tracks character boost. You cheat, you lose

Just because a person says "leveling is the single most important part of the game" doesn't make it true and doesn't mean there is any kind of competition. How is there a "win"? What is being won? Where is the tangible advantage? On the flip side, Raid progression is something the community follows, That is something the community does attach a "win" to. You don't have to care about it, but a healthy chunk of the community cares. Buying Mythic gear does allow me to get an advantage over other players and can help a guild clear content faster and thus get a higher ranking in the community. In the past, that better gear also played a role in how I performed in the PvP circuit and that again, is something the community cares about and follows, far far more than leveling

Personally, Pay 2 Win is just the intellectually lazy argument people like to throw out because they want to be mad at Blizzard about something. Call of Duty had\has a Pay to Win issue with their latest release and the supply drops. Until WoW gets to that level (Artifact power per $1.99 spent) WoW is still a ways away from offering any Pay to Win feature

[Joeydivision82]

"Win" is different for different players. For example I don't care about Mythic raids. And I wouldn't care, if Blizzard would sell Mythic gear for $$$. Also majority of players don't care about Mythic raids. So nothing would really happen, if Blizzard would start doing it. But why players, who do Mythics and don't care about, let's say, leveling, think, that what they do - is much more important, than what I do? Why do they think, that if something is irrelevant to them, then it can easily be sold for $$$? This is what is called being selfish. So, that's why P2W is very subjective. In most cases non-P2W = content, unrelated to game. For example shooter - is about shooting other players. It isn't about customization or about collecting "heroes". That's why buying customization items and "heroes", instead of grinding ingame currency to by this stuff - isn't P2W in such a game. But leveling - is core part of any RPG game. Allowing players to skip is via paying $$$ - is pure P2W.

Because the majority of the game is based around the end game content and the leveling experience is just a gate on the way to that content. Like I said, leveling to 100 or buying to 109 isn't giving anyone any special advantage over another player, therefore, not P2W.

[Kolvarg]

No jokes, you have nonsense in nearly every paragraph.

Prove it. Adress such "nonsense", and explain why it is nonsense.

All I see is you avoiding most of my points because you don't like them but don't really have a way to argue agaisnt them ^^

See Civilization again (don't know why you are calling it a failure, it does not lose players from one title to another - WoW does and that's different).

You are missing the point.

You were initially defending this:

It's not the nature of things that people leave this fast and this much. It happened in WoD because it was crap, had big problems. It happens in Legion because it seems to have big problems as well. It didn't happen in WotLK or in MoP or even in Cata. Two of these three expansions had only a very light decline and the remaining one (either Cata or MoP, don't remember) had the decline that's at most half of the slope of the one in WoD / Legion, it was way, way, way milder.

You make the following claims, in this quote:

1) It's not normal for people to leave as they have in WoD/Legion
2) It happened because WoD/Legion are bad
3) It didn't happen in WotLK, MoP and Cata, because those are better than WoD/Legion

You then proceeded to pretty much agree with me:

WoW and its expansions behave exactly like Civilization and its new versions from the point of view of product cycles

And I proceeded to present you 2 simple logical consequences of your assertions. Since WoW and its expansions behave exactly like Civilization and it's new versions, either it IS indeed normal for people to leave/stop playing after a while, OR it isn't normal and Civilization titles are as much of a failure, just like WoD and Legion, as well as pretty much every other game since they all have this pattern.

I also provided evidence in the previous post that supports that WotLK, MoP and Cata didn't do any better individually than WoD or Legion. I'd like you to adress that, if possible

Like what? - what are the factors bigger than what the devs do? Please explain why they are bigger.

A lot of what I've been already talking about, but I'll name a few of them. Marketing, direct competition (other mmorpgs), indirect competition (other games and hobbies), popularity of the genre, popularity of the franchise, public opinion, state of the industry, luck, age of the game/franchise/series, target audience size, target audience age, payment model, additional monetization, news coverage.

All these things can take huge effect on the success of games in general, but especially when it comes to how the life cicle of a WoW expansion takes effect on the general WoW life cicle.

They are bigger because what WoW is, is already defined, and it's not changing. After that is established, they can only shift their target audience so much. For instance, they can make the game more accessible to appeal to a gaming crowd that doesn't want to invest too much time into a single game. They can't really, however, do that much to try to bring in players who'd rather just play an online FPS or MOBA, or any other genre that became more popular than MMORPG. A shift in genre popularity or simple viral popularity (think Flappy Bird) is mostly outside the control of the developers, but takes huge effect on the success of the game, for instance.


The only reason WoD (and very possibly now also Legion) lost so many players is because it also attracted an unprecdented number of subs in the first place (6.8M went to 10M). Box sales were better than WotLK, Cata or MoP, irrc, and same goes for Legion. So the issue seems pretty clear to be mostly an increased number of non-resident players (people who re-sub to check the new expansion and unsub after they check the content that interests them) and a decreased retention rate - possibly simply because of that number of resident players, possible other additional reasons.

[MrHappy]

I see this a lot, and it's just not true. WoW Token prices are going up because of the gold inflation that happened in Legion. It wouldn't make sense if the WoW Token prices simply stayed the same, no one would buy them.

I'm sure someone with a better understanding of economics would explain this better than me, but I believe this is what's happening.

token price is directly related to its demand. i.e the higher the demand for tokens the higher the price will be.

Now that being said there are 4 possibilities of what is happening

1) Population is rising and buying tokens driving up demand and price
2) Population is relatively stable and people are buying multiple tokens/hoarding tokens/buying a year(s) worth of them an thus driving up demand and price
3) Population is decreasing and people are buying multiple tokens/hoarding tokens/buying a year(s) worth of them an thus driving up demand and price
4) Population is decreasing and people are blizzard is going opposite of their claims that demand is proportional to price increase and making gold buying more lucrative to compensate for the sub drops

#4 is highly unlikely that blizzard would secretly apply a different policy from what was stated openly. #3 is also very unlikely because more people have to buy tokens than subs droping to accomplish this effect. So unless everyone is just have tokens galore...it's improbable
#2 is what is most likely scenario that wow population is stable or minor growth and more people over time buying tokens driving up pricing
#1 is also a good posibility. New subs would have to level and earn gold before buying tokens but is much more realistic scenario than 3 or 4.

Bottom line the Subs are either stable or on the rise which in either case has more people over time buying tokens driving up demand and price.

[RuneDK]

It's just gold inflation, Blizz added a bunch of Gold sinks in Legion. I figure by end of Legion Gold will be better balanced than the end of WoD.

Probably not, the only true notable sink is the spider mount...I wouldn't even buy that unless I had 10m gold. I supply my own raid consumables with bloods, and make gold off enchanting...so basically...my gold is going up with nothing but repair bills bringing it down.

[TS26]

doing what? no, i do not tocuh the AH and i dont even have proffessions. I just leveled a toon i think, some dungeons with other. mmm not doing emmisarys since october IIRC.

What? you literally said after a couple of weeks you will have 50k again. If your way of getting 50k is leveling an entire toon then sorry that' dumb but even still the regular player does not do that.

You literally said you did nothing for the gold and then you said you leveled an entire toon..wtf?

[adamaj]

I see this a lot, and it's just not true. WoW Token prices are going up because of the gold inflation that happened in Legion. It wouldn't make sense if the WoW Token prices simply stayed the same, no one would buy them.

I'm sure someone with a better understanding of economics would explain this better than me, but I believe this is what's happening.

I don't know exactly how it all works, either, but I'm enjoying the higher prices as I sell tokens.

[schwarzkopf]

People are leaving WoW because legion is shit.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, yet you provide none.

Noone wants to play a game where you have as big chance of progressing as winning a jackpot.

Well, seems everyone is winning the jackpot except you ... that's very unlucky for you

- - - Updated - - -

I don't understand why is it so hard to admit that (part of) the huge increase in token price is the population diminishing.

If the increase in token price of mid November is due to population diminishing - then according to your logic it was a one of loss of customers.

It has remained pretty steady at around 60k in the US for almost 2 months.

I just think that as with every expansion, a stack of people turned up got to max level and left .... nothing special to see.

[araine]

It wasn't as big of an issue as blizzard made it seem to be, if you get one or two upgrades per week what's the problem of putting in some effort on them?

The upgrades should be upgrades before going to askmrrobot and run that addon to see how you need to reforge 14 items for proper min max really common sense

[shonist]

What? you literally said after a couple of weeks you will have 50k again. If your way of getting 50k is leveling an entire toon then sorry that' dumb but even still the regular player does not do that.

You literally said you did nothing for the gold and then you said you leveled an entire toon..wtf?

thats not doing anything for the gold. i mean, i just "Play" leveling alts is playing o.O. what im saying man, no way to get the 50k i got in wod or before just doing what im doing.

[Schizoide]

The current spike doesn't have much to do with population. Token prices are rising from speculation, as people believe they'll be able to use them for other Blizzard products and services in the future. So you could exchange a token for a faction change, or to buy Heathstone cards, or whatever.

[Fabinas]

Although english is not my first language, my reading comprehension is fine thank you.
As someone mentioned it was a case of poor phrasing, but anyway i will reply with something in my language to check your language comprehesion, oh great wise man.

Si eres mas tonto no naces cabronazo metomentodo, sabiondo de los cojones.

Won't even bother to google translate that. Learn English, then come to post here. Also, don't panic if you can't play wow with tokens, kiddo.

[Kallisto]

Here is a surprise for you, WoW and its expansions behave exactly like Civilization and its new versions from the point of view of product cycles. That new versions of WoW are called "expansions" does not matter.

Not really. WoW expansions behave more like Brave new world or Gods and Kings for Civ V. Or Warlords and Beyond the Sword (Maybe Colonization) for Civ 4.

[WowIsDead64]

The only way character boost can be Pay to win, is if there is some kind of measureable race going on. There is no race, no one is watching you and me level a toon. No one tracks a toon being leveled. The closest you have is the Wowchallenges (aka Ironman) which does track leveling if you sign up for it and it forbids and tracks character boost. You cheat, you lose

Just because a person says "leveling is the single most important part of the game" doesn't make it true and doesn't mean there is any kind of competition. How is there a "win"? What is being won? Where is the tangible advantage? On the flip side, Raid progression is something the community follows, That is something the community does attach a "win" to. You don't have to care about it, but a healthy chunk of the community cares. Buying Mythic gear does allow me to get an advantage over other players and can help a guild clear content faster and thus get a higher ranking in the community. In the past, that better gear also played a role in how I performed in the PvP circuit and that again, is something the community cares about and follows, far far more than leveling

Personally, Pay 2 Win is just the intellectually lazy argument people like to throw out because they want to be mad at Blizzard about something. Call of Duty had\has a Pay to Win issue with their latest release and the supply drops. Until WoW gets to that level (Artifact power per $1.99 spent) WoW is still a ways away from offering any Pay to Win feature

Again, you're observing situation from competitive point of view - you think, that if there is no competition, then there is nothing to win. Do you understand, that competition - isn't necessary part of the game? That only around 25% players - are players, who need competition? Other players have another motivations. You can "win" the game via many different ways. And this motivations are being destroyed by P2W. For example: some player compete for world first boss kills and says, that there is nothing to compete in raiding beyond world/server firsts. So what another motivation can be destroyed by P2W in this case? Motivation to collect full set of gear for example. There is no competition in collecting gear. But it's still motivation to play the game. If somebody would be able to simply buy this gear for $$$ - this motivation would be ruined. Game isn't shop - it's meant to be played.

P.S. Also THERE IS advantage - ability to play any class, you want, at any moment, ability to have Nx<amount of content>, you like, ability to have all professions, ability to have Nx<chances to get item X per week>, etc. And before introduction of character boosts this advantages were EARNED, not bought for $$$.