Holy Paladin Help Requested (With Logs)

[Broccoliz]

Thank you in advance for any advice you can offer.

We are a 7/7M guild with Odyn at 15% (5% away) and are really trying to push everyone to focus on individual improvement and always being better than you were last week. I am really wanting our lower/middle performers to get feedback and try some new things to push their gameplay.

Cutetea is our holy Paladin and could use some detailed log review. Here is our logs from last night, Mythic EN clear and some pulls on M Odyn.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...8&type=healing

Fights to focus on would be Odyn of course, and Il'gy/Xavius were low as well. I am looking for any tips, "rotational" especially, as well as talent choices and/or gear they should try to farm.

Again I really appreciate any advice. I will be linking them this thread so they can read your comments directly.

[Krigaren]

Their highest healing spell is Light of Dawn with Beacon next. I'm not sure of any situation where LoD should ever be the highest healing spell considering the cooldown and lack of individual healing it does.

My one critique is that it doesn't appear as though they're utilizing their direct heals nearly often enough. Flash of Light/Holy Light should be higher in the rankings, as should Holy Shock.

Holy Shock, fish for crits, and cast a hastened Holy Light/buffed Flash of Light. That's the primary bread and butter for a holy paladin.

I would also suggest swapping out Judgment of Light for Sanctified Wrath. Judgment of Light is a pretty good chunk of their healing, but I don't see the passive healing being enough to make any appreciable amount of difference in Mythic raiding. Having a buffed Wrath with a faster cooldown on Holy Shock is pretty OP for burst situations.

Also, it appears as though top tier HPals are going with Aura of Sacrifice, which really pads the meters. I've never used it myself, so I can't say, but it's pretty dominant.

[Taeldorian]

Why is LoD his most used ability? It's even over Beacon as the poster above me pointed out. That's already an issue and definitely something that needs work.

Holy shock and FoL should be above it. A majority of his holy shocks should crit if he's geared properly and that's a huge heal but it also buffs our FoL/speeds up our HL when it crits so that's also extremely good. There should definitely be more of that going on.

Top 3 are usually Beacon, HS and FoL. Obviously it'll vary per fight, but I don't see LoD being used like that on odyn. Beacon should easily be #1 with the tanks taking heavy damage throughout P3. Flash of light should be way ahead of Lod due to the damage in P3 as well.

Not good at sifting through logs though so I'd recommend really getting someone like Dreamguard who knows what he's doing. That, or ask Sparty Smallwood in his stream when he's streaming he always helps people with logs.

[Deleted]

Ok I have had a look at the talents.... there's something not quite right...

Aura of Mercy is good for most fights, some fights need to be changed to Devo Aura (ie useful on Ursoc). I haven't tried Aura of Sacrifice yet but might give it a try to see.
Ditch the Holy Prism, and have Holy Avenger and use on cd.
Get rid of Judgement of Light and replace with Sanctified Wrath. Those changes in themselves will make a difference.

The Odyn fight is a pain in the ass, your healer should be focusing purely on tank healing in that fight.

Hope that helps

[Tts]

I looked at the armory of your hpal and it seems like they are using beacon of the light bringer. Beacon of faith is almost always the best option since you get to beacon both your tanks. As for talents, I'm not sure why other people are saying Judgement of the Light is worse than Sanctified Wrath. I only use Sanctified Wrath on the Ilgynoth fight. I use Devotion aura for ToV and still do relatively well with my parses but my EN parses are all very high. Your paladin isn't using holy shock and flash of light enough. I almost never use holy light. LotD should never be top healing really. Use aura of sacrafice for Ilgynoth aswell. I never use Holy Prism because Holy Avenger is a pretty good cooldown.

UNFORUNATELY I CAN'T PUT LOGS BC I JUST MADE THIS ACCOUNT BUT YOU CAN CHECK TTS on KIL'JAEDEN These are my logs by my ilvl group, you can change for all ilvls and see that I still have 5 95+ parses. Maybe you can compare and copy some of what I'm doing. I also don't really have great legendaries so it could be more helpful with my logs compared to someone with shoulders or ring. And I only use aura of sac on one fight.

As for playstyle, maybe your hpal isn't playing correctly. They need to holy shock on CD and use flash of light with their procs, aim LotD correctly, and use the double beacon talent. To keep my mana pool high, I tend to flash of light my main beacon target since it returns mana. I usually judgement on CD for the damage mitigation and the judgement of the light raid healing.

As for ToV, Judgement of Light is the way to go. I constantly switch my judgements between Odyn, HYmdal, and Hyrja. Light of the Dawn when the Horns, Uneering Blasts, and light beams come out, or the pillars are out on p2 and on cd p3.

Overall, it looks like your pally isn't really doing any healing at all and is being carried tbh. They need to use holy shock and flash of light A LOT more. Try seeing the mana pool at the end of the fight and see where they're at. I generally am pretty good at watching my own mana and can go almost oom as the fight ends.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions, i'm Tts ON kiljaeden. feel free to ask

[Waltzinblack]

Some of you guys are quite clueless. For the most part, changing talents is not going to make this paladin a better healer. Beacon of the Lightbringer is perfectly fine for raiding too, if you can switch your beacon to the tank taking damage. JoL is better than Sanctified Wrath since SW got nerfed. With Beacon of the Lightbringer picked, it's not unusual to see Light of Dawn close to the top of HPS, especially in a long fight where healers are conserving mana.

Even with the talent changes, your paladin will need to look up how to play holy paladin properly as a few tips from MMO-Champ readers based on logs is not going to be enough help.

[Broccoliz]

Even with the talent changes, your paladin will need to look up how to play holy paladin properly as a few tips from MMO-Champ readers based on logs is not going to be enough help.

Thank you for the honest feedback. This is the struggle - they have played holy pally with us since
WoD and never struggled before. They know how to play Paladin correctly, but apparently aren't, and I/they need help identifying what they are missing. Can you guide us towards a few specifics? More flash of light (AKA more single target spam), etc? I need help identifying as I don't play holy pally and I would very much like to see these numbers go up. (Beyond the talent discussion which as you said will not fix the problem).

Thank you again for any specifics, and for taking the time to help others.

[Waltzinblack]

Thank you for the honest feedback. This is the struggle - they have played holy pally with us since
WoD and never struggled before. They know how to play Paladin correctly, but apparently aren't, and I/they need help identifying what they are missing. Can you guide us towards a few specifics? More flash of light (AKA more single target spam), etc? I need help identifying as I don't play holy pally and I would very much like to see these numbers go up. (Beyond the talent discussion which as you said will not fix the problem).

Thank you again for any specifics, and for taking the time to help others.

Check this site out for some quick logs tips, http://www.checkmywow.com/reports/Hq...5/28?tab=casts. Looking at this, they're wasting a lot of their abilities by simply not using them enough, and leaving them off cooldown for significant periods of time. They should be using Holy Shock as soon as it comes off cooldown, and same with LoD, Holy Prism (although they should switch to Holy Avenger, and use Tyr's Deliverance with Holy Avenger up to maximise it during the 30% haste period) These wasted spells are probably most of the issue.

Another few points is that their neck is not enchanted, and the Vial of Nightmare Fog is quite a terrible trinket and should be swapped for a better one. There's a spreadsheet from Sacred Shielding that can help with comparing trinkets and upgrades, and would be useful for them to save a copy just for referencing in the future. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...QinFXagTo/edit

[Deleted]

The logs being "bad" is partially because your low overall dps drags the fight out forever.

Beyond that I'd work on replacing all the Crit+Haste gear with Crit+Mastery/Versatility. There is so much Haste that it appears intentional.
Then work on positioning and utilizing Rule of Law a lot more. That will bring the FoL averages more in line with where they should be.
Judgment, Bestow Faith and Tyr's Deliverance need to be pressed more and if they want to run Holy Prism that should probably be pressed more often too.
Also, Bestow isn't meant as a personal healing cooldown lol.

[Iyob]

Your paladin is doing fine, Mythic Odyn isn't a 5 heal fight anymore, so of course there's going to be a ton of sniping going around with 5 healers.

The only thing I see a problem with is their cd usage, just looking at Wipe 5. 32/61 Holy Shocks, 35/45 LoD, 18/27 Holy Prism, and Judgment could use a little work as well.

The first few comments are quite wrong, Cutetea is taking Beacon of the Lightbringer, which increases Light of Dawn healing by 30%, which should be top heals if using it correctly/on cd. Judgment of Light is a very good talent to take as well, Sanctified Wrath got nerfed in 7.1, so we've defaulted into taking JoL, and only SW when there's another Holy Pally with ring. Beacon usually with that talent is my 4th heal, because you're supposed to be putting it on the tank taking least damage, or with better survivability/healing. Which is correct to be putting it on the Warrio. Also with beacons, you shouldn't direct heal them much, you make them work for you, the mana back is not necessary.

Mercy Aura is fine, and so is Holy Prism. Most of our talents right now are just preference, we have different builds we can run. Beacons, and HP/HA all depend on player. I usually find HA to do a lot of overhealing, so HP is safer, and does a lot of healing for its mana cost.

This weeks logs for me - /reports/7K3DadQ6qx9zyhYH#fight=1&type=healing&source=11

I played bad, and died at end, my Beacon shouldn't of been top, but all the heals are pretty close. LoD, if I didn't play dumb, would've been my top heal.

If you guys need anymore help, come join the Paladin Discord, always people there to help with logs. discord.gg /JmsHAY4

[Darklordxnew]

Why is LoD his most used ability? It's even over Beacon as the poster above me pointed out. That's already an issue and definitely something that needs work.

Um.

Mana efficiency breakdown:

30k sp base, 0% crit, artifact at 0:

FoL:
39600 mana
no IoL heals for 135000 for 3.409090909090909 hp healed per mana
W/ IoL heals for 202500 for 5.113636363636364 hp healed per mana

HL:
26400 mana
Heals for 127500 for 4.829545454545455 hp healed per mana

holy shock:
22000 mana
heals for 120000 for 5.454545454545455 hp healed per mana

LoD (if Lightbringer Beacon, add 30%):
30800 mana
heals for 54000 for 1.753246753246753 hp healed per mana / person hit
heals for 270000 for 8.766233766233766 hp healed per mana if 5 people hit

LotM:
16500 mana
heals for 150000 for 9.090909090909091 hp healed per mana ON THE TARGET, but damages the casting paladin for half of what it healed, halving it's hp healed per mana to 4.545454545454546



30k sp base, 40% crit, artifact at 35:

FoL:
39600 mana
no IoL heals for 217350 for 5.488636363636364 hp healed per mana
W/ IoL heals for 326025 for 8.232954545454545 hp healed per mana

HL:
26400 mana
Heals for 146625 for 5.553977272727273 hp healed per mana

holy shock (gets double crit, and crits hit 24% harder):
22000 mana
heals for 250992 for 11.40872727272727 hp healed per mana

LoD (15% chance to double cast, and if Lightbringer Beacon, add 30%):
30800 mana
heals for 91800 for 2.980519480519481 hp healed per mana / person hit
heals for 459000 for 14.9025974025974 hp healed per mana if 5 people hit

LotM:
16500 mana
heals for 240000 for 14.54545454545455 hp healed per mana ON THE TARGET, but damages the casting paladin for half of what it healed, halving it's hp healed per mana to 7.272727272727273


So with a 35 point artifact (which is pretty easy now with AK being so high), Light of Dawn, WITHOUT beacon of the lightbringer, if it hits even THREE targets is even more efficient per mana than holy shock. Light of Dawn is awesome. Please feel free to correct yourself

[Krigaren]

Some of you guys are quite clueless. For the most part, changing talents is not going to make this paladin a better healer. Beacon of the Lightbringer is perfectly fine for raiding too, if you can switch your beacon to the tank taking damage. JoL is better than Sanctified Wrath since SW got nerfed. With Beacon of the Lightbringer picked, it's not unusual to see Light of Dawn close to the top of HPS, especially in a long fight where healers are conserving mana.

Well, clearly you're the expert? You can have your opinion, but you don't have to be a complete jackass about it. More or less every talent is useful for different situations and different play-styles, and while talents by themselves won't always make a better healer, certain talents work better combined with different approaches.

Judgement of Light is a useful talent, yes. However it's primary bread and butter is to pad the meters with passive healing, but it's only great for single-target fights where there's little movement, and lot of overall damage. Ursoc, or Guarm for example are pretty perfect for it. But it's individual healing at 20% SP for Cutetea is only around 8k per second, assuming the person being healed is keeping a 100% attacking up-time on the target. It's a large chunk of healing during a 10 minute long fight, but it doesn't do anything during, say, Odyn, or Ilg, or Cenarius, or Helya when people are constantly changing targets or moving during the entire fight.

However, Sanctified Wrath - even with with the nerf from +10 seconds to +5 seconds additional up-time - is still better for emergency situations, and it's controllable. When Avenging Wrath is popped, you want to get your heals out as fast as possible, right? Considering AW's synergy with Holy Shock, which then synergies with Holy Light, it's a win-win. The whole idea is to promote additional use of Holy Shock and Holy Light / Flash of Light, and Sanctified Wrath does that in spades. Though your assertion that JoL is better because SW was nerfed is asinine, it's still just as good as it's always been, it just doesn't last as long.

I also use Beacon of Lightbringer in raiding, and I'm judicious in my use of LoD, yet I've never, ever seen it near the top of my meters. While it's true that the OP referenced paladin may be trying to conserve mana, for LoD to be at the top and HL and FoL so low, it means their healing up-time is low, and there's very little spot healing going on. Especially in Mythic raiding, there's always someone to heal at all times, even if you're just casting slow-ass Holy Light in between Shock cooldowns.

[Iyob]

With BotLB your LoD should always be top healing though, and beacon towards the bottom. There's multiple logs showing this off, and if we want to look at the spreadsheet too, it's there as well.

If you're counting JoL as padding then you must think Mercy is padding as well. Do you run Devo on all fights? Because majority of people really don't.

/reports/cWkAzvM6DhZaBKQC#type=healing&source=4

Are my logs before Odyn nerf, last week, I was testing BoF v BotLB, and this week I died early, but this weeks - /reports/7K3DadQ6qx9zyhYH#fight=1&type=healing&source=11 If I had lived, HS/LoD would've been my top heal by a bit more.

We only take SW if there's another Holy Pally in the raid with either higher int, or JoL Ring.

[Waltzinblack]

Well, clearly you're the expert? You can have your opinion, but you don't have to be a complete jackass about it. More or less every talent is useful for different situations and different play-styles, and while talents by themselves won't always make a better healer, certain talents work better combined with different approaches.

Judgement of Light is a useful talent, yes. However it's primary bread and butter is to pad the meters with passive healing, but it's only great for single-target fights where there's little movement, and lot of overall damage. Ursoc, or Guarm for example are pretty perfect for it. But it's individual healing at 20% SP for Cutetea is only around 8k per second, assuming the person being healed is keeping a 100% attacking up-time on the target. It's a large chunk of healing during a 10 minute long fight, but it doesn't do anything during, say, Odyn, or Ilg, or Cenarius, or Helya when people are constantly changing targets or moving during the entire fight.

However, Sanctified Wrath - even with with the nerf from +10 seconds to +5 seconds additional up-time - is still better for emergency situations, and it's controllable. When Avenging Wrath is popped, you want to get your heals out as fast as possible, right? Considering AW's synergy with Holy Shock, which then synergies with Holy Light, it's a win-win. The whole idea is to promote additional use of Holy Shock and Holy Light / Flash of Light, and Sanctified Wrath does that in spades. Though your assertion that JoL is better because SW was nerfed is asinine, it's still just as good as it's always been, it just doesn't last as long.

I also use Beacon of Lightbringer in raiding, and I'm judicious in my use of LoD, yet I've never, ever seen it near the top of my meters. While it's true that the OP referenced paladin may be trying to conserve mana, for LoD to be at the top and HL and FoL so low, it means their healing up-time is low, and there's very little spot healing going on. Especially in Mythic raiding, there's always someone to heal at all times, even if you're just casting slow-ass Holy Light in between Shock cooldowns.

You certainly have lots of ideas for mythic raiding for someone who hasn't actually stepped into a mythic raid yet.

[Krigaren]

You certainly have lots of ideas for mythic raiding for someone who hasn't actually stepped into a mythic raid yet.

Oh? Explain to me how I'm wrong, then, Expert. I'd love to see your character sheet, too.

Even better, look at Mythic logs for the top players in the world. Their talents are all over the place - some use JoL, some use SW. Some use DI, some use Prism, some use HA. Even the the top spells for each player are all over the place.

The point is, OP came here looking for advice to help his friend out. We provided. You may disagree, and that's fine, but you're also insulting people by acting as though none of us have a single clue what we're doing, when even the top players don't all agree on a specific spec or heal style.

In one breath you say that the OP's friend needs to learn how to play, while also saying that the way they're playing is just fine because it's not unusual to see LoD at the top of the meters. You also make a point that talents don't make the player, while saying their talent choices are wrong. You're also suggesting that we no idea what we're talking about, while you back up my and other's main points that OP's friend should be using Shock more (and by extension HL and FoL more), and you back up my point that they aren't utilizing their spells as often or quickly as they should. Make up your mind.

We're here to discuss and help, and offer suggestions based on the logs. You're here to beat your chest and act like you're the god of healing. That's the difference. Eff off.

[Rikkycurtis]

Oh? Explain to me how I'm wrong, then, Expert. I'd love to see your character sheet, too.

Even better, look at Mythic logs for the top players in the world. Their talents are all over the place - some use JoL, some use SW. Some use DI, some use Prism, some use HA. Even the the top spells for each player are all over the place.

The point is, OP came here looking for advice to help his friend out. We provided. You may disagree, and that's fine, but you're also insulting people by acting as though none of us have a single clue what we're doing, when even the top players don't all agree on a specific spec or heal style.

In one breath you say that the OP's friend needs to learn how to play, while also saying that the way they're playing is just fine because your meters look similar. You also make a point that talents don't make the player, while insulting people's talent choices. Make up your mind.

We're here to discuss and help, and offer suggestions based on the logs. You're here to beat your chest and act like you're the god of healing. That's the difference. Eff off.

All talents are good right? i guess time to use Fervent Martyr

[Krigaren]

All talents are good right? i guess time to use Fervent Martyr

Yup, that's totally what I said. Go ahead and test it out and let us know how it works for you.

[Rikkycurtis]

Yup, that's totally what I said. Go ahead and test it out and let us know how it works for you.

What's next? Use the tier 1 hammer talent? BTW, you do know that Botlb is supposed to cause your LoD to do a huge chunk of healing? If anything, he is playing his LoD correctly.

[Waltzinblack]

Oh? Explain to me how I'm wrong, then, Expert. I'd love to see your character sheet, too.

Even better, look at Mythic logs for the top players in the world. Their talents are all over the place - some use JoL, some use SW. Some use DI, some use Prism, some use HA. Even the the top spells for each player are all over the place.

The point is, OP came here looking for advice to help his friend out. We provided. You may disagree, and that's fine, but you're also insulting people by acting as though none of us have a single clue what we're doing, when even the top players don't all agree on a specific spec or heal style.

In one breath you say that the OP's friend needs to learn how to play, while also saying that the way they're playing is just fine because it's not unusual to see LoD at the top of the meters. You also make a point that talents don't make the player, while saying their talent choices are wrong. You're also suggesting that we no idea what we're talking about, while you back up my and other's main points that OP's friend should be using Shock more (and by extension HL and FoL more), and you back up my point that they aren't utilizing their spells as often or quickly as they should. Make up your mind.

We're here to discuss and help, and offer suggestions based on the logs. You're here to beat your chest and act like you're the god of healing. That's the difference. Eff off.

Remind me where I said this paladin is bad? Oh right, I didn't, all I said was that changing a few talents won't improve greatly and that tips from MMO-Champ readers are not going to help. I'll also throw a point you made yourself back at you. Top paladin logs are full of people who take the talents that help them pad the most.

My first post was referring to the people giving misinformation, you included, about certain talents, such as SW being god-tier compared to JoL when that's obviously wrong, and acting as if you've fixed their healing now and that your good deed for the day is done. JoL is massively great in all fights, not just single target, because, guess what? You can Judgment other things during the fight, and not just the boss.

And if you are quite desperate to know, http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Nonbon/simple, there's my armory. Go nuts. I regularly log above 95%.

[Nedralixx]

I cannot even understand how on earth you guys question LoD being top healing spell with BotL. 99% of the cases it is Beacon top spell with Faith and LoD top spell with Lightbringer. Now on talents. Phase 1 and 2 of Odyn have semi bursty raid damage going on with Unerring Blast and Horn of Valor. These abilities are quite frequent for anyone to justify going SW. JotL provides decent healing output throughout the fight at virtually no mana cost. Also, HA might not be a good idea for progress as it is a rather large fight and you can easily go oom in phase 3 which hurts a lot. Furthermore, you can pop Holy Prism when the aforementioned abilities go off and heal a decent chunk of the raid's health. Phase 3 is roller-coaster and you need to push large amounts of healing to survive but it all boils down to tanks doing their taunts properly and raid moving correctly with their colours.