MM vs BM PVE in 7.1.5

[Yhcti]

I admit I do miss the old survival.. multishot applying serpent sting and LnL proccing a barrage of explosive shots... that was by far my favourite spec ever in WoW... such a shame they ravaged it I suppose it's sort of there in Survival still, except Serpent Sting sucks balls now and explosive shot is a static dot that is pointless ifthe target moves

[femur68]

I saw a decent argument for why BM's single target would be worth a damn in this video if you obtained the new Legendary shoulders for BM in 7.1.5.

Basically the argument is the BM shoulders will let you bank your DBs to 2 stacks, so you can pop them both at 30-32 seconds left on BW CD, and then go into BW with two DBs up, which gives more potency to the artifact ability and makes the T19 4pc actually worth taking. I'm not sure if this would be BM over MM in terms of ST yet (as balancing has yet to be finished), but mechanics wise there might be potential.

[Yhcti]

What I would like to know is, compared to live, are the "clunky" rumours over MM serious? or is it just a slight hiccup? reason I ask is that BM doesn't feel much stronger than MM for me at the moment, I still destroy Dungeons etc as MM much quicker than as BM... I'm obviously going for the casual route of all traits unlocked asap on all 3 specs, so i'll play whatever works out better. Is there still a strong case for MM being the #1 spec, or is it looking like BM will take over for Raid/M+ for awhile? (I know Rogerbrown already stated BM will win)

[Hatch]

What I would like to know is, compared to live, are the "clunky" rumours over MM serious? or is it just a slight hiccup? reason I ask is that BM doesn't feel much stronger than MM for me at the moment, I still destroy Dungeons etc as MM much quicker than as BM... I'm obviously going for the casual route of all traits unlocked asap on all 3 specs, so i'll play whatever works out better. Is there still a strong case for MM being the #1 spec, or is it looking like BM will take over for Raid/M+ for awhile? (I know Rogerbrown already stated BM will win)

I personally think that alot of the MM population is gona struggle alot with landing those last second AiS, taking movement and latency into account, is gona drop the numbers of alot of ppl, still think MM has a higher potential for dmg thou

And PS, what he said is that due to mechanics in NH BM has an advantage over MM, since it's very movement intensive

[Yhcti]

I personally think that alot of the MM population is gona struggle alot with landing those last second AiS, taking movement and latency into account, is gona drop the numbers of alot of ppl, still think MM has a higher potential for dmg thou

And PS, what he said is that due to mechanics in NH BM has an advantage over MM, since it's very movement intensive

Oh I see, so looks like he'll be switching depending on the fight. That's fair enough. I may, just for the QoL, just remain as BM then. I mean, I'm casual, I won't be stepping into Mythic any time soon, and my highest M+ is 7, so no point for me gearing MM if i'll never truly get the gear for it to kick butt.

[Banard]

I admit I do miss the old survival.. multishot applying serpent sting and LnL proccing a barrage of explosive shots... that was by far my favourite spec ever in WoW... such a shame they ravaged it I suppose it's sort of there in Survival still, except Serpent Sting sucks balls now and explosive shot is a static dot that is pointless ifthe target moves

I miss it too. I always loved that spec and times in wow when it was the top dps to play. SOO was such a enjoyable raid for me because of it.

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I saw a decent argument for why BM's single target would be worth a damn in this video if you obtained the new Legendary shoulders for BM in 7.1.5.

Basically the argument is the BM shoulders will let you bank your DBs to 2 stacks, so you can pop them both at 30-32 seconds left on BW CD, and then go into BW with two DBs up, which gives more potency to the artifact ability and makes the T19 4pc actually worth taking. I'm not sure if this would be BM over MM in terms of ST yet (as balancing has yet to be finished), but mechanics wise there might be potential.

basically the argument is people have been saying since beta that DB needs 2 stacks to flow better.....and now they add it to a legendary ....

[Megotaku77]

or some player who does understand the "complexity" of pet control and pet movement and which target to attack when to max dps. Where moving that pet by a wee bit doubles or triples your damage.

Lmao, you think pet control is complex. Even the icy-veins guide recommends simply macroing it. It's absolutely pathetic to watch players who play a class with literally 40% wait time try to argue they have anything approaching an interactive mechanic of any kind. You people are trying to draw blood from stone.

Lmao you even think "pet control" doubles or triples your damage. Lmao.

[Arrol]

Pretty much none of this is accurate.

It doesn't matter if he's a theoycrafter or not. He's one of the best hunters in the game for a reason. Instead of crunching numbers and running sims, he played the spec in Nighthold first hand and formed his opinion, which holds more weight than some theorycrafter reading patch notes and doing napkin math. I honestly cant tell if your comment was serious or you're trolling.

It's not that BM is more mobile, it's like MM is LESS mobile in 7.1.5 than it is in 7.1. Combined that to the fact that you need to be hitting aimed shots with .1 seconds left of vulnerable to maximize damage and what do you have? AIDS, pure AIDS. Good luck doing that with heavy movement or MS over 50. That is only the beginning too. Low focus cap, virtually no focus regen, noodle markedshots (granted they might be doing something about this, but regardless we won't have enough focus to take advantage anyway) and a plethora of other shitty changes and you have a potato spec.

MM is moving towards more instant casts and with gloves half of aimed shots castable while moving, I don't see how its possibly less mobile in 7.1.5. You can hit aimed shots within 0.9s left of vuln.

You disliking the gameplay of the spec has no bearing on whether it will be the best spec to play or not. And while roger is a good player, he can't have made an informed and near-correct decision before all the information was final.

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That was the only time I had 13k Mastery. The point was that maintaining 13k Mastery at ilvl 880+ AVG is unheard of. It doesn't generally happen. I'm 882 with 9118 Mastery and that's not a "git gud nub, you're itemizing wrong" that's with Simcrafted stat weights imported into Pawn running BiS checklists on trinkets and legendaries doing the best I can with the drops I get. If I had the kind of gear he has, I'd be parsing top 30 on every fight. Not bragging about how easy it is to score 90th percentile while facerolling with gear that borders on the statistically impossible to attain.

I'm 888 avg and 13k mastery atm http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hinoh/advanced

it's not that unheard of (yes I have good gear aswell, especially trinkets, but these stats are pretty common for the other top 100 hunters)

[Megotaku77]

It doesn't matter if he's a theoycrafter or not. He's one of the best hunters in the game for a reason. Instead of crunching numbers and running sims, he played the spec in Nighthold first hand and formed his opinion, which holds more weight than some theorycrafter reading patch notes and doing napkin math. I honestly cant tell if your comment was serious or you're trolling.

Let me help: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

I'm 888 avg and 13k mastery atm http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...hinoh/advanced

it's not that unheard of (yes I have good gear aswell, especially trinkets, but these stats are pretty common for the other top 100 hunters)

No shit. Of course when you isolate the top 100 hunters in Legion you get the people with the most RNG lucky gear. Unfortunately for your argument Warcraft Logs shows there are a minimum of 13,000 MM Hunters running Mythic content. And those are just the guilds with publicly visible logs. "When you look at the top 0.7%, it turns out they all have great gear!". Did you expect anything different?

[Deleted]

There have been multiple posts/videos/interviews/podcasts etc. by hunters in premiere WoW guilds (i.e. Rodger from Method) who have said that MM is shit in 7.1.5 and that BM will be better in Nighthold on any fight with movement (most fights). This is from their actual PTR progression, not based off of reading patch notes like cry fest that is the wow forums.

Sadly, the sentiment is that BM and MM are both pretty shitty in 7.1.5, but MM is even less mobile than it is now, so fights with movement are even more punishing.

Blizzard hasn't done tuning yet though - Most of the changes revolved around the changes in mechanics.

Expect many balance changes the week after new year. They said marked shot will be going up to the damage that has on live right now (or close to it).

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You'd be hard-pressed to find any class where this wasn't the case. In fact, it's far worse for BM because itemization barely matters compared to MM. Literally the only thing that matters for BM is if you have belt + ring and you're all but guaranteed 95th percentile parses.

Also, please point out where I said MM is extremely complex. There's no comparing them in terms of complexity. MM has to movement mute. BM doesn't. MM has to store procs for add switching. BM doesn't. MM has to position for maximum DPS. BM doesn't. In terms of needing basic raid skills, raid awareness and experience with encounter design, if you really think BM is "just as complex as MM", then you are a bad player. Nothing is worse than when a bad player gets good drops and then brags about how much they "know".

BM has pet down time, which MM doesn't. BM can't do spread cleave at all, which MM can. BM has weak sustained damage, which MM doesn't have.

You can go on about this for a long time. If marked shot gets buffed to live standards, BM won't compete on half the fights.

And looking at Guldan logs, MM is superior on any level to BM simply because they scale better with the power button mechanic than BM does.

[EternalBany]

So, since both are competitive, for casual players that do LFR and Normal, MM has less wait time and more "fun" right?

i find the animation of dire beast cast to be so awkward looking when you are moving.. like you are stopping all damage to yell lol

[S7orm]

i also remember it being fun in ICC but cant remember why...100% armor pen?

Oh, add spawned? Let's switch immediately and global it with chimera and aimed.

Now you're a standing stick pressing 1-2-2-3. It's like playing Malygos P3, forever

[Banard]

Lmao, you think pet control is complex. Even the icy-veins guide recommends simply macroing it. It's absolutely pathetic to watch players who play a class with literally 40% wait time try to argue they have anything approaching an interactive mechanic of any kind. You people are trying to draw blood from stone.

Lmao you even think "pet control" doubles or triples your damage. Lmao.

Azortharion is pretty bias towards the spec and sorry you can't macro pet control. There is nothing in his guide about pet POSITING.

You can macro things like pet attack this and pet attack that...but that is not what i am talking about.

And yes "pet control" can double or triple your damage and if your too moronic to understand pets default position when attacking a target and how that can negatively impact your dps, especially if the target box is huge then that is your issue.

So literally...why you argue about this 40% down time... (which is beyond exaggeration) the proper BM hunter is looking for his pets in a sea of melee (god dam meleecraft) and trying to optimise the pets positioning to max dps. This is huge in mythic+ and on several fights in EN and ToV. <-------- this is by far fucking ridicules to do in raids given mythic mechanics on the fights you need to do it.

[Arrol]

Azortharion is pretty bias towards the spec and sorry you can't macro pet control. There is nothing in his guide about pet POSITING.

You can macro things like pet attack this and pet attack that...but that is not what i am talking about.

And yes "pet control" can double or triple your damage and if your too moronic to understand pets default position when attacking a target and how that can negatively impact your dps, especially if the target box is huge then that is your issue.

So literally...why you argue about this 40% down time... (which is beyond exaggeration) the proper BM hunter is looking for his pets in a sea of melee (god dam meleecraft) and trying to optimise the pets positioning to max dps. This is huge in mythic+ and on several fights in EN and ToV.

Pet positioning management is important, but saying it triples your dps is laughable. There would be a clear dropoff if that was the case where the top BM logs would actually be 3x higher until like 80th percentile or whatever and then instead of 300k, they'd drop drastically to 100k where the gap is "hunters who manage epts vs hunters who dont", Which obviously doesn't happen. I'd say managing pets can add like 10% dps max. If you want to call others moronic, atleast cite numbers based in reality.

[Banard]

Pet positioning management is important, but saying it triples your dps is laughable. There would be a clear dropoff if that was the case where the top BM logs would actually be 3x higher until like 80th percentile or whatever and then instead of 300k, they'd drop drastically to 100k where the gap is "hunters who manage epts vs hunters who dont", Which obviously doesn't happen. I'd say managing pets can add like 10% dps max. If you want to call others moronic, atleast cite numbers based in reality.

fine i might be exaggerating. To put it another way, proper position of the pets (both) can mean the difference of cleaving 1 target (or none) to 5 and 6 depending on how yar tanks are position and the "default" behind the mob your pets are hanging out in.

Its really noticeable in the first phrase of xavius, depending on where that add is tank you could be "thinking" your beast cleaving but there not hitting nothing...after noticing that and paying more attention is became obvious occurs more often ..and a very subtle movement can mean a big difference... a lot bigger then 10%.

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Oh, add spawned? Let's switch immediately and global it with chimera and aimed.

Now you're a standing stick pressing 1-2-2-3. It's like playing Malygos P3, forever

ya this isn't jogging my memory at all.

[Finbezz]

Azortharion is pretty bias towards the spec and sorry you can't macro pet control. There is nothing in his guide about pet POSITING.

You can macro things like pet attack this and pet attack that...but that is not what i am talking about.

And yes "pet control" can double or triple your damage and if your too moronic to understand pets default position when attacking a target and how that can negatively impact your dps, especially if the target box is huge then that is your issue.

So literally...why you argue about this 40% down time... (which is beyond exaggeration) the proper BM hunter is looking for his pets in a sea of melee (god dam meleecraft) and trying to optimise the pets positioning to max dps. This is huge in mythic+ and on several fights in EN and ToV. <-------- this is by far fucking ridicules to do in raids given mythic mechanics on the fights you need to do it.

I literally can't understand half of what you're saying. Calm down and post your thoughts in a manner that a native english speaker could understand you.

[Kirbypro]

I want more fights like mythic Odyn. Even I'm wiping a ton, its really fun to play BM and zip around the map like a crazy person with no loss to DPS. Playing MM on Odyn is worse than reading half the posts on this topic.

[Finbezz]

I want more fights like mythic Odyn. Even I'm wiping a ton, its really fun to play BM and zip around the map like a crazy person with no loss to DPS. Playing MM on Odyn is worse than reading half the posts on this topic.

Gratz on intentionally gimping yourself and your raid cause you want to play a braindead spec, I guess?

[Banard]

Gratz on intentionally gimping yourself and your raid cause you want to play a braindead spec, I guess?

BM is the better spec to play on average for the first two bosses of ToV. MM has higher parses but on average BM does more damage. Also, BM play style is ideal for Odyn with all the movement and dodging. Ideally a hunter would play BM for the first two bosses and MM for Heyla.

Odyn is also a fight that highlights pet position is important to doing good dps.

The only thing you added to the conversation was an attempt to belittle people.

[Kirbypro]

Gratz on intentionally gimping yourself and your raid cause you want to play a braindead spec, I guess?

Just proved my point. Thanks.