Truth about Garrosh?

[Aquamonkey]

The point is the killing of innocents. The Stonetalon town was populated by innocents and so was Theramore. It is a clear contradiction of character.

People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't. (DaveKosak)
It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (DaveKosak)

[Magnagarde]

Dont know from where did you get an idea that Malfurion was Alliance. He wasnt at practically any time since making the new Alliance. They put him near Tyrande in Darnassus, but he was friendly here and just watched you kill Tyrande.

Tyrande is suddenly friendly when she can use you to help her find her 'beloved' but I wouldnt even call it that.

Veressa is friendly where? In Suramar? Like the night elf sentinels, why does it matter? She states is clearly she was against letting the Horde into Dalaran and Khadgar is there to prevent another High Elves vs Blood Elves massacre.

He is present in the Stormwind throne room when the Alliance leaders and top brass convey to pay their last respects to Varin Wrynn. Keywords being Alliance leaders.

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People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't. (DaveKosak)
It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (DaveKosak)

Just an attempt to wash the contradiction away once it has been pointed out. You posting that quote doesn't deny this fact.

Theramore was the Alliance end of the Kalimdor front in the Barrens, whereas Orgrimmar was the Horde end of the Kalimdor front in the Barrens. In that regard, had the Alliance manabombed Orgrimmar and killed everyone inside, would that make Orgrimmar a legitimate military target because "civilians had a chance to escape" throughout all of Cataclysm's timeline? In other words, had Jaina sent Orgrimmar to the bottom of the sea, she wouldn't have done anything bad; she would've simply hit a military target.

Just goes to show how an "explanation" to patch up a contradiction opens up a new contradiction and makes it even easier to notice.

[Aquamonkey]

Just an attempt to wash the contradiction away once it has been pointed out. You posting that quote doesn't deny this fact.

Theramore was the Alliance end of the Kalimdor front in the Barrens, whereas Orgrimmar was the Horde end of the Kalimdor front in the Barrens. In that regard, had the Alliance manabombed Orgrimmar and killed everyone inside, would that make Orgrimmar a legitimate military target because "civilians had a chance to escape" throughout all of Cataclysm's timeline? In other words, had Jaina sent Orgrimmar to the bottom of the sea, she wouldn't have done anything bad; she would've simply hit a military target.

Just goes to show how an "explanation" to patch up a contradiction opens up a new contradiction and makes it even easier to notice.

Except Garrosh telegraphed his attack for a week. He parked his army and navy in plain sight at Theramore's border and waited. There were no civilians in Theramore when Garrosh attacked.

Jaina's attack on Orgrimmar was specifically to exterminate the orcs. Civilians and children were her intended targets.

“There are merchants and craftsmen and innkeepers and travelers who never marched on Theramore. For pity’s sake, there’s an orphanage in Orgrimmar, my lady! We can’t—we won’t—obliterate innocents.”
Jaina had to take a moment to make her voice steady enough to speak. “The orphans there will grow up to become Horde,” she said. “They are being taught to hate us, to plot against us. There are no innocents in that Light-forsaken city, Khadgar. There are no innocents anywhere. Not anymore.”
[...]
“You are right,” [Thrall] said, causing [Jaina] to look at him with a surprised expression. “I wasn’t there. But I can see what it has done to you. What Garrosh did to you. Fight Garrosh. I will not stop you. But do not make innocents—children, Jaina!—pay his blood price! You won’t just kill them; you will kill the future!”
“There’s no future for those who died in agony at Theramore,” Jaina shot back. “Why should the orcs have one when they don’t? When Kinndy doesn’t, or Tervosh, or all those good and decent people?”
--Tides of War

[Zulkhan]

Semantics. Noone else ever suggested such idea. It was Thrall's idea and Thrall's alone. Such decisions are made at privite council meeting and not in some underground stronghold with city being in mess and the enemy standing right there.

Irrelevant. Matters not that it was "Thrall's idea". What he ultimately did was voicing his opinion. He didn't decide a thing. He was the first proposing the idea because he was called by Vol'jin himself when he proposed Thrall to take the mantle again. The other leaders were 100% free to disagree with Thrall's "idea" but none of them did. The closest to actual disagreement was Sylvanas but she quickly gave it up when she realized to be in blatant minority.

And seriously, the situation required a Warchief ASAP, there was no time for any formality. Do you think Varian would have just waited the Horde to organize a private meeting?

The difference is that Vol'jin had a strong argument (the Loa told him to do it) while Thrall pulled his idea out of an ass.

That's not really a strong argument. In the end it was still Vol'jin interpreting "visions" and making a decision by his own sharing zero details about said decision. In fact, he just said "many will not understand" and everyone just sucked it up.

WHAT was the idea behind suggesting Vol'jin being a warchief? Night Elves helped the Horde more than Vol'jin's 'revolutionaries' lol. Seriously, I hate Thrall not because he is a Mery Sue with super powers, but because he gets away with EVERYTHING. Each dumbass idea.

Thrall explains quite well the reasons behind such "idea", which are tacitly sustained by the leaders that blatantly agreed with him. Heck, even the leader who sort of disagreed (Sylvanas) acknowledged Vol'jin's accomplishments.

Seriously, there's nothing drammatically hard to understand there. You may grasp at straws all day but the only objective fact is: the Horde leaders as a whole chose Vol'jin to be Warchief. Thrall doesn't have to "get away" with anything because he didn't make anything to begin with. He pushed the "idea" because he was the one called to be Warchief again, he denied the call and told who he was willing to follow as new Warchief of the Horde. Everyone else agreed. Quite a substantial difference from:

he makes Vol'jin the warchief

Oh yeah. Ebon Blade is Horde, Argent Crusade is Alliance, Kirin Tor is Alliance.
Do you even know what's the point of neutral factions? Just being in neutral faction doesnt make them Alliance/Horde only cause they are X race.

Ebon Blade, Argent Crusade and Kirin Tor are entirely independent factions. Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring are not. These two exist thanks to actual Alliance and Horde members sidelining their loyalties for the "greater good", but "sidelining" isn't "forsaking". They're still Alliance/Horde members and if these factions call them to action or meetings, they'll answer as members of said faction. Malfurion, Hamuul, Thrall, Nobundo. They all did that at some point.

And while Maraad was fitting here cause of Draenei, Thrall was fitting only cause the orcs (and alternate parents, lol). Frostfire and Nagrad, thats all. Oh yeah and later on your garrison, cause his favored Vol'jin was there too.

None of this shit matters. Thrall cooperates with the Horde as Horde member. End of the fucking story. And no, Thrall was nowhere to be seen during the 6.2, the patch where Vol'jin shown up in your garrison.

He's no Horde to me since the Cataclysm. And never will. Garrosh said it right. 'You are an orc no longer'.

Your bias towards the character can't turn into reality a falsehood. Sorry about that.

FYI I'm playing Horde since the ending of Wotlk. And even I cant stand Thrall. I actually regret Garrosh storyarc went that way, cause he indeed was what the Horde needed.

I think you're right. Same reason why I was really, really, really sad when Garithos died. He would have made the Alliance great again.

Where did I ever talk about WMDs? You're basically countering my post through the prism of someone else's arguement, bringing up WMDs.

I brought up WMDs because that was the only correlation between the two events. Because:

The point is the killing of innocents

was never the point. There's no correlation on such regard.

The Stonetalon town was populated by innocents and so was Theramore.

Oh please. Theramore was an actual military target and when Garrosh dropped the bomb the city was filled with nothing but combatants. The druid school had nothing but frightened younglings in it and was an absolutely worthless target from a military standpoint.

It is a clear contradiction of character.

Not in the slightest. You're simply projecting your beliefs towards the character, pretending he "contradicts" himself because he doesn't live up to your projection.

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Theramore was the Alliance end of the Kalimdor front in the Barrens, whereas Orgrimmar was the Horde end of the Kalimdor front in the Barrens. In that regard, had the Alliance manabombed Orgrimmar and killed everyone inside, would that make Orgrimmar a legitimate military target because "civilians had a chance to escape" throughout all of Cataclysm's timeline? In other words, had Jaina sent Orgrimmar to the bottom of the sea, she wouldn't have done anything bad; she would've simply hit a military target.

You're making it sound like Garrosh's usage of the mana bomb over Theramore was an act sanctified by the annals of Warcraft's history.

Here's a tip: just because you find an action wrong does not mean the character in question shares your views on the matter. That's something you shouldn't forget while discussing character's motivations and beliefs. Fact is: the difference between the Theramore and Stonetalon events are many and clear. There were all the reasons for Garrosh to judge the two situations differently. The fact that you don't is not relevant to the discussion.

[Deleted]

@Zulkhan

That was a very long post to reply to (I read all the parts that concern me though), so quoting it and editing out the irrelevant parts to what I am talking about is going to be a pain in the ass on this phone. I will just respond -and briefly- because I don't believe that walls of texts will make a post stronger anyway if the answer can be shortened to 3 words or less.

The current context of discussions came about after the revelations in MoP. You are easily disregarding past context of discussion without knowing what we know simply because it doesn't fit with what you personally believe, whereas back then it was still open to interpretation. I am not going to use the same wording and say that "I don't care about today's context and discussion", because first, it would be denial to what ACTUALLY happened for the character. I will, however, still stick with the notion that the context back then without the information currently at hand pointed to either direction for a long time. I said it already that I have no doubt that Garrosh would have ended up being a villain, but I am sorry because I am sticking with my personal interpretation and belief that the story could have gone EITHER way anyway, and that there was an equal chance for developing the character either way. Saying out right that he was meant to do more heroic deeds points outright to that.

I mean, it's not like it matters anymore, does it? This story is over now and it was concluded as it got progressed: Terribly.

[Deleted]

Garrosh was great untill MoP. MoP threw so much bullshit around that it is best forgotten. It obviously ties into WoD and gave birth to that "idea" too.

He was a classical orcish leader-type of character that I missed seeing since Warcraft II; aggressive, but not mad(ie speaking his mind about the Forsaken in Silverpine). Guess all that went down the drain and the Horde is being lead by an undead high elf lol

[RoKPaNda]

Even as a Villain they completely wasted the character. Thrall should have been killed in Nagrand instead of Garrosh. Thrall has been nothing but an emo glory hog for quite some time now. Garrosh at least had a very interesting story, and love him or hate him Garrosh was a total badass, he survived corruption by an old God and still went on to keep being a total badass. I'd have liked seeing his story go forward, I'd have liked seeing him become a Death Knight after the disgrace in Nagrand even.

[Raetary]

The best part about Garrosh going full psycho Tyrant was I got to kill him :3

except you didnt get to kill him.
like at all, thrall fried him.

[dippinsawse]

My interpretation of this is that they wanted Garrosh to be a badass anti-hero who loves battle but ultimately wants what is best for his people. Unfortunately they didn't know how to create a likable character progression for him. I remember in BC everyone calling him "emo" and disappointing compared to his father since he just sits around moping. Then in wrath he's somehow instantly turned into this aggro buffoon who loves battle even though he's not even experienced in war. We inevitably compare him to Saurfang and he disappoints us since we see Saurfang as the badass, seasoned orc warrior garrosh could only dream of being and on top of that he has the wisdom of a pure orc who has experienced and conquered his inner demon.

Naturally people didn't like Garrosh because he offered nothing of value as a character up to this point. He want from being a useless, whiny brat to an uplifted war "hero" even though he wasn't even experienced in war. At least with Grom we knew he was someone who would fuck shit up and redeemed himself through badassery. With garrosh he was just all talk. He wasn't badass, he wasn't smart, he wasn't wise. He was uselesss as a character. So everyone complained that he was a little bitch and also an idiot.

Blizzard saw this and realized he was a failed character so they tried to hand him more power and force it in Cata, making him warchief and trying to make him seem more badass but also honorable. Unfortunately, by this point, the damage was done and his character arc needed to move in a more definite direction. It became more and more apparent that players didn't like him and felt he was forced or obnoxious so they made the call to turn him into a villain so we would at least have the enjoyment of defeating him. Once they realized people didn't want him around he had to die for one reason or another, and when he's that unpopular, might as well let us take him out.

[Zandalariprelate]

My interpretation of this is that they wanted Garrosh to be a badass anti-hero who loves battle but ultimately wants what is best for his people. Unfortunately they didn't know how to create a likable character progression for him. I remember in BC everyone calling him "emo" and disappointing compared to his father since he just sits around moping. Then in wrath he's somehow instantly turned into this aggro buffoon who loves battle even though he's not even experienced in war. We inevitably compare him to Saurfang and he disappoints us since we see Saurfang as the badass, seasoned orc warrior garrosh could only dream of being and on top of that he has the wisdom of a pure orc who has experienced and conquered his inner demon.

Naturally people didn't like Garrosh because he offered nothing of value as a character up to this point. He want from being a useless, whiny brat to an uplifted war "hero" even though he wasn't even experienced in war. At least with Grom we knew he was someone who would fuck shit up and redeemed himself through badassery. With garrosh he was just all talk. He wasn't badass, he wasn't smart, he wasn't wise. He was uselesss as a character. So everyone complained that he was a little bitch and also an idiot.

Blizzard saw this and realized he was a failed character so they tried to hand him more power and force it in Cata, making him warchief and trying to make him seem more badass but also honorable. Unfortunately, by this point, the damage was done and his character arc needed to move in a more definite direction. It became more and more apparent that players didn't like him and felt he was forced or obnoxious so they made the call to turn him into a villain so we would at least have the enjoyment of defeating him. Once they realized people didn't want him around he had to die for one reason or another, and when he's that unpopular, might as well let us take him out.

Nah he was always a dick that wanted to everyone admire him and eliminate all the people who defied the orcs in general, since wotlk many persons think he would be a boss at some point which happend, as a warlock main I really like to beat him in siege of orgrimmar and was really happy he die like a bitch even if that was a Thrall hands.

[dippinsawse]

Nah he was always a dick that wanted to everyone admire him and eliminate all the people who defied the orcs in general, since wotlk many persons think he would be a boss at some point which happend, as a warlock main I really like to beat him in siege of orgrimmar and was really happy he die like a bitch even if that was a Thrall hands.

I don't remember anyone speculating that. It doesn't really make sense either. Him speaking aggressively and being ready to fight the alliance doesn't mean he will be a boss because for a major lore character to be a boss they have to be opposed to both factions. If you felt there was precedent for him to be a raid boss in wrath then there was just as much precedent for Varian to be. They were both built up as hot-headed leaders loyal to their people but a bit too eager for war.

If he was being groomed as a boss that early he wouldn't have been made the warchief in the first place because that created massive lore complications for them to turn him into an all-around big bad that the horde would also want to kill. They clearly made an attempt for him to be a likable, if flawed character in cata.

And let's be real, if they knew in wrath they wanted him to be a tragic character corrupted against us he would have been in Saurfang Jr's place in icecrown. He was a much more fitting and known character for that role. In fact that would have been a much more fitting character arc for him. He was too eager to prove himself despite his father's legacy and he would have done exactly what dranosh did at the wrathgate and that fate would be much more in line with his status as a moping fuckup from the backwaters of a peaceful town in nagrand. He wouldn't have known how to fight and he wouldn't have the orcish bloodlust like his father. He was just a kid who wanted to prove himself as powerful and honorable both to earn his name and erase his shame in his father.

[Zulkhan]

If you felt there was precedent for him to be a raid boss in wrath then there was just as much precedent for Varian to be.

Except Varian never had some old war veteran telling his actions were leading his people to a dark place that wasn't witnessed in decades.

[Deleted]

They should have played everything off his daddy/lonelinesss-issues.
(Disclaimer: I didn't play Pandaland an Wod when it was recent, so I may be missing something.)

After he got picked up by Thrall and gained (too much) confidence in Northrend, Saurfang became his Mentor and a fatherfigure. Here it helps that Saurfangs son died, maybe making him see Garrosh too as a replacement for his son. So by learning from his replacementfather Garrosh cools down a lot.

With Cata he now gets to be Warchief but theres several issues. First you have the problem of half the world exploding under your ass just as you get to be in charge, increasing your workload massively. Then you have incompetent subordinates which may thought alongside the "old" you (Stonetalon). Next you kill Cairne with a poisoned weapon, which is not your fault but you still get blamed for it. Meanwhile, deep-down you kinda doubt your win even under fair conditions. While you have all these issues you friend Thrall fucks off and your fatherfigure Saurfang is mourning the death of his actual son leaving you alone.

All this shit leaves you stressed, kinda being hinted at by Nazgrim being afraid of getting chewed out after the Pandalandintro. Now, over time, you get shit in order. You kick the Tauren out, some of which still blame you for Cairne. You kick out the Trolls who kinda didn't do anything (?) and then having their leader threaten you. Sylvanas also is kind of a dick with the Val'kyr stuff and Bloodelfes do their own thing anyways. You also blow up Theramore which was a supplypoint for Alliancetroops. This leaves you with Subordinates that follow you because you are/were a warhero of sorts and Goblins that are on your side because you pay them.

Since you are now left alone, while the Horde under your command does some things in Pandaland you get kinda cocky and filled with some pride. Things are looking up, except now you get beaten down again by the people who kinda left you on your own. Now your pissed off again and (you+all orcs) have to stand in some retarded trial, while any other "Boss" would have been killed on the spot. Feeling mocked you take the offer, go to Draenor and help your father while also going for Revenge.

Until I thought of it from this perspective (which happened randomly a week or two ago) I despised Garrosh, too. As in "you can have a trial in Pandaland, but let me chop of at least one of his arms and let me beat him up with it, beforehand".

[Zandalariprelate]

Except Varian never had some old war veteran telling his actions were leading his people to a dark place that wasn't witnessed in decades.

+1 Zulkhan

[Evangeliste]

I wish they just did Garrosh a little better. The way they handled him made him a very misunderstood character to where yes, many see him hanging around to then be Warchief, have all this backstory that virtually no one knows unless you are an avid lore delver.

Personally, they should have made his actions because he didn't want to be a failure and under the shadow of his father for all his deeds and misdeeds.
I mean Thrall is a green skin, Garrosh is a brown skin. At the end he's in one way or another staring at his father's 'helpful' actions. I think that might have been the intention to make him more "heroic", he was made by Thrall to do wrong but all he wanted to undo the mistakes that happened that by blood and in name he's linked too.
I just found him travelling back to that time to persuade his father away from it in the beginning to start that train of thought but I guess in the end, as stated they just didn't get to explain it that way or even push the storyline that way.

[Deleted]

Good kid raised badly by Metzen, sorry I meant Thrall

[Deleted]

Yeah, Bwonsamdi all but says, "Hey man, you can take the Horde back and get it on track but it'll cost you in the long run."

Whether you like it or not, Blizzard will continue supporting social justice ideas and that means portraying dictators and -above all else, just nasty- characters as bad guys that ultimately lose. I, for one, consider that good story telling: You set up the pins, you foreshadow how they'll fall, then you execute that plan and try to show another side to it as you go. Garrosh sucked, he followed exactly the path they put him on in TBC, Nazgrim didn't suck but he died too and that actually made me feel something.

You can blame Pandas or Developers or even other players. But I think you're just salty cos the guy you liked was a baddie all along and that probably says a lot about you as a person xD

So Social Justice is all about those who call themselves King are the pinnacle of virtue in a race.

Fuck, somebody has to call the americans, they probably made a huge mistake in throwing the King out.