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  1. #701
    The Patient sonololo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Besides, quality of life in Greece is pretty darn awesome. Bars open till morning, beautiful beaches, healthcare in top 15 world wide (much higher than USA or Canada), beautiful marble / granite metro etc. I am quite impressed with what i am seeing here tbh.
    Yes, were to Greece. It's awesome, but too hot for me.

    But I'm usually comparing with pensions; and the purchasing power of the average pensioner.

    I'll ask you, what's the minimum livable income in the Greece?

    Average greek pension in 2015 is €882
    Average russian pension in 2015 is 12100 roubles, which is 186 euro.

    Minimum livable income in Russia, averaged between regions, is 9662 rub (148 euro), and is 13800 in Moscow (its a very expensive city, mind you). And let's keep in the mind that many foods and goods is imported and their price usually depends on the dollar. Many of pensioners also don't have other means of income.

    Question – how much is a minimum livable income for pensioners in the Greece?

    But the subtext is that, why, considering huge budget income from the oil and gas, social sector is pretty shit?
    It's usually joked that it's "Obama shits on us", but it's just a joke.
    Last edited by sonololo; 2016-12-30 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #702
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    What we should do is get our allies on board and block Russia from the internet for 4 years. Oh I know it won't hurt Russian hackers but it will hurt Russian citizens in STEM careers, the internet is vital to keep up these days. Just losing something like GitHub for a few years would set Russian programmers back.

    When everything is cutting edge these days, getting set back a few years is a death blow.
    Ahah ahaha omg the level of retardation is through the roof in this thread xD who da fuq you think US is ? Gods ? Please if you couldn't stop the alleged hack in the 1st place, how the fuck you gonna block Russia from internet ? You do realise that internet doesn't belong/isn't limited to US? My fucking god you people ..
    And like others said this is Obama being a lil bitch, trying to show something - and this will be undone next month , cause thankfully Trump isn't retarded , and realises that cooperation between Russia and US is great for the world .
    And instead of trying to deal with imaginary hackers , why doesn't US do something about Hilldog ? Everyone knows she is guilty of treason and mishandling information , but she jus said "I'm sorry" - and everyone is like , "oh it's cool Hilldog , we love you , fuck us up more !".

    Thx to Isilrien for the awesome sig

  3. #703
    Quote Originally Posted by sonololo View Post
    What does the CNN have anything with here?
    They are the only "primary" source of "Russia prevents access to school for diplomat's children" so far (which you used).

    Also; I'm not sure why someone invented and gave the Disinformation a new word - "fakenews".
    Western media wanted new word for easier trending.

  4. #704
    Quote Originally Posted by sonololo View Post
    Question – how much is a minimum livable income for pensioners in the Greece?
    No idea. But mind you that Greece pensions are too high for their economy. They need to be slashed by at least 2/3rds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I am just imagining the day and time that i login to these forums (or anywhere else in general) and i read people willing to judge their governments for their misdoings and are willing to be friends with each other. Because right now all i am reading is people eager to see more wars. People backing up their own governments as if they give two poops if you live or die. It should be us that give the pace, direction and determine our future and not some retards warmongers or the multi trillion war industry lobbies.
    Last edited by Ulmita; 2016-12-30 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #705
    Banned Kontinuum's Avatar
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    Russian ministry announces plans to expel 35 US diplomats in tit-for-tat move
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-us-diplomats

  6. #706
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You act like NATO was making moves on Russia or something. Everyone was perfectly happy to do business with the Russian Federation until they started invading countries to drum up nationalist fervor and prop up Putin's numbers at home. There's a clear bad guy here.
    You can't be fucking real. Propaganda was running even during Sochi games, well before the so called "Russian intervention in Ukraine". And Ukraine itself if quite hilarious. What would you do if there was a coup in Canada, turning Canada against you? Enough is enough. You're all over Russia. And now they are forced to defend themselves. You created this situation and it will harm only YOU.

  7. #707
    Quote Originally Posted by Kontinuum View Post
    Russian ministry announces plans to expel 35 US diplomats in tit-for-tat move
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-us-diplomats

    Hopefully Putin declines the suggestion.

  8. #708
    Pandaren Monk jugzilla's Avatar
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    I'm old. Old and drunk. And American. I have guns. I only use 1 or 2 syll. Able words. I kind of take the long view, and maybe I am naive. But I don't think many people realize Russia paid the blood price not once, but twice, maybe 3 times for defending the nation-states of Europe. There are expansionist tendencies, but my country has that too. If it wasn't for Russia in 1812, Europeans would be speaking french right now. If it wasn't for Russia in 1941, they would be speaking German right now, or still paying off the US for the insane amount of casualties it would have took to win that war without them. Yeah....we had this blip on the radar screen of the USSR and communism, but for most of Russian History...they just wanted to be taken seriously, and respected as a great Nation among the European states. Now...communism was a very bad thing, but I see more Communism in California than I see in Russia atm. I look forward to that good old fashioned cold war dream were the US and Russia actually get along. It seems Democrats will stand in the way but we will see what happens.
    Last edited by jugzilla; 2016-12-30 at 11:11 AM.
    Reminder to self, this is what your dealing with on mmo-c ot
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Incidentally, I have no issue with deceiving stupid people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I consider anyone right of Obama to be stupid, actually.

  9. #709
    Quote Originally Posted by b2121945 View Post
    You can't be fucking real. Propaganda was running even during Sochi games, well before the so called "Russian intervention in Ukraine". And Ukraine itself if quite hilarious. What would you do if there was a coup in Canada, turning Canada against you? Enough is enough. You're all over Russia. And now they are forced to defend themselves. You created this situation and it will harm only YOU.
    Let's play spot the lie. Russia's lust for annexing a neighboring power's country and exploiting an internal struggle to do so is not even remotely the same thing as what you try to claim happened.
    “Logic: The art of thinking and reasoning in strict accordance with the limitations and incapacities of the human misunderstanding.”
    "Conservative, n: A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal who wishes to replace them with others."
    Ambrose Bierce
    The Bird of Hermes Is My Name, Eating My Wings To Make Me Tame.

  10. #710
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    I'm old. Old and drunk. And American. I have guns. I only use 1 or 2 syll. Able words. I kind of take the long view, and maybe I am naive. But I don't think many people realize Russia paid the blood price not once, but twice, maybe 3 times for defending the nation-states of Europe. There are expansionist tendencies, but my country has that too. If it wasn't for Russia in 1812, Europeans would be speaking french right now. If it wasn't for Russia in 1938, they would be speaking German right now, or still paying off the US for the insane amount of casualties it would have took to win that war without them. Yeah....we had this blip on the radar screen of the USSR and communism, but for most of Russian History...they just wanted to be taken seriously, and respected as a great Nation among the European states. Now...communism was a very bad thing, but I see more Communism in California than I see in Russia atm. I look forward to that good old fashioned cold war dream were the US and Russia actually get along. It seems Democrats will stand in the way but we will see what happens.

    nicely said

  11. #711
    The Patient sonololo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    No idea. But mind you that Greece pensions are too high for their economy. They need to be slashed by at least 2/3rds.
    Even when slashing thrice the times, Greek pensions is higher than Russian; and Greece doesn't have the stable monetary influx in the budget except for the tourism industry...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    I am just imagining the day and time that i login to these forums (or anywhere else in general) and i read people willing to judge their governments for their misdoings and are willing to be friends with each other. Because right now all i am reading is people eager to see more wars. People backing up their own governments as if they give two poops if you live or die. It should be us that give the pace, direction and determine our future and not some retards warmongers or the multi trillion war industry lobbies.
    Oh, I can attest to it, but I'm really in a minority with my mindset that the many woes of the Russia is not because of foreign intervention, it's because of a pretty awful government, and the main threat to the Russia isn't from the US or the NATO, it's from the Russian government itself. It's just shifts the blame.

    Yes, the US are a rival; but let's consider an other point – US doesn't really does anything harsh, except stirring shit sometimes, it just waits before the Putin dies and his cronies start infighting; or the economy crumbles more. Playing alongside that the US in the wrong just delay the inevitable and wastes the time.

    Mother Russia bleeds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    If it wasn't for Russia in 1938
    I'd correct – in 1941.

    My great-grandfather in 1939 fought in the Winter War, when USSR invaded the Finland.
    Last edited by sonololo; 2016-12-30 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #712
    Quote Originally Posted by Hardstyler01 View Post
    This is pathetic. Like the US doesn't try to do this shit to other countries? And what do they gain from this? In a few weeks Trump is in office and they will have accomplished nothing with this move. Really childish.

    Exactly. Majority of republican party supports this. 2 republican senators on fox news were trying to wage war, no less. SO yeah, such childish behavior. You should tell Paul Ryan to stop since he claimed that it was time US taught Russia a lesson.

    If you want to Kiss Putin's butt-cheek, my friend, you gotta go over Trump's dead body!

  13. #713
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Ignoring that Democrats are vastly outnumbered when it comes to the state and local level, and that Republicans have held both houses for 6 years now.
    The Republicans have held the house for 6 years, and the senate for a mere two. The Democrats had 53 seats in 2012, and lost 9 in 2014. And I am definitely ignoring the state and local level when discussing top level federal positions: the potential for corruption seems a lot lower to me. Heck, when the state governments went to enforce existing laws that were contrary to the will of the Democratic party, the Obama administration was successful in stopping them from doing so. The executive branch is a great deal more powerful than it was just twenty years ago, a trend that continued under Obama. If you think that the plethora of state governments would be as attractive or more for drawing in corruption- well, you could be correct. But that's not my opinion, and I was giving my own personal estimate. An optimist might guess 1/10 for both, a pessimist might guess much higher than me. My point is, whatever your ORIGINAL estimation of corruption or other odd stuff, the leaks should have increased what you thought for the Ds (unless you had a really terrible opinion of them before), and not really budged your estimation for the Rs.

    It's hilarious to me how everyone just forgets that the president is not literally all the political power in the US, that there is still a legislature and judicial branch, and that a huge number of things happen on a state level.
    Again, this isn't about that. This is about where corruption would target. Corruption in general will want the best bang for its buck. But again, I was just explaining my rationale for my initial guess.


    such as?
    The stuff I listed, plus honestly more. Memory only takes me so far, and googling is a bit frustrating. I tried to pick out some of the ones that were definitely not normal, and that were definitely impactful. This was just a thin sample of the total communications that went on- it's not like they hacked all of gmail or anything. If you dip your hand in the water and it comes up a bit slimey, you will reasonably assume that there's more slime should you sample more of the water.

    Because 90%+ of the shit I've seen posted here as "damning" and "proof of corruption!" is pretty routine email correspondence being grossly misrepresented, or because people are literally making shit up.
    Totally. The craziest stuff is usually incubated in a situation where some email will get posted to a place, and everyone will spitball ideas. That would be how a conversation might work, but online, you end up with upvotes and downvotes and people quoting and saying crazier stuff. The process doesn't converge on the truth, it converges on what is the most interesting or inflammatory thing you can claim.


    But... that doesn't mean there isn't dicked up stuff in there.

    Yep, that whole affair is beyond stupid, especially given how obvious those questions were going to be. And the fact that the DNC didn't boot her ass to the curb then and there (I think she's still interim chair, for that matter) is stupid as hell.
    Sticking with her sent a strong message that she did nothing wrong in their eyes, which I very much doubt helped them, or any one. The DNC will simply have to clean house, and they seem unwilling to do so yet. Soon, probably.

    Hardly something that I'd call "corruption", but definitely wildly unprofessional and stupid.
    I would not hesitate to call it corruption, but maybe we evaluate the term a little differently. By bringing these quotes over, she was proving herself a loyal trooper to the cause. She was willing to dash Sanders to the curb in exchange for Clinton, despite being in a position that required her neutrality. She also lost her position at CNN over it. I feel she expected a reward from the Clintons under a Clinton presidency- it smells like corruption. No laws broken though. But shady af.

    Sauce on that one? Hadn't heard about that one, so curious to read more into it.
    It's fast:
    https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/46480


    Yep, and the contents of her speeches was pretty tame.
    I don't feel that way. I don't know how voters felt about it either, and I wouldn't trust a poll on it (poll...ololololol). Clinton and her team obviously didn't feel that they were tame, as they didn't release the transcripts, and they actually discuss the points in the speech and how they would make her look bad. I feel if they had been available earlier, it would have made a serious impact on the primaries. Sanders could have supped at that table for quite awhile.

    The "public/private" thing, when you actually read the full speech, was her talking about Lincoln and referencing the biopic on him. When presented in context, that seemingly damning snippet of her speech loses all its "teeth".

    I mean, I find it pretty revolting. Here's the context:

    Quote Originally Posted by HRC 2013
    You just have to sort of figure out how to -- getting back to that word, "balance" -- how to balance the public and the private efforts that are necessary to be successful, politically, and that's not just a comment about today. That, I think, has probably been true for all of our history, and if you saw the Spielberg movie, Lincoln, and how he was maneuvering and working to get the 13th Amendment passed, and he called one of my favorite predecessors, Secretary Seward, who had been the governor and senator from New York, ran against Lincoln for president, and he told Seward, I need your help to get this done. And Seward called some of his lobbyist friends who knew how to make a deal, and they just kept going at it. I mean, politics is like sausage being made. It is unsavory, and it always has been that way, but we usually end up where we need to be. But if everybody's watching, you know, all of the back room discussions and the deals, you know, then people get a little nervous, to say the least. So, you need both a public and a private position. And finally, I think -- I believe in evidence-based decision making. I want to know what the facts are. I mean, it's like when you guys go into some kind of a deal, you know, are you going to do that development or not, are you going to do that renovation or not, you know, you look at the numbers. You try to figure out what's going to work and what's not going to work.
    Lincoln's "private position" of total abolitionism was well understood in the north and the south, and the south was in rebellion before he even took office. The reason I find the quote distressing is, she is pointing to one specific part of history where we all find the results desirable. In order to find this case, she had to dig back to the 1860s. This means she's using this to justify her own "back room discussions and the deals", and that it's bad if the people find out the truth and "get a little nervous". Digging back over a century to find a case where back room dealings are arguably a good thing is something I find pretty damned chilling.

    Anyway, you can read that and be fine with it. I'm not fine with it. But you can't dispute that it's considered a big deal by at least a reasonable amount of the electorate- it even made its way to the debate.

    Sauce on this one as well? Again, first I'm hearing about it.
    Discussion about it is longish and annoying.
    https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/3560
    Here's the lists:
    https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8190
    (click on attachments)

    This email ended up being reasonably predictive, I think, but I haven't point by pointed it all personally.

    VAGUE recollection of this, but sauce if you have it would be nice.
    https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/5690
    I read this as being, the sender had something to do with Biden's decision not to run, and is pleased to be on what he thinks is the winning team. Maybe it means something else, but it is definitely creepy. I doubt your work emails include many of those phrases!

    ...and? If her campaign was trying to ensure that had a qualified and diverse staff, I see no issue.
    I see an issue, but I believe people should be appointed by merit, not handled by category. In any event, there's some that think more like you on the issue, and some that think more like me on the issue.... but like,the groupings are extreme- separate documents by group that the person belongs to, or each person grouped under a heading for whatever their diversity qualifications are. It's like that's the most important thing that matters.

    Painfully routine, welcome to internal communications at any company or within any organization.
    Sure, but that means that they know the scandals are true and are busy trying to spin them properly. They don't spend time saying stuff like "we need to get the truth out", or not as much as I would expect if they actually believed their own statements.


    Do people think this doesn't happen or something?
    Some do, yes. Personally, I didn't think it happened this much.

    Because these are not "normal" people. These are highly placed politicians, political operatives, and media.
    Maybe that's a problem too.
    Last edited by XorMalice; 2016-12-30 at 11:38 AM.

  14. #714
    Pandaren Monk jugzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel View Post
    Conformed for high as a kite or not having a clue.
    You certainly proved me wrong with your insightful rebuke to...history.
    Reminder to self, this is what your dealing with on mmo-c ot
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Incidentally, I have no issue with deceiving stupid people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I consider anyone right of Obama to be stupid, actually.

  15. #715
    Legendary! TZucchini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahovv View Post
    The contents were all true. The corruption was accurate. Why are people angry at Russia for leaking this information instead of thanking them for uncovering the truth?
    I like how this has become the defacto defense from Trump supporters. "They released the truth!!!!"

    How about this. How do you know the contents of the emails were true? None of the emails leaked were ever verified by the hacked parties. Where is your persistent demand for proof when it comes to verifying the contents of the emails?
    Eat yo vegetables

  16. #716
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    You certainly proved me wrong with your insightful rebuke to...history.
    In WW2 they started shit and then defended themselves. In WW1 they surrendered halfway through.

    So what occasions are you talking about?

  17. #717
    Pandaren Monk jugzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRE 9-11 View Post
    I like how this has become the defacto defense from Trump supporters. "They released the truth!!!!"

    How about this. How do you know the contents of the emails were true? None of the emails leaked were ever verified by the hacked parties. Where is your persistent demand for proof when it comes to verifying the contents of the emails?
    So...you put out the possibility that the emails are not actually leaked, the Russians never hacked anything, and this is all a joke. Is this an actual position you have? You might want to check with Obama. He says it DID happen, the emails are real, and it's the Russians fault.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    In WW2 they started shit and then defended themselves. In WW1 they surrendered halfway through.

    So what occasions are you talking about?
    Ok, you must have missed 1812, but that was a long time ago, you probably weren't old enough to remember Napoleon.
    Reminder to self, this is what your dealing with on mmo-c ot
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Incidentally, I have no issue with deceiving stupid people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I consider anyone right of Obama to be stupid, actually.

  18. #718
    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    So...you put out the possibility that the emails are not actually leaked, the Russians never hacked anything, and this is all a joke. Is this an actual position you have? You might want to check with Obama. He says it DID happen, the emails are real, and it's the Russians fault.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Ok, you must have missed 1812, but that was a long time ago, you probably weren't old enough to remember Napoleon.
    So, even counting events 200 years ago, the counter is still at 1, not 2-3. And your age must be quite impressive if you remember Napoleon. Did you play chess to together or something?

  19. #719
    Legendary! TZucchini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jugzilla View Post
    So...you put out the possibility that the emails are not actually leaked, the Russians never hacked anything, and this is all a joke. Is this an actual position you have? You might want to check with Obama. He says it DID happen, the emails are real, and it's the Russians fault.
    How could you possibly have gotten that from my post?

    I'm challenging the individuals (including Trump) who are screaming for MORE PROOF that Russia hacked the information. These are the same individuals who keep saying "lol why you so mad that the truth was uncovered?" Yet, to my knowledge, there's been no verifiable proof that the emails are authentic, or haven't been doctored.
    Eat yo vegetables

  20. #720
    Pandaren Monk jugzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberowl View Post
    So, even counting events 200 years ago, the counter is still at 1, not 2-3. And your age must be quite impressive if you remember Napoleon. Did you play chess to together or something?
    Well if you are willing to give me 1812 out of sheer ignorance, you have to give me WWII also. I would love to hear you debate how the Russians lost WWII.
    Reminder to self, this is what your dealing with on mmo-c ot
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    Incidentally, I have no issue with deceiving stupid people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Didactic View Post
    I consider anyone right of Obama to be stupid, actually.

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