MM vs BM PVE in 7.1.5

[TOM_RUS]

It's too early to decide what is better. Tuning isn't complete yet.

[Finbezz]

BM is the better spec to play on average for the first two bosses of ToV. MM has higher parses but on average BM does more damage. Also, BM play style is ideal for Odyn with all the movement and dodging. Ideally a hunter would play BM for the first two bosses and MM for Heyla.

Odyn is also a fight that highlights pet position is important to doing good dps.

The only thing you added to the conversation was an attempt to belittle people.

hahahahahahahahah that's funny as fuck. you're so far gone it's not even worth discussing anything with you. so funny what low level raiders come up with to justify their tribalistic attraction to a certain spec.

[rogerbrown]

Roger said this 2 PTR patch cycles ago, he's not a theorycrafter and while he's a good player, he's being misleading as fuck by spreading misinformation like that. The class is still receiving mechanical changes possibly based on the latest blue posts, and tuning hasnt finished yet, and hadnt when he said he was going BM also.

BM being mobile was the case in EN too, MM was still dominant in EN. The only reason roger is swapping loot spec to BM is he has the MM legendaries he wants already, if he didnt have boots and belt, I think its highly unlikely he would be swapping.

I don't normally post in these forums, but seeing this post I wanted to clarify something. I don't understand how I am being 'misleading as fuck by spreading misinformation like that'. Can you post me any vod or post of mine where I say something misleading? What I have said, and I still believe will be true for NH are the following few things:

MM
- becomes less mobile than it is atm
- will be strong for ST damage
- will be way worse for target swapping than it is now
- loses the ability to do good spread out aoe/cleave damage
- will 'require' triple Quick Shot relics, legendary boots, 4p, and probably even the trinket from Magistrix to do optimal dps (not having these things will be a significant blow to your damage, as they all work together essentially making each other way better than if they were by themselves).

BM
- Gets overall buffed (too many abilities to post here)
- 35-->54 traits are finally fixed
- Doesn't require 4p, magistrix trinket, high level relics (you just need to get some decent ilvl Kill Command relics - which there are 2 traits for - and there are a lot of them dropping in Nighthold)
- Seems to need the new legendary Shoulders that give 2 charges to Dire Beast, making your rotation way smoother
- Has great mobility, no ramp up required for target switching, and on demand aoe cleave with Beast cleave (compared to MM which can basically only do good aoe if you use Trueshot)

So after seeing all of the above, I say that I think in NH it is very likely that MM will be better for some bosses, and BM for some other bosses. The problem is that I think BM will still perform decently on the bosses where MM will be strongest, while MM will be quite bad on the bosses where BM will be strongest. Now when we are talking about progressing in a new Raid, where you are not out-gearing encounters, and have to play new mechanics, you have to also take into account that BM is going to be significantly easier to play compared to MM where you have to look at your Vulnerable all the time. So yes I think it is for me safe to say that MM will not dominate NH like it did in EN/ToV for all of these reasons.

Only thing that you really need for BM are the Legendary Shoulders + the Legendary Belt (not needed but still will be very strong). That is why I find the Legendary system so annoying, because it might determine if I can play a spec or not.

Anyway, as I said I would really like to know where exactly I am misleading people. Even on my stream I have a command !spec which says that I am not sure, but I am preparing both specs for NH just in case. So I hope I made that clear, and don't see any more posts like this. Might revisit this thread after NH just for the keks anyway :P

edit: Just to clarify, from what I have seen, MM will be better for pure ST bosses, but BM will be way more flexible, and will be better when you want to kill of adds, target switching a lot etc etc.

[darahion]

I don't normally post in these forums, but seeing this post I wanted to clarify something. I don't understand how I am being 'misleading as fuck by spreading misinformation like that'. Can you post me any vod or post of mine where I say something misleading? What I have said, and I still believe will be true for NH are the following few things:

MM
- becomes less mobile than it is atm
- will be strong for ST damage
- will be way worse for target swapping than it is now
- loses the ability to do good spread out aoe/cleave damage
- will 'require' triple Quick Shot relics, legendary boots, 4p, and probably even the trinket from Magistrix to do optimal dps (not having these things will be a significant blow to your damage, as they all work together essentially making each other way better than if they were by themselves).

BM
- Gets overall buffed (too many abilities to post here)
- 35-->54 traits are finally fixed
- Doesn't require 4p, magistrix trinket, high level relics (you just need to get some decent ilvl Kill Command relics - which there are 2 traits for - and there are a lot of them dropping in Nighthold)
- Seems to need the new legendary Shoulders that give 2 charges to Dire Beast, making your rotation way smoother
- Has great mobility, no ramp up required for target switching, and on demand aoe cleave with Beast cleave (compared to MM which can basically only do good aoe if you use Trueshot)

So after seeing all of the above, I say that I think in NH it is very likely that MM will be better for some bosses, and BM for some other bosses. The problem is that I think BM will still perform decently on the bosses where MM will be strongest, while MM will be quite bad on the bosses where BM will be strongest. Now when we are talking about progressing in a new Raid, where you are not out-gearing encounters, and have to play new mechanics, you have to also take into account that BM is going to be significantly easier to play compared to MM where you have to look at your Vulnerable all the time. So yes I think it is for me safe to say that MM will not dominate NH like it did in EN/ToV for all of these reasons.

Only thing that you really need for BM are the Legendary Shoulders + the Legendary Belt (not needed but still will be very strong). That is why I find the Legendary system so annoying, because it might determine if I can play a spec or not.

Anyway, as I said I would really like to know where exactly I am misleading people. Even on my stream I have a command !spec which says that I am not sure, but I am preparing both specs for NH just in case. So I hope I made that clear, and don't see any more posts like this. Might revisit this thread after NH just for the keks anyway :P

edit: Just to clarify, from what I have seen, MM will be better for pure ST bosses, but BM will be way more flexible, and will be better when you want to kill of adds, target switching a lot etc etc.

Sidewinders still functions the same on PTR as is does on live. From their most recent comment, they basically stated they want marked shot to be doing the same damage as it does on live AND they are buffing how much marking targets procs, so target switching will be easier to do, on demand. So, how does it become worse in AOE situations?

Edit: Especially with MM legendary gloves being added, it only makes MM that much more reliable with movement. (However, I do agree about how it sucks that you basically need a legendary to achieve a certain play style)

[xcess]

Haha so I guess someone told you bout this thread. But hati is still not fixed right so that might hurt BM still ?

[Mavick]

Blizzard hasn't done tuning yet though - Most of the changes revolved around the changes in mechanics.

Expect many balance changes the week after new year. They said marked shot will be going up to the damage that has on live right now (or close to it).

You are stretching the hell out of what they said about it and leaving some out. The actual quote was along the lines of "both aimed shot and marked shot could do a bit closer to their damage on live". Translated: some kind of nerf to aimed shot damage and some kind of buff to marked. Never did they say they were absolutely bringing marked shot back to it's live damage. Not saying it won't happen, but certainly not what has been said so far.

[Muddler]

So legendary shoulders for BM is pretty much mandatory to be optimal? I hate this RNG legendary system and the Diablo nonsense every D3 player hated being brought into this game. For real.

[Megotaku77]

So literally...why you argue about this 40% down time... (which is beyond exaggeration)

I'm just going to leave this here. I'm beyond tired of arguing with people so lazy and delusional they don't even know how their spec works while bragging about how they can "triple their DPS" with shit handled with a pet macro. Banard, you aren't just wrong. You're fractally wrong. You're wrong on every premise of every argument leading to every conclusion you have. It's sad.

[Arrol]

I don't normally post in these forums, but seeing this post I wanted to clarify something. I don't understand how I am being 'misleading as fuck by spreading misinformation like that'. Can you post me any vod or post of mine where I say something misleading? What I have said, and I still believe will be true for NH are the following few things:

MM
- becomes less mobile than it is atm
- will be strong for ST damage
- will be way worse for target swapping than it is now
- loses the ability to do good spread out aoe/cleave damage
- will 'require' triple Quick Shot relics, legendary boots, 4p, and probably even the trinket from Magistrix to do optimal dps (not having these things will be a significant blow to your damage, as they all work together essentially making each other way better than if they were by themselves).

BM
- Gets overall buffed (too many abilities to post here)
- 35-->54 traits are finally fixed
- Doesn't require 4p, magistrix trinket, high level relics (you just need to get some decent ilvl Kill Command relics - which there are 2 traits for - and there are a lot of them dropping in Nighthold)
- Seems to need the new legendary Shoulders that give 2 charges to Dire Beast, making your rotation way smoother
- Has great mobility, no ramp up required for target switching, and on demand aoe cleave with Beast cleave (compared to MM which can basically only do good aoe if you use Trueshot)

So after seeing all of the above, I say that I think in NH it is very likely that MM will be better for some bosses, and BM for some other bosses. The problem is that I think BM will still perform decently on the bosses where MM will be strongest, while MM will be quite bad on the bosses where BM will be strongest. Now when we are talking about progressing in a new Raid, where you are not out-gearing encounters, and have to play new mechanics, you have to also take into account that BM is going to be significantly easier to play compared to MM where you have to look at your Vulnerable all the time. So yes I think it is for me safe to say that MM will not dominate NH like it did in EN/ToV for all of these reasons.

Only thing that you really need for BM are the Legendary Shoulders + the Legendary Belt (not needed but still will be very strong). That is why I find the Legendary system so annoying, because it might determine if I can play a spec or not.

Anyway, as I said I would really like to know where exactly I am misleading people. Even on my stream I have a command !spec which says that I am not sure, but I am preparing both specs for NH just in case. So I hope I made that clear, and don't see any more posts like this. Might revisit this thread after NH just for the keks anyway :P

edit: Just to clarify, from what I have seen, MM will be better for pure ST bosses, but BM will be way more flexible, and will be better when you want to kill of adds, target switching a lot etc etc.

First off, I wasn't meaning to kinda attack you specifically, so sorry for poor wording on my part. I have less of a problem with you thinking BM will be closer to MM next patch, viable, and maybe better for some bosses. All the reasons you listed support that as well. My problem was more so to do with other people misconstruing what you said. For example when you say "i'm swapping my loot spec to BM" something like 90% of people hear that and translate it to "BM is better next patch". This isn't really your fault, and there's no way to help it really. But I was trying to explain to people that what you said doesnt mean you think BM will be better, and MM will be shit, which the person i was replying to seemed to think you said. The command on your stream seems more carefully worded and I don't really have a problem with it.

For a possible counterpoint, I think currently the damage buffs that BM gains next patch are less significant than the damage increases MM gains, Yes it probably requires every trueshot synergy, but it seems likely that If you do have most of them, that MM will exceed BM. I also don't necessarily agree that MM is less mobile if you have the legendary gloves etc, but that's of course another "required" legendary for MM, which is a potential downside and may swing the tables towards BM if you don't have it for some extremely high movement fights.

[Deleted]

I play BM cause my reflexes aren't as fast as they used to...with fights being more and more complex that's enough of a challenge for me.
It's a lot about knowing your limits. Sure, i could play MM at an average level but i'd rather be a good BM.

[Threndsa]

hahahahahahahahah that's funny as fuck. you're so far gone it's not even worth discussing anything with you. so funny what low level raiders come up with to justify their tribalistic attraction to a certain spec.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...958&dataset=95


BM overtakes MM at the 95th% mark. The best hunters, who are raiding MM will still pull out on top but for the large majority of the player base clearing mythic BM is gonna win out on Odyn. It's just not friendly for specs that need to stand still. Skill can overcome that to an extent but I bet most of those MM could pull equal or greater numbers if they had the BM artifact as high up as their MM.

Disagree on Guarm though. The movement there is predictable enough that MM is fine and obviously it's the superior spec for Helya thanks to the cleave.

Haven't really paid enough attention to NH to see which spec will win out but with AK reaching it's peak having both weapons at 34 shouldn't be difficult.

[Trapmastery]

I don't normally post in these forums, but seeing this post I wanted to clarify something. I don't understand how I am being 'misleading as fuck by spreading misinformation like that'. Can you post me any vod or post of mine where I say something misleading? What I have said, and I still believe will be true for NH are the following few things:

MM
- becomes less mobile than it is atm
- will be strong for ST damage
- will be way worse for target swapping than it is now
- loses the ability to do good spread out aoe/cleave damage
- will 'require' triple Quick Shot relics, legendary boots, 4p, and probably even the trinket from Magistrix to do optimal dps (not having these things will be a significant blow to your damage, as they all work together essentially making each other way better than if they were by themselves).

BM
- Gets overall buffed (too many abilities to post here)
- 35-->54 traits are finally fixed
- Doesn't require 4p, magistrix trinket, high level relics (you just need to get some decent ilvl Kill Command relics - which there are 2 traits for - and there are a lot of them dropping in Nighthold)
- Seems to need the new legendary Shoulders that give 2 charges to Dire Beast, making your rotation way smoother
- Has great mobility, no ramp up required for target switching, and on demand aoe cleave with Beast cleave (compared to MM which can basically only do good aoe if you use Trueshot)

So after seeing all of the above, I say that I think in NH it is very likely that MM will be better for some bosses, and BM for some other bosses. The problem is that I think BM will still perform decently on the bosses where MM will be strongest, while MM will be quite bad on the bosses where BM will be strongest. Now when we are talking about progressing in a new Raid, where you are not out-gearing encounters, and have to play new mechanics, you have to also take into account that BM is going to be significantly easier to play compared to MM where you have to look at your Vulnerable all the time. So yes I think it is for me safe to say that MM will not dominate NH like it did in EN/ToV for all of these reasons.

Only thing that you really need for BM are the Legendary Shoulders + the Legendary Belt (not needed but still will be very strong). That is why I find the Legendary system so annoying, because it might determine if I can play a spec or not.

Anyway, as I said I would really like to know where exactly I am misleading people. Even on my stream I have a command !spec which says that I am not sure, but I am preparing both specs for NH just in case. So I hope I made that clear, and don't see any more posts like this. Might revisit this thread after NH just for the keks anyway :P

edit: Just to clarify, from what I have seen, MM will be better for pure ST bosses, but BM will be way more flexible, and will be better when you want to kill of adds, target switching a lot etc etc.

*casting aimed shot* is fucking outdated. Holy shit are we playing caster class?

[Deleted]

BM
- 35-->54 traits are finally fixed

What do you mean with that?
That the trait buffs all dmg and not just pet dmg? If so I believe this was fixed pretty long ago and 7.1.5 only brings an tooltip update for the artifact.

[Firebyrd]

What do you mean with that?
That the trait buffs all dmg and not just pet dmg? If so I believe this was fixed pretty long ago and 7.1.5 only brings an tooltip update for the artifact.

Wasn't that long ago. Like in the past 4-6 weeks. It was in the broken state for literally months on live.

[Khrux]

Wasn't that long ago. Like in the past 4-6 weeks. It was in the broken state for literally months on live.

It was fixed within 2 days(?) of the first hunter's reaching 35 traits....who cares if it was broken before that, they fixed it ASAP once people could actually reach that point.

[Aggrophobic]

It's too early to decide what is better. Tuning isn't complete yet.

But... The current PTR patch is the release patch.
I doubt they'll change much.

[Firebyrd]

It was fixed within 2 days(?) of the first hunter's reaching 35 traits....who cares if it was broken before that, they fixed it ASAP once people could actually reach that point.

I care because it's indicative of exactly how much effort and care they've put into hunters (i.e. basically none). The fact that 7.0 went live with multiple large issues like this that affected hunters despite seven months of extensive feedback through alpha and beta that was ignored is a big problem.

[Yhcti]

Pet attack `
Pet Follow Alt + `

easy.

- - - Updated - - -
@rogerbrown thanks for the post dude I'm actually just going to run BM as I'm a casual scrub, I spend more time stream watching than playing these days! Also, loving the stream, you should do it more often, I hardly ever see you on! barely any decent hunters stream these days, I think just you and Gingi from what I can see.

[Arcanines]

BM is the better spec to play on average for the first two bosses of ToV. MM has higher parses but on average BM does more damage. Also, BM play style is ideal for Odyn with all the movement and dodging. Ideally a hunter would play BM for the first two bosses and MM for Heyla.

Odyn is also a fight that highlights pet position is important to doing good dps.

The only thing you added to the conversation was an attempt to belittle people.

I don't even, you're so wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. WHY WOULD YOU PLAY BM on fucking Guarm. The fight is not much movement if you do it correctly, and Odyn, you can cleave all fight long. Shit Odyn has little movement, learn to manage your spec.

As for going more dmg, no fukcing shit, people who play BM at mythic and kills it are decent. and so is the MM hunters. But when you have SEVERAL times more of MM logs you'll also have several time more shitters.

[Banard]

hahahahahahahahah that's funny as fuck. you're so far gone it's not even worth discussing anything with you. so funny what low level raiders come up with to justify their tribalistic attraction to a certain spec.

logs illustrate what i state as simple as that. MM will parse higher but on average BM does better on the first two fights.

"low level raiders" There you go again, someone is in there epeen basement. /mom! /mom! /bathroom! Your a very angry person. You should address that.

As i stated before, i play BM because its the best option out of three shitty specs. MM is only good on two fights in all of EN and ToV and that's eye and Heyla. Simple as that.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't even, you're so wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. WHY WOULD YOU PLAY BM on fucking Guarm. The fight is not much movement if you do it correctly, and Odyn, you can cleave all fight long. Shit Odyn has little movement, learn to manage your spec.

As for going more dmg, no fukcing shit, people who play BM at mythic and kills it are decent. and so is the MM hunters. But when you have SEVERAL times more of MM logs you'll also have several time more shitters.

As i sad MM parses higher but on average BM does better. There is a difference. Talking about the # of loggers and and "more shitters" is very anecdotal way of looking at things. If we want to go down that road BM has the whole petopia care bear crowd and more "shitters" then any spec in the game. Its the spec that coin "Huntard"

I'll put it another way...i am a moron....i suck....but if i can be in the 400k-420k range on M Odyn ....then imagine what a good player can do in the same gear.

Its as simple as that.