MM vs BM PVE in 7.1.5

[Yizu]

LOL its just funny how some people here thinks playing MM is brain surgery. Lets not kid ourselves

[Banard]

I'm just going to leave this here. I'm beyond tired of arguing with people so lazy and delusional they don't even know how their spec works while bragging about how they can "triple their DPS" with shit handled with a pet macro. Banard, you aren't just wrong. You're fractally wrong. You're wrong on every premise of every argument leading to every conclusion you have. It's sad.

What macro uses the move ability from a pet? Link it. As i said the "triple dps" was me exaggerated but proper pet management on cleave fights is the difference between your pet attacking 1-2 targets and 4-6. This is due to the pets default position being "behind" your current target. Its not bragging its highlighting a portion of the spec people ignore or trivialise.

/pet attack macro don't work because then you are cleaving off the wrong target....so please post the pet move macro? I have never saw one before. If one existed i'll start using it. Even if there is one, key bind in, you still have to place that "green circle"
somewhere.

Guess i need to look in the sims a bit more, i do not have 40% downtime ...far from it, maybe its due to my shitty stats, i have far less mastery then hunters at my ilevel but ya can only do what ya can with what the RNG gives ya....and the RNG loves giving me 890-895 gear with crit on it.

It still has 0 impact on the argument. And as i said previous, the BM vs MM argument needs to stop. The whole fucking class is shit at the moment. All three specs have had better versions in previous xpac. ALL THREE SPECS suck. But both BM and MM are viable for raiding. Surv...well just grab another melee there are only 20 more to choose from (more exaggeration).

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LOL its just funny how some people here thinks playing MM is brain surgery. Lets not kid ourselves

Its hilarious, its not like any spec in this game is complex...but that's the MM hunters fall back and its been that way for over a decade. "MM is more complex its the best spec bleh bleh bleh bleh"

god i miss the old surv spec. Instant cast and dots...that i liked.

[ridiculous87]

First off, I wasn't meaning to kinda attack you specifically, so sorry for poor wording on my part. I have less of a problem with you thinking BM will be closer to MM next patch, viable, and maybe better for some bosses. All the reasons you listed support that as well. My problem was more so to do with other people misconstruing what you said. For example when you say "i'm swapping my loot spec to BM" something like 90% of people hear that and translate it to "BM is better next patch". This isn't really your fault, and there's no way to help it really. But I was trying to explain to people that what you said doesnt mean you think BM will be better, and MM will be shit, which the person i was replying to seemed to think you said. The command on your stream seems more carefully worded and I don't really have a problem with it.

For a possible counterpoint, I think currently the damage buffs that BM gains next patch are less significant than the damage increases MM gains, Yes it probably requires every trueshot synergy, but it seems likely that If you do have most of them, that MM will exceed BM. I also don't necessarily agree that MM is less mobile if you have the legendary gloves etc, but that's of course another "required" legendary for MM, which is a potential downside and may swing the tables towards BM if you don't have it for some extremely high movement fights.

Nice try, but you're actually just a know it all with a chip on your should (you and mega act like hunter gods in every thread you post in, it's laughable).

My original post (which I assume you're at least partially referencing above) was more or less exactly what rogerbrown said in his post, but with way less detail. Not once did I say "rogerbrown switched his loot spec to BM, everyone go BM!!".

Yes, PTR changes are not complete yet, and so opinions are being formed off the current PTR iteration. Yes, that can change, but until it does I will continue to take my information from people who have actually played on the PTR and in cutting edge content, not from people like you or Megataco777. Appealing to authority? No, appealing to people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about, not ego-maniacs like you two. *drops mic*

[Azortharion]

Certain Hunters from the top 5-10 guilds now were deep in the Beast Mastery kool-aid for Mythic+ and raiding alike just before Legion dropped, and we all know how that worked out. Where/how much someone plays has little little to do with whether they know what they are talking about.

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Nice try, but you're actually just a know it all with a chip on your should (you and mega act like hunter gods in every thread you post in, it's laughable).

My original post (which I assume you're at least partially referencing above) was more or less exactly what rogerbrown said in his post, but with way less detail. Not once did I say "rogerbrown switched his loot spec to BM, everyone go BM!!".

Yes, PTR changes are not complete yet, and so opinions are being formed off the current PTR iteration. Yes, that can change, but until it does I will continue to take my information from people who have actually played on the PTR and in cutting edge content, not from people like you or Megataco777. Appealing to authority? No, appealing to people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about, not ego-maniacs like you two. *drops mic*

Lol, you seem a bit buttmad.

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Azortharion is pretty bias towards the spec and sorry you can't macro pet control. There is nothing in his guide about pet POSITING.

Biased..? I don't even know where to start. Lol.

You can macro pet control. In fact, you can achieve almost perfect pet "control" with macros alone.

[Kirbypro]

Controlling pet movement outside of just macroing "petattack" to Kill Command doesn't give any overall dps boost.

What it does is give you more dps on priority target by sacrificing dps on the current target if you move your pet to where the priority target will spawn, e.g. Hyrja and Hymdall on M Odyn.

[Arrol]

Nice try, but you're actually just a know it all with a chip on your should (you and mega act like hunter gods in every thread you post in, it's laughable).

My original post (which I assume you're at least partially referencing above) was more or less exactly what rogerbrown said in his post, but with way less detail. Not once did I say "rogerbrown switched his loot spec to BM, everyone go BM!!".

Yes, PTR changes are not complete yet, and so opinions are being formed off the current PTR iteration. Yes, that can change, but until it does I will continue to take my information from people who have actually played on the PTR and in cutting edge content, not from people like you or Megataco777. Appealing to authority? No, appealing to people who actually know what the fuck they're talking about, not ego-maniacs like you two. *drops mic*

I've actually played and tested the spec on PTR aswell, There's literally no way for you to know whether I have or not but you're assuming I haven't for some reason. I've left my feedback in the blizz forums in the thread several times.

No Roger did not say "mroe of less exactly" what you said in his post. You said, and I quote "Who have said that MM is shit in 7.1.5 and BM will be better in Nighthold"
Roger basically said, both specs are close and he isnt sure but is preparing for both situations. You are the exact purpose of my original post, you are taking the wrong conclusion from rogers words.

It's funny that you call me a know it all (as if not knowing anything is better than knowing them) and then also say I don't know what i'm talking about (which you supplied no counter evidence for) And yet i'm the ego maniac while you're smug af proud of yourself dropping a mic in text.

[Madwolf]

I'm just going to leave this here. I'm beyond tired of arguing with people so lazy and delusional they don't even know how their spec works while bragging about how they can "triple their DPS" with shit handled with a pet macro. Banard, you aren't just wrong. You're fractally wrong. You're wrong on every premise of every argument leading to every conclusion you have. It's sad.

So let's talk about this really fast. This graph assumes an awful lot. Since this is clearly a single target fight, which we want to optimize for, lets poke some holes.
- It doesn't add up to 5 minutes (300 seconds)
- It assumes we have nearly 0 haste
- It assumes we have 0 crit chance
- Where is Bestial Wrath?
- Where is Aspect of the Wild?
- Where is Titan's Thunder?
- Where is Dire Frenzy? (over Dire Beast)
- AMoC's time is wrong. It appears your multiplying the button strikes in 5 minutes over the default global cooldown (1.5). So 7.5
- Dire Beasts time is wrong. It should be 37.5
- Kill Commands time is wrong. It should be 60.
- Cobra Shot is hard to calculate off the top of my head. It seems about right.
- Dire Beast would bring the cooldown of Beastial Wrath down to 54 seconds without procs. So Bestial Wrath would use 7.5secs.
- Dire Beast would proc about 6 times on that fight on average bringing it's time up to 46.5
- This would mean Bestial Wrath would lose another 60 seconds of CD. This basically means that it will get an extra 15 seconds off every cool down and 30 on another. So BW would be used 7 times instead of 5. Meaning 10.5secs.
- Aspect of the Wild would be 3secs, being used twice.
- Titan's Thunder would be 7.5secs, being used 5 times.

So assuming cobra shot stays the same it would be down to 104 seconds. So 34.7% downtime with no haste.
If we act like you're we have procs it goes off 92 seconds. So 30.7% downtime

Not a massive improvement on the 40% time, but if you factor in 15% haste, it will help a lot. I assumed 30% crit for the auto-shots, which would be your average 870ilvl BM Hunter.

If you add in Chimera shot you're looking at shaving another 49.5 seconds off. Which would bring it down to 14.1% down time. Which seems pretty much like reality to me.

[ridiculous87]

I've actually played and tested the spec on PTR aswell, There's literally no way for you to know whether I have or not but you're assuming I haven't for some reason. I've left my feedback in the blizz forums in the thread several times.

No Roger did not say "mroe of less exactly" what you said in his post. You said, and I quote "Who have said that MM is shit in 7.1.5 and BM will be better in Nighthold"
Roger basically said, both specs are close and he isnt sure but is preparing for both situations. You are the exact purpose of my original post, you are taking the wrong conclusion from rogers words.

It's funny that you call me a know it all (as if not knowing anything is better than knowing them) and then also say I don't know what i'm talking about (which you supplied no counter evidence for) And yet i'm the ego maniac while you're smug af proud of yourself dropping a mic in text.

I think you missed an important part from my post that you quoted:

"Who have said that MM is shit in 7.1.5 and BM will be better in Nighthold on any fight with movement"

but yea, keep quoting me completely out of context to fit your narrative. Hah.

[Arrol]

So let's talk about this really fast. This graph assumes an awful lot. Since this is clearly a single target fight, which we want to optimize for, lets poke some holes.
- It doesn't add up to 5 minutes (300 seconds)
- It assumes we have nearly 0 haste
- It assumes we have 0 crit chance
- Where is Bestial Wrath?
- Where is Aspect of the Wild?
- Where is Titan's Thunder?
- Where is Dire Frenzy? (over Dire Beast)
- AMoC's time is wrong. It appears your multiplying the button strikes in 5 minutes over the default global cooldown (1.5). So 7.5
- Dire Beasts time is wrong. It should be 37.5
- Kill Commands time is wrong. It should be 60.
- Cobra Shot is hard to calculate off the top of my head. It seems about right.
- Dire Beast would bring the cooldown of Beastial Wrath down to 54 seconds without procs. So Bestial Wrath would use 7.5secs.
- Dire Beast would proc about 6 times on that fight on average bringing it's time up to 46.5
- This would mean Bestial Wrath would lose another 60 seconds of CD. This basically means that it will get an extra 15 seconds off every cool down and 30 on another. So BW would be used 7 times instead of 5. Meaning 10.5secs.
- Aspect of the Wild would be 3secs, being used twice.
- Titan's Thunder would be 7.5secs, being used 5 times.

So assuming cobra shot stays the same it would be down to 104 seconds. So 34.7% downtime with no haste.
If we act like you're we have procs it goes off 92 seconds. So 30.7% downtime

Not a massive improvement on the 40% time, but if you factor in 15% haste, it will help a lot. I assumed 30% crit for the auto-shots, which would be your average 870ilvl BM Hunter.

If you add in Chimera shot you're looking at shaving another 49.5 seconds off. Which would bring it down to 14.1% down time. Which seems pretty much like reality to me.

Sims have variable fight length.
You have no way of seeing how much haste this sim has.
You have no way of seeing how much crit this sim has.
Beastial wrath doesnt do direct damage.
Aspect of the wild doesnt do direct damage.
Titans thunder deals direct damage, but is off the GCD, so it adds 0 time spent to your rotation.
it likely does use dire frenzy, the damage will still display as dire beast.
The variable fight length is why AMoC has a strange time number, it is averaging the varied fight lengths where it is cast sometimes more than others.
Variable fight length for dire beast
Variable fight length of Kill Command
Varaible fight length for cobra shots
Variable fight length and RNG procs on Dire Beast would not make Beastial wrath have a consistent number ever.
Variable Fight Length for # of dire beast procs
Variable fight length for number of beastial wrath uses and RNG procs from dire beast again aswell
Variable fight length for aspect of the wild
variable fight length for titams thunder

You have no idea how sims work and basically everything you think is wrong with that image likely isnt wrong, and has an explanation. There's also no reason to add in chimaera shot since you never use that talent currently. You're just artifically lowering the downtime when you'll never use it ingame.

[vapinarrow]

Controlling pet movement outside of just macroing "petattack" to Kill Command doesn't give any overall dps boost.

What it does is give you more dps on priority target by sacrificing dps on the current target if you move your pet to where the priority target will spawn, e.g. Hyrja and Hymdall on M Odyn.

Ok sorry but this is not correct, the reason we keybind pet move is because the swipe of the pets from beast cleave. You want to make sure they are positioned in the center of the group not off to 1 side where they cant reach the far side with basic attacks... This is mostly important if the adds are in a semicircle around the tank instead of stacked.

[Megotaku77]

You have no idea how sims work and basically everything you think is wrong with that image likely isnt wrong, and has an explanation.

QFT. I keep saying it because it keeps being demonstrated as absolutely true: the reality denial of BM hunters is overwhelming. Every time another BM fanboy enters the picture, it's just another ill-informed, woefully mistaken post that only further spreads bad information to cater to the growing religion of BM.

So message to the BM hunters. If you want to advocate for your spec follow these guidelines:

1) Stop being wrong. About everything, always. Be like a broken clock, right at least twice a day purely by accident.
2) Stop being reductionist about specs that have far more depth and player interactivity than yours. You look extremely stupid when you say with a straight face MM is just as easy to play well as BM. I don't know what circle-jerk you're frequenting where people are reinforcing this ideology, but to everyone else you look dumb as hell. Oh and just to be clear, that doesn't imply even slightly that MM requires Ph.D in nuclear physics to play well, it's an indictment of just how little skill your spec actually takes.
3) Stop trying to argue against empirical data with sophistry. It only works when preaching to your echo chamber and doesn't convince anyone else that you're actually right. Some people call me a "dick", but begrudgingly admit I make valid arguments. The same isn't said about you. Ever.

[Kaizenberg]

I think a lot of people are missing the reason MM was such a superior spec in the current raid tier.

1. Utility. We had both a MM and BM Hunter during our EN progression. If I had a nickle every time I heard "But my Misdirect isn't as good" from our BM Hunter I could probably retire to The Keys. At the start of the expansion we had numerous wipes to random spiders getting to Elerethe or stray adds on Cenarius when it was BMs turn to MD.

2. Spread Cleave. Marks currently can cleave everything on screen regardless of positon. Even if they are lower DPS overall their ability to hit every important add on the map is incredibly important. Two note-able examples are spirts / horrors on Nightmare Dragons and slimes on Helya. On fights like Dragons boss damage is important but quickly dispatching multiple, spread adds is far more important therefore its ok for them to be lower on damage as long as their damage is high during add spawns.

BM Hunters aren't competing with Marksmen in raids. They have to compete with other classes and roles that perform a different DPS niche. No one says "We need more single target damage, let's bring a hunter!". You get an Enhance Shaman or Frost DK. For 2-3 close cleave fights you don't ask for a Hunter, you get a Destro Lock or a Fire Mage. To my point, if BM is going to be more viable in raids they have to bring substantially more damage than Marksmen. The utility and niche Marksmenship fills is so unique that its in a league of its own.

[Deleted]

I admit I do miss the old survival.. multishot applying serpent sting and LnL proccing a barrage of explosive shots... that was by far my favourite spec ever in WoW... such a shame they ravaged it I suppose it's sort of there in Survival still, except Serpent Sting sucks balls now and explosive shot is a static dot that is pointless ifthe target moves

[Jurassic]

I have tested most of nighthold, I think the best thing to do is get both Artifacts to 35 because there are some fights that clearly favor MM and some fights that clearly favor BM and be prepared to swap specs from fight to fight. Keep your loot spec static until you get two throughput legendaries then swap the loot spec to the other and rinse and repeat.

BTW get ready to eat cake BM hunters.

[Madwolf]

QFT. I keep saying it because it keeps being demonstrated as absolutely true: the reality denial of BM hunters is overwhelming. Every time another BM fanboy enters the picture, it's just another ill-informed, woefully mistaken post that only further spreads bad information to cater to the growing religion of BM.

So message to the BM hunters. If you want to advocate for your spec follow these guidelines:

1) Stop being wrong. About everything, always. Be like a broken clock, right at least twice a day purely by accident.
2) Stop being reductionist about specs that have far more depth and player interactivity than yours. You look extremely stupid when you say with a straight face MM is just as easy to play well as BM. I don't know what circle-jerk you're frequenting where people are reinforcing this ideology, but to everyone else you look dumb as hell. Oh and just to be clear, that doesn't imply even slightly that MM requires Ph.D in nuclear physics to play well, it's an indictment of just how little skill your spec actually takes.
3) Stop trying to argue against empirical data with sophistry. It only works when preaching to your echo chamber and doesn't convince anyone else that you're actually right. Some people call me a "dick", but begrudgingly admit I make valid arguments. The same isn't said about you. Ever.

Blah, blah, blah.

Your entire argument boils down to picking the talents that make BM the simplest version to play it could possible be, and ignoring every ability that doesn't fit into your perfect little Patchwork fantasy fight.

Marksmanship isn't a hard 'rotation.' It's basically your opening sequence and then playing wack-a-mole based on priority. That's how every class is really. You either have a set rotation, or an opening sequence and play wack-a-mole by knowing cool-down and priorities.

You're never going to be rewarded for your 'opinion' on what is the most difficult specialization to play, that's not how this works. The goal is to make everyone viable and within a good range of each other on all fights.

We're all Hunters here. There is nothing that makes Survival, Beast Mastery, or Marksmanship better than the other in terms of the people playing them. If you're going to sit here and constantly try and divide the group because of your a superiority complex then perhaps you shouldn't be here.

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Certain Hunters from the top 5-10 guilds now were deep in the Beast Mastery kool-aid for Mythic+ and raiding alike just before Legion dropped, and we all know how that worked out. Where/how much someone plays has little little to do with whether they know what they are talking about.

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Lol, you seem a bit buttmad.

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Biased..? I don't even know where to start. Lol.

You can macro pet control. In fact, you can achieve almost perfect pet "control" with macros alone.

Hey Azo, loved your guide on Icy-Viens, but I still stuck with Chimera Shot because it made the spec more fun and flow better.

If it was up to you, what changes would you make to Beast Mastery so that, regardless of talent selection, it would have a more fun level of 'rotation' to play in it's base form.

[Megotaku77]

Your entire argument boils down to picking the talents that make BM the simplest version to play it could possible be, and ignoring every ability that doesn't fit into your perfect little Patchwork fantasy fight.

You have to be trolling. No one could seriously say with a straight face "your argument just boils down to BM hunters using talents that provide the highest DPS gains!" and then think they've made a point. Are you serious with this shit?

Let me help remind you of the the 3 pieces of advice I provided:

1) Stop being wrong. About everything, always. Be like a broken clock, right at least twice a day purely by accident.
2) Stop being reductionist about specs that have far more depth and player interactivity than yours. You look extremely stupid when you say with a straight face MM is just as easy to play well as BM. I don't know what circle-jerk you're frequenting where people are reinforcing this ideology, but to everyone else you look dumb as hell. Oh and just to be clear, that doesn't imply even slightly that MM requires Ph.D in nuclear physics to play well, it's an indictment of just how little skill your spec actually takes.
3) Stop trying to argue against empirical data with sophistry. It only works when preaching to your echo chamber and doesn't convince anyone else that you're actually right. Some people call me a "dick", but begrudgingly admit I make valid arguments. The same isn't said about you. Ever.

[Kirbypro]

Ok sorry but this is not correct, the reason we keybind pet move is because the swipe of the pets from beast cleave. You want to make sure they are positioned in the center of the group not off to 1 side where they cant reach the far side with basic attacks... This is mostly important if the adds are in a semicircle around the tank instead of stacked.

Hasn't been a fight so far where that mattered but maybe it could help with a council style fight. There's only two positions that pets attack from. rear-left, rear-right. So you're just switching between those two positions. If you have two target, you can pet attack between those two targets until you find a good place. Also, I don't use petmove command because Hati is buggy and won't move properly. I use /petpassive /petfollow and move myself to where the pets need to be. That works 100% of the time whereas /petmove is a piece of crap spell.

The utility and niche Marksmenship fills is so unique that its in a league of its own.

Press MD, press Barrage...ok. You don't need MD on spider boss if you 3 tanked and your raid members weren't so bad they don't notice they are face tanking a spider and don't bring it to the tanks. Barrage is getting buffed for BM in 7.1.5 so in terms of this topic your point is irrelevant. If BM really needs to MD and it is crucial for a NH fight, they will take barrage.

[Taxiforholinka]

So let's talk about this really fast. This graph assumes an awful lot. Since this is clearly a single target fight, which we want to optimize for, lets poke some holes.
- It doesn't add up to 5 minutes (300 seconds)
- It assumes we have nearly 0 haste
- It assumes we have 0 crit chance
- Where is Bestial Wrath?
- Where is Aspect of the Wild?
- Where is Titan's Thunder?
- Where is Dire Frenzy? (over Dire Beast)
- AMoC's time is wrong. It appears your multiplying the button strikes in 5 minutes over the default global cooldown (1.5). So 7.5
- Dire Beasts time is wrong. It should be 37.5
- Kill Commands time is wrong. It should be 60.
- Cobra Shot is hard to calculate off the top of my head. It seems about right.
- Dire Beast would bring the cooldown of Beastial Wrath down to 54 seconds without procs. So Bestial Wrath would use 7.5secs.
- Dire Beast would proc about 6 times on that fight on average bringing it's time up to 46.5
- This would mean Bestial Wrath would lose another 60 seconds of CD. This basically means that it will get an extra 15 seconds off every cool down and 30 on another. So BW would be used 7 times instead of 5. Meaning 10.5secs.
- Aspect of the Wild would be 3secs, being used twice.
- Titan's Thunder would be 7.5secs, being used 5 times.

So assuming cobra shot stays the same it would be down to 104 seconds. So 34.7% downtime with no haste.
If we act like you're we have procs it goes off 92 seconds. So 30.7% downtime

Not a massive improvement on the 40% time, but if you factor in 15% haste, it will help a lot. I assumed 30% crit for the auto-shots, which would be your average 870ilvl BM Hunter.

If you add in Chimera shot you're looking at shaving another 49.5 seconds off. Which would bring it down to 14.1% down time. Which seems pretty much like reality to me.

As far as I'm aware this sim has been pulled off the simulationcraft website and the gear listed implies 16% haste, 18% crit and 93% mastery (give or take) at 885ilvl. The wait time seems in line with what you'd expect for a BM hunter (although pretty high compared to my sims), but bear in mind, the legendary belt makes a huge difference to wait time (current patch when i sim my own char which sits at a 26% wait time on a ~450s fight, 34% wait time without belt) and also that sim uses big game hunter -which will reduce focus generation- which is why I think people are looking at the graph in disbelief because 40% wait time seems exaggerated depending on the player and his gear.

[Ravenzedd]

So let's talk about this really fast. This graph assumes an awful lot. Since this is clearly a single target fight, which we want to optimize for, lets poke some holes.
- It doesn't add up to 5 minutes (300 seconds)
- It assumes we have nearly 0 haste
- It assumes we have 0 crit chance
- Where is Bestial Wrath?
- Where is Aspect of the Wild?
- Where is Titan's Thunder?
- Where is Dire Frenzy? (over Dire Beast)
- AMoC's time is wrong. It appears your multiplying the button strikes in 5 minutes over the default global cooldown (1.5). So 7.5
- Dire Beasts time is wrong. It should be 37.5
- Kill Commands time is wrong. It should be 60.
- Cobra Shot is hard to calculate off the top of my head. It seems about right.
- Dire Beast would bring the cooldown of Beastial Wrath down to 54 seconds without procs. So Bestial Wrath would use 7.5secs.
- Dire Beast would proc about 6 times on that fight on average bringing it's time up to 46.5
- This would mean Bestial Wrath would lose another 60 seconds of CD. This basically means that it will get an extra 15 seconds off every cool down and 30 on another. So BW would be used 7 times instead of 5. Meaning 10.5secs.
- Aspect of the Wild would be 3secs, being used twice.
- Titan's Thunder would be 7.5secs, being used 5 times.

So assuming cobra shot stays the same it would be down to 104 seconds. So 34.7% downtime with no haste.
If we act like you're we have procs it goes off 92 seconds. So 30.7% downtime

Not a massive improvement on the 40% time, but if you factor in 15% haste, it will help a lot. I assumed 30% crit for the auto-shots, which would be your average 870ilvl BM Hunter.

If you add in Chimera shot you're looking at shaving another 49.5 seconds off. Which would bring it down to 14.1% down time. Which seems pretty much like reality to me.

So much of this is wrong that it actually hurts to read. Titans/Aspect/BW all on the GCD right?

It's amazing how somebody can start the post so condescendingly with 'So let's talk about this really fast. This graph assumes an awful lot. Since this is clearly a single target fight, which we want to optimize for, lets poke some holes.' and be so catastrophically wrong on the majority of points.

[dethstalker]

*casting aimed shot* is fucking outdated. Holy shit are we playing caster class?

Without the legendaries listed it does feel as if we are being turned into a caster class.