Clinton won popular vote because of one single state?

[Huulo]

Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment (1868) later superseded Article 1, Section 2, Clause 3 and explicitly repealed the compromise. It provides that "representatives shall be apportioned ... counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed." A later provision of the same clause reduced the Congressional representation of states who denied the right to vote to adult male citizens, but this provision was never effectively enforced.
Citation.
Happy being completely wrong?

Do you know how a census is done? Do you really think they're counting undocumented workers? Typically, poor people are LESS likely to be counted because the census takers often simply can't find them.

By the way, do you have any evidence that more than 10-12 people committed voter fraud this year? Other than simply saying "yes there is?" And no, one case of a Trump voter voting twice and then getting arrested for it doesn't count. This matters because, like the transgender bathroom issue, it has no basis in reality but is often used to inspire fear and hatred in voters.

[Deleted]

Do you know how a census is done? Do you really think they're counting undocumented workers? Typically, poor people are LESS likely to be counted because the census takers often simply can't find them.

So less likely means only half of the illegals were counted or?, Whatever number picked is less than zero.
But they are counted.

The census counts every person regardless of immigration status. The census is extremely important for documenting the growth of immigrant communities, allocating resources for needed services, and identifying areas where civil rights enforcement may be needed.

Immigrant communities are at higher risk for being undercounted and require special attention to ensure an accurate count. Community-based organizations can play a key role in helping immigrants understand the importance of being counted and overcoming reluctance to participate.

Some immigrants distrust or fear the federal government, especially in light of recent raids and deportations. Undocumented immigrants and families that include undocumented individuals may fear that providing information to census takers will compromise their safety and security.

Some may think it is illegal for undocumented immigrants to participate in the census, as it would be for them to register or vote. Others may worry that statistics about growing immigrant communities, or information about the number of people living in a single household, will lead to a backlash from anti-immigrant activists or local officials, or enforcement action from landlords or housing authorities.

By the way, do you have any evidence that more than 10-12 people committed voter fraud this year?

As i have never said anything about voting, this is not germane.

Other than simply saying "yes there is?" And no, one case of a Trump voter voting twice and then getting arrested for it doesn't count.

If one asserts it cannot happen, therefore no ID required, then the existence of even singular cases undermines that argument.

This matters because, like the transgender bathroom issue, it has no basis in reality but is often used to inspire fear and hatred in voters.

The transgender bathroom issue has nothing to do with transgender people, it has to do with a statutory mandate for anyone, at any time, going into Any bathroom.

[Spectral]

Oh I agree, I doubt that the Illegals slanted the vote in any meaningful way, lets say 1/10 voted, clearly at the upper end of "plausible" and 8/10 voted for democrats, that's still only 8-900 000 votes spread out over a dozen states, maybe there are scenarios where those matter, but realistically (especially given the implausibly high numbers of illegals voting) they didn't matter, and don't really matter either.

The only work I'm aware of that even tried to meaningfully address this was by Richman et al:

Original source for the claim, abstract only.

Link to full paper.

A Washington Post article from the author that addresses critics of the work.

I'm in no position to evaluate the technical merits of the claims, counterclaims, and criticisms on either side of this. What I do know is that the utter belligerence with which people insist that we know this isn't happening seems silly to me and not based on much evidence at all. We haven't really caught much of anyone doing this, but we also don't actually try to catch anyone doing it, especially in the states where it's likely to be the most common.

Another thing I'm fairly confident of is that when people make claims along the lines of "this literally never happens", they're really obviously wrong. Think about it - even if pretty much everyone is well intentioned and not trying to commit election fraud, wouldn't you figure that at least a few people that are ineligible to vote due to citizenship, immigration status, or felonies would accidentally vote just because they weren't aware of what the appropriate laws were? That a country with a hundred million people voting isn't catching anyone doing this accidentally suggests to me that we mostly don't look very hard.

I think it's reasonable to guess that a few hundred thousand illegal votes are likely cast in each election. The standard error on this guess is pretty big, but it's going to be a better guess than, "this literally never happens".

[SirBeef]

When people say 'voter fraud isn't an issue', it generally means that the instances are so rare as to be negligible.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes, as they say. Quite frankly I'd rather we skip the mess and just shift to automatic registration and mail-in voting.

I have never met anyone who says voter fraud is not an issue that actually believes that 0 illegal votes were cast. It's just the amount is so statistically insignificant It is not a problem.

[Deleted]

Except she has 3.3 million more votes than Trump in California, more than what she has over Trump nationally.

So yes, she did win the popular vote because of a single state, and that's not even counting how many illegals voted.

I really need to stop visiting this board, the incredible amount of stupidity displayed is astounding.

The bottom line is that Hillary Clinton won the popular vote. It was not because of California, it was because MORE AMERICANS voted for her.

[Spectral]

I have never met anyone who says voter fraud is not an issue that actually believes that 0 illegal votes were cast. It's just the amount is so statistically insignificant It is not a problem.

I've never met anyone who says voter fraud isn't a problem that bothered to do much reading on it other than whatever piece of Voxsplaining told them how to sound very knowledgeable at parties.

[cubby]

Jesus H. Christ. The mental gymnastics in here...

First off, the EC isn't giving more power to any little states. Once in the last 116 years the EC has been close enough for states with 5 or less EVs to actually matter.

And even then, in that Election, it came down to a state with 29 EVs that determined that election

The little states matter jack-all. What matters are what are considered battle-ground states.

The fact our candidates only need to care about a handful if states is a tragedy.

The fact that if you're in a state that is solidly Red or Blue on a presidential ticket (which is most states) means your vote really doesn't count is a tragedy.

People complain about voter turnout and the EC is one of those reasons. How many more Republican Californians or Democrat Texans would turn out if they knew their vote would actually count toward the presidential race?

This is something we don't know, but what we do know, is that if we went with popular votes over EVs, only twice in the last 116 years would it have made a difference in the final result.

Face it, Trump was/is a shit candidate who got propped up by Russians and the FBI.

Exactly - a popular vote would mean your vote would count every time - even if you're in a state like AL which consistently goes red.

(and well said above)

[Huulo]

So less likely means only half of the illegals were counted or?, Whatever number picked is less than zero.
But they are counted.


As i have never said anything about voting, this is not germane.

If one asserts it cannot happen, therefore no ID required, then the existence of even singular cases undermines that argument.


The transgender bathroom issue has nothing to do with transgender people, it has to do with a statutory mandate for anyone, at any time, going into Any bathroom.

Once again, you completely miss the point. One or two or even 10 cases is far different from winning. If you see someone win the lottery on TV, do you think you should go out and spend your life savings on lottery tickets. Would you reason that millions of people could all win the lottery, thus ending poverty? For all you know I could have assassinated JFK, but with no evidence to support it you have nothing. The point of voter fraud, like transgender bathrooms, is to generate fear over an imagined threat that does not exist in reality.

Here's reality: there are very few cases of voter fraud every election, and they typically result in arrests, thus invalidating your point.

Now here's the reality of trans-gender bathrooms: there have been 3 arrests of people going into the "wrong" bathroom since the hysteria began. In all cases, they were women using the women's room. Not even trans-woman, but cis-women who were mistaken for men.

BTW, do you have any evidence at all that the electoral votes awarded to California are too high due to undocumented workers? Can you site an example of an undocumented worker being counted in the census?

- - - Updated - - -

I think it's reasonable to guess that a few hundred thousand illegal votes are likely cast in each election. The standard error on this guess is pretty big, but it's going to be a better guess than, "this literally never happens".

There were a few arrests made for voter fraud this year, they just aren't very common. Keep in mind, you have to be registered to vote.

[Spectral]

There were a few arrests made for voter fraud this year, they just aren't very common. Keep in mind, you have to be registered to vote.

This is like a case study in deliberately ignoring substantive content.

[Huulo]

This is like a case study in deliberately ignoring substantive content.

Care to elaborate? These are facts. Cases of voter fraud are extremely rare, about 10 for one billion ballots cast since 2000:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...tning-or-peop/

Is there something I'm missing or do my facts conflict with your chosen reality?

[Al Gorefiend]

If we selected presidents by popular vote, future primaries and hopefuls will dump millions into CA, TX, FL and NY and won't even tour the low pop States like Wyoming and North Dakota.

[Huulo]

It's worth noting that a vote in Wyoming is worth 3 times what a vote in my state is:

http://archive.fairvote.org/?page=985

Doesn't strike me as particularly fair or democratic. Even if you don't support abolishing the electoral college, don't you think it might be time to re-balance it?

WoW analogy: Maybe it's ok for rogues to do 10-15% more damage than ret pallies (although many would say it's not), but 2-3 times as much is definitely wrong.

[Al Gorefiend]

It's worth noting that a vote in Wyoming is worth 3 times what a vote in my state is:

http://archive.fairvote.org/?page=985

Doesn't strike me as particularly fair or democratic. Even if you don't support abolishing the electoral college, don't you think it might be time to re-balance it?

WoW analogy: Maybe it's ok for rogues to do 10-15% more damage than ret pallies (although many would say it's not), but 2-3 times as much is definitely wrong.

But then, what incentive do politicians have to visit Cheyenne when they can just visit Los Angeles to reach 10x the amount of attendance?

[Spectral]

Care to elaborate? These are facts. Cases of voter fraud are extremely rare, about 10 for one billion ballots cast since 2000:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/...tning-or-peop/

Is there something I'm missing or do my facts conflict with your chosen reality?

I guess I'll just quote the post you elected to ignore:

The only work I'm aware of that even tried to meaningfully address this was by Richman et al:

Original source for the claim, abstract only.

Link to full paper.

A Washington Post article from the author that addresses critics of the work.

I'm in no position to evaluate the technical merits of the claims, counterclaims, and criticisms on either side of this. What I do know is that the utter belligerence with which people insist that we know this isn't happening seems silly to me and not based on much evidence at all. We haven't really caught much of anyone doing this, but we also don't actually try to catch anyone doing it, especially in the states where it's likely to be the most common.

Another thing I'm fairly confident of is that when people make claims along the lines of "this literally never happens", they're really obviously wrong. Think about it - even if pretty much everyone is well intentioned and not trying to commit election fraud, wouldn't you figure that at least a few people that are ineligible to vote due to citizenship, immigration status, or felonies would accidentally vote just because they weren't aware of what the appropriate laws were? That a country with a hundred million people voting isn't catching anyone doing this accidentally suggests to me that we mostly don't look very hard.

I think it's reasonable to guess that a few hundred thousand illegal votes are likely cast in each election. The standard error on this guess is pretty big, but it's going to be a better guess than, "this literally never happens".

I appreciate your absurd use of "my facts" and "[my] chosen reality". This really is pretty funny - the chances that you know more or have bothered to do more research than me are infinitesimal. Reflexive linking to Politifact and spouting the same standard cliches ("ten in a billion!") makes that pretty clear.

[Huulo]

I guess I'll just quote the post you elected to ignore:

I appreciate your absurd use of "my facts" and "[my] chosen reality". This really is pretty funny - the chances that you know more or have bothered to do more research than me are infinitesimal. Reflexive linking to Politifact and spouting the same standard cliches ("ten in a billion!") makes that pretty clear.

I read the study you posted. While interesting, it has some pretty serious flaws in that it relies on survey data. Given how many state governments are Republican controlled, why haven't they gone through the registered voter lists to identify registered non-citizens? Surely it wouldn't be hard to do given the amount of political energy already being applied to this issue. BTW, what you call a "standard cliche" is actually just a fact. As another example, there have been two identified cases of voter fraud in Texas for 20 million ballots. And yes, while the study is interesting and certainly merits further investigation, it's not nearly as important as the facts at hand.

[zenkai]

California didn't cast 65,000,000 votes in favor of Hillary Clinton, so no, she didn't win the popular vote because of one state.

WOW, just wow...

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Of course not.

But maybe...

[Kioshi]

This is still going on? She lost its over, nothing left to do but go back to World of Warcraft like you all did during the last few president election. Just get over it people, nothing you do now is going to matter, life moves on.

[Huulo]

But then, what incentive do politicians have to visit Cheyenne when they can just visit Los Angeles to reach 10x the amount of attendance?

They'll still want to come out to rural areas at least to avoid the label of "big city elitist." If they do have an incentive to help 100 people more than they do to help 10, we shouldn't be fixing that by giving some people 3 times as much voting power. 15% more I could understand, but such a large gap was never intended when the EC was made.

[alturic]

I have never met anyone who says voter fraud is not an issue that actually believes that 0 illegal votes were cast. It's just the amount is so statistically insignificant It is not a problem.

See, this bothers me. There should be everything possible done to ensure there is next to zero chance someone not authorized to vote, votes.