Am I supposed to be taking ~35% more damage than the War/Pally tank?

[Saverem]

I know they are mitigation tanks and are designed to take less damage over all. But I'm taking about 35% more damage while also barely either squeeking ahead or falling a bit behind on healing done.

We are designed to take more damage, but evenly through out, but it's kinda lame that a Warrior tank takes several million less damage than me in a Guarm fight while still doing a bit more healing/absorbs than me.


It's a net loss no matter how you look at it.

[Shadochi]

I know they are mitigation tanks and are designed to take less damage over all. But I'm taking about 35% more damage while also barely either squeeking ahead or falling a bit behind on healing done.

We are designed to take more damage, but evenly through out, but it's kinda lame that a Warrior tank takes several million less damage than me in a Guarm fight while still doing a bit more healing/absorbs than me.


It's a net loss no matter how you look at it.

Not sure about pally, but I played a warr tank early into legion. And most of their defensive arsenal is based on blocking damage or it not affecting the health at all(Ignore Pain). Not sure if absorbs count into damage taken.

[Schattenlied]

Not sure if absorbs count into damage taken.

They don't, they count as healing (and overhealing if not consumed)

[stross01]

I take about 100mil dmg on Guarm, which is 15-25% more than our other tanks.

However, my intake is like a slight wave as opposed to sharp hits.

[Will]

Yeah it's normal. But because your damage intake is smooth, it's easy to heal. If you want to reduce raw damage intake as much as possible, run with Elusive Dance instead of the other level 100 talent choices, and try to shift crit into other stats. Purifying 65% of an 80% staggered hit, if done so immediately before any ticks of stagger can occur, results in 14.58% less damage being taken than immediately purifying 50% of a 90% staggered hit. Delaying before purifying makes no difference; for sheer damage reduction ED is the way to go; and even throws in some dodge for 6s.

But as any tank knows, there's more to the bigger picture than just the raw amount of damage taken. Our ability to smooth out massive spikes in a way other tanks can only dream of makes us ideal for handling infrequent, dangerous mechanics.

[stross01]

Yeah it's normal. But because your damage intake is smooth, it's easy to heal. If you want to reduce raw damage intake as much as possible, run with Elusive Dance instead of the other level 100 talent choices, and try to shift crit into other stats. Purifying 65% of an 80% staggered hit, if done so immediately before any ticks of stagger can occur, results in 14.58% less damage being taken than immediately purifying 50% of a 90% staggered hit. Delaying before purifying makes no difference; for sheer damage reduction ED is the way to go; and even throws in some dodge for 6s.

But as any tank knows, there's more to the bigger picture than just the raw amount of damage taken. Our ability to smooth out massive spikes in a way other tanks can only dream of makes us ideal for handling infrequent, dangerous mechanics.

Don't do these things. ED is pretty close to worthless right now, a little less with the patch. The things you can do with BoC will yield much better results or even High Tolerance if you aren't lazy.

[PinDrop]

I know they are mitigation tanks and are designed to take less damage over all. But I'm taking about 35% more damage while also barely either squeeking ahead or falling a bit behind on healing done.

We are designed to take more damage, but evenly through out, but it's kinda lame that a Warrior tank takes several million less damage than me in a Guarm fight while still doing a bit more healing/absorbs than me.


It's a net loss no matter how you look at it.

If healing meters showed damage purified, you'd be way ahead on those meters. You're fine.

Surprised I haven't really seen any talk about this anywhere, actually. Why don't they? Absorbs are counted as heals, and those are preemptive. Purifying should be counted as reactive healing, shouldn't it?

[Gorsameth]

If healing meters showed damage purified, you'd be way ahead on those meters. You're fine.

Surprised I haven't really seen any talk about this anywhere, actually. Why don't they? Absorbs are counted as heals, and those are preemptive. Purifying should be counted as reactive healing, shouldn't it?

I don't believe there is a combat log event for damage removed by Purifying so there simply is no easy reliable way to track it.

[Razios]

If healing meters showed damage purified, you'd be way ahead on those meters. You're fine.

Surprised I haven't really seen any talk about this anywhere, actually. Why don't they? Absorbs are counted as heals, and those are preemptive. Purifying should be counted as reactive healing, shouldn't it?

Why If purify directly reduce your damage taken? So its noticable in damage taken table instead of healing. It would be a lie if it counts as healing also.

[Saverem]

If healing meters showed damage purified, you'd be way ahead on those meters. You're fine.

Surprised I haven't really seen any talk about this anywhere, actually. Why don't they? Absorbs are counted as heals, and those are preemptive. Purifying should be counted as reactive healing, shouldn't it?

Same reason they don't show armor mitigation or blocked damage reduction for the plate tanks. If they showed that, they'd be up there with the damage Purify negates...

Stagger/Purify is essentially a BrM's high armor/block mechanic.

[TeleriaX]

Yeah it's normal. But because your damage intake is smooth, it's easy to heal.

It´s not. A tank getting damage all the time requires more effort to heal than a tank that drops from 100% to 50% with one hit as long as there are not more spikes incoming. And the game is currently designed that there are no multiple high spikes coming at the same time or with a small delay except you are ignoring important mechanics.
But you should know that when you talk big about something like "But as any tank knows..." bull****.

[Deleted]

Stagger is a smoothing mechanic. So yes, you take more overall damage, but it is less spikey. Which healers can appreciate. Esp. on high Tank-Damage Fights like Guarm.

It´s not. A tank getting damage all the time requires more effort to heal than a tank that drops from 100% to 50% with one hit as long as there are not more spikes incoming. And the game is currently designed that there are no multiple high spikes coming at the same time or with a small delay except you are ignoring important mechanics.
But you should know that when you talk big about something like "But as any tank knows..." bull****.

Weird. Seems every half decent healer I have ever met seems to disagree with you on that one. Sorry.

Edit - Well almost expected such a response. Oh well. haha

[britishbubba]

It´s not. A tank getting damage all the time requires more effort to heal than a tank that drops from 100% to 50% with one hit as long as there are not more spikes incoming. And the game is currently designed that there are no multiple high spikes coming at the same time or with a small delay except you are ignoring important mechanics.
But you should know that when you talk big about something like "But as any tank knows..." bull****.

I have literally never met a healer that advocates it being easier to heal spiky damage on tanks, than smooth damage. Unless you don't have a resto druid (which would be weird) healing a brewmaster isn't a spectacular amount of attention.

And I don't know about you, but guarm certainly hits hard enough that you're dedicating a substantial amount of healer time to the tanks regardless of what tanks you run, and the same has been true for a lot of the bosses this expansion so far.

The base function of stagger also just lets healers take a few seconds to ignore a brewmaster if they really want to since it's the only tank that's not going to straight up die if you let them hover sub 40% health (maybe bears won't either). I don't see how someone could reasonably say that brewmaster is actually harder to heal than other tanks (other than bears).

[stross01]

Weird. Seems every half decent player i haver ever met seems to agree with me on that one. Sorry noob.

You must be burdened with some pretty awful healers.

Being able to throw on some hots and forget about a tank's health for 15+ seconds (or a beacon and forget about the tank for the entire fight) is pretty much the peak of healing comfort. Whereas needing to babysit a 3-hit tank at all times is definitely more 'effort'.

[TeleriaX]

You must be burdened with some pretty awful healers.

Being able to throw on some hots and forget about a tank's health for 15+ seconds (or a beacon and forget about the tank for the entire fight) is pretty much the peak of healing comfort. Whereas needing to babysit a 3-hit tank at all times is definitely more 'effort'.

I´m not some delusional tank who thinks that i can judge the effort for the healers with some flawed logic like you guys. I´m playing healer on three different classes. Holy Priest, Holy Pala, Mistweaver. While yes as Pala i put a beacon on the tank and thats that. But that goes for every tank. Ever took the effort and compared the damage income with a Brewmaster with Ironbrew up against (lets say a Pala) with Shield of the Righteous up? No you didnt? Then do it and come back and tell me how SMOOTH the damage income of Brewmaster is.
And threw some hots on the tank? Like Renew as Priest or Renewing Mist as Mistweaver? If you think that is enough to keep a Brewmaster up you are terrible wrong. I would even say, if you think that is the case, you have some serious issues.

[britishbubba]

TIL shield of the righteous and iron skin brew have the same uptime. I'll have to tell my paladin co-tank that he's been doing it wrong.

And renew and renewing mist are garbage hots. But I guess that's probably why rdruids are the ones that end up doing a lot of the tank healing just by virtue of hitting two globals on the tanks every 20 seconds, and not mistweavers and holy priests.

[TeleriaX]

TIL shield of the righteous and iron skin brew have the same uptime. I'll have to tell my paladin co-tank that he's been doing it wrong.

And renew and renewing mist are garbage hots. But I guess that's probably why rdruids are the ones that end up doing a lot of the tank healing just by virtue of hitting two globals on the tanks every 20 seconds, and not mistweavers and holy priests.

They dont have the same uptime and i never said that. But tanks are not getting big hits all the time, most of the times it´s a special mechanic that does the most damage. It is possible to time shield of the righteous for those. And it´s not like other tanks are dropping to 50% every hit and Brewmasters are staying at 90%+ all the time. That is why i´m getting annoyed with "the damage income of Brewmasters is sooooo smooth". It´s simply not a big difference compared to Druids, Palas and even Warriors. Only DH´s and DK´s fall a bit off with that, but to compensate that they have insane self healing.
And Renewing Mist is a garbage hot? You sure you know about Mistweavers at all?

[britishbubba]

They dont have the same uptime and i never said that. But tanks are not getting big hits all the time, most of the times it´s a special mechanic that does the most damage. It is possible to time shield of the righteous for those.

And you can time purifying brew for those hits too. And you implied that they have similar uptime. You can't say something like "compare a paladin's dmg taken during SoTR and a monks dmg taken during ISB". They don't have the same uptime. Of course the paladin is going to take less damage for that specific hit. The only reason you could think that's a good comparison in that context is that you for some reason think they're comparable uptime.

And it´s not like other tanks are dropping to 50% every hit and Brewmasters are staying at 90%+ all the time. That is why i´m getting annoyed with "the damage income of Brewmasters is sooooo smooth". It´s simply not a big difference compared to Druids, Palas and even Warriors. Only DH´s and DK´s fall a bit off with that, but to compensate that they have insane self healing.

what does damage smoothness have to do with tank health? On purely physical damage, brewmasters with BoC or ED are taking 80% of their damage over 10 seconds (13 with a legendary) instead of just taking it upfront like other tanks.

Two tanks two 1,000 point hits. BrM takes 200 upfront and 800 over 10s, paladin takes 500 upfront. Now do that for several hits over a 30 second span, and figure in the part that brewmasters can only ever take a few hits in a row due to their mastery.

Brewmaster damage intake is smooth because its incredibly predictable. Predictability is good for healers because they then know exactly to what degree they can ignore the tank in order to heal other targets for a bit. If you leave a paladin tank or a warrior tank alone for 10 seconds and they don't have full coverage, they will be in serious risk of dying. It's much less likely for that to happen to brewmasters just through the virtue of cross splash healing.

Also, no. If anything brewmasters are the ones that are hovering at lower health all the time, not other tanks.

And Renewing Mist is a garbage hot? You sure you know about Mistweavers at all?

Considering it can jump off to another target whenever the one its on gets topped off. Yes, for the purposes of healing tanks renewing mist is worse than lifebloom, rejuv and to a lesser extent riptide. Mitigated a bit by the part that brewmaster is rarely completely topped off for when RM ticks.

[TeleriaX]

Brewmaster damage intake is smooth because its incredibly predictable. Predictability is good for healers because they then know exactly to what degree they can ignore the tank in order to heal other targets for a bit. If you leave a paladin tank or a warrior tank alone for 10 seconds and they don't have full coverage, they will be in serious risk of dying. It's much less likely for that to happen to brewmasters just through the virtue of cross splash healing.

And that is only true on a few rare occasions. If you leave a Warrior, Paladin and Brewmaster alone for 10 seconds without some special cooldowns up, Brewmasters will take the most damage with the lowest selfheal/absorb. Why are people keep forgetting about that? That 10 second time that you set is BAD for Brewmasters. If you wanted to keep that "smooth" damage in mind you are completely off track. And as i said before, other tanks are not getting some crazy unpredictable hits in raid settings. If they do, they messed up. People are way off with their thinking that smooth damage is easier for healers when it´s actually way more damage at the end of the day. More damage = more healing needed. If you think more healing needed = less attention, well... And that hot argument is the same thing. If the Hots are enough to keep the Brewmaster from dying, that is true for the other tanks too under normal conditions. Yes in your mind dot damage = hot heal = good isnt entirely wrong. But that doesnt mean that it doesnt work out for the other tanks too. That smooth damage is only a excuse from bad Brewmasters who want to keep thinking that they are the best tanks.

[britishbubba]

I don't know why you keep bringing up "crazy unpredictable hits" over and over when damage smoothing is typically in the context of normal melee hits. Brewmaster is just the best at smoothing that type of damage out (especially in the context of the nerfs to other tanks in 7.1.5). If you want to live in some strange world what you think that's not true, then all the power to you. And if you want to live in some strange world where holy priests are stuck on tank healing duty over a hpal or a rdruid... then yet again, all the power to you.