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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Pretty much all of this. His Islamophilia and involvement with black supremacist groups is a bit much for my tastes. The last thing the DNC needs is to go down that road.
    I assume you're not including the stuff like swearing into office on the Qur'an? His youthful connections would worry me more if they were reflected in current ideology or something he particularly stood by now.

    I don't mean to imply that Ellison is perfect of course, but he's also a solidly pro-working class liberal from the Rust Belt who's well spoken and focused. Perez would be fine with me as well, though I'm concerned with his connections to the Clinton wing of the party.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    The other thing along these lines that I saw much hand-wringing and anger about was the reality that Trump won white women by 10 points. This margin was even larger among married white women. It turns out that white women don't tend to lump themselves into the category of oppressed people and aren't generally all that impressed with the message that not voting for Clinton made them gender traitors.
    The defeat is probably the most painful, losing a significant chunk of the female vote is harsh. Especially after much ink was split about how women vote as a group irregardless of ethnic group. Feminists were really hoping now was the hour of their final claim to power. And Clinton ran a pretty standard campaign very dependent on Feminism and some tepid SocJus support.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  3. #103
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    I always giggle when people who are clearly "The left" argue there is no "The Left" hivemind.

    This group agree on basically every major issue - abortion, gun control, role of the state, economics, sexuality, identity politics, only to name a few on top of my head.

    Yet this very group does not want to be called "The left".
    People who vote for left wing parties can disagree on some of those individual issues. It is the larger pattern that allows them to be referenced more generally. Unless the group in question happen to be collectivist, assimilationist, the borg, etc, I don't think hivemind is a valid description.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    That they continue to see this through the prism of, "well, I always knew those white women were racist" isn't an endorsement of their analysis.
    A significant part of why the left and the right talk past each other is because they understand racism differently. Obviously both sides think its bad (ability to recognize it being a whole other topic), but on the right there's this idea of "racism is a thing bad people do and/or it makes them bad people", where on the left its viewed more as part of the human experience, just not a part to be accepted.

    So when a person on the left talks about racism being a motivating factor they're not wholly condemning the person any more than saying anger is a motivating factor means that that person is a roided out rage monster. Where as on the right when they hear "this is a pretty racist argument" they take it as a core indictment of character. Probably ties into established differences in how those on the left and right handle shades of gray.

    That said, "Gender Identity gets beat out by Race Identity" isn't saying those people are racist, just that its the stronger message for those people.

  5. #105
    Banned JohnBrown1917's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bewbew View Post
    I always giggle when people who are clearly "The left" argue there is no "The Left" hivemind.

    This group agree on basically every major issue - abortion, gun control, role of the state, economics, sexuality, identity politics, only to name a few on top of my head.

    Yet this very group does not want to be called "The left" or even admit to the existence of "The left".
    Nice try, but your wrong. Or do you have a source for your claim?


    State communists and Anarchists agree on gun control? Role of the state? Really?

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    I assume you're not including the stuff like swearing into office on the Qur'an? His youthful connections would worry me more if they were reflected in current ideology or something he particularly stood by now.

    I don't mean to imply that Ellison is perfect of course, but he's also a solidly pro-working class liberal from the Rust Belt who's well spoken and focused. Perez would be fine with me as well, though I'm concerned with his connections to the Clinton wing of the party.
    Yeah, I don't care what someone swears in on.

    I'm probably not a good person to speak on any personal preferences - I'm thoroughly disenchanted with the party at this point and have a hard time imagining that they'll pick someone that I don't dislike. There probably are options, but none seem to be rising.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Yeah, I don't care what someone swears in on.

    I'm probably not a good person to speak on any personal preferences - I'm thoroughly disenchanted with the party at this point and have a hard time imagining that they'll pick someone that I don't dislike. There probably are options, but none seem to be rising.
    Democrats certainly have a leadership problem. Ties into their weak emphasis on the local election.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Democrats certainly have a leadership problem. Ties into their weak emphasis on the local election.
    FWIW, I vote for my local Dem rep happily, but it's in a county that's so laughably far left that it doesn't really mean much. Some of the local politics are pretty ridiculous, bordering on a parody of the silliest parts of the left, but there's still the core of old-school, pro-labor, Upper Midwest Democrats that I'd prefer gain some power back in the broader policy.

    If that's going to be Ellison's focus and I've misread him, that's cool. I won't hold my breath.
    Last edited by Spectral; 2016-12-31 at 10:56 PM.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    FWIW, I vote for my local Dem rep happily, but it's in a county that's so laughably far left that it doesn't really mean much. Some of the local politics are pretty ridiculous, bordering on a parody of the silliest parts of the left, but there's still the core of old-school, pro-labor, Upper Midwest Democrats that I'd prefer gain some power back in the broader policy.

    If that's going to be Ellison's focus and I've misread him, that's cool. I won't hold my breath.
    Take hope in knowing that most of the standing Dem leadership is solidly working class oriented.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Dang, it's only a matter of time before I can figure out who you actually are.
    50% chance he's a Romney.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Dang, it's only a matter of time before I can figure out who you actually are.
    Sometimes I wonder if I should be a little more private, but I kind of figure that anyone that's a creepy enough stalker to harass me IRL could do so even if I were somewhat more careful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    50% chance he's a Romney.
    I do have a strong affinity for Mormons...

  12. #112
    Deleted
    Because the left is made up of several smaller groups it needs to constantly be pushing for one group after another, hence why the progressive stack came to be. And the fact that this has consumed all their time means they never get anything done especially at the local levels. Which is most likely one of the major reasons why republicans won so much during Obama's tenure.
    Last edited by mmoc15f8c2a169; 2016-12-31 at 11:08 PM.

  13. #113
    The Lightbringer fengosa's Avatar
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    I don't think identity politics and economics are mutually exclusive. It's possible to achieve both although the Obama was probably more successful on the later.

    Obama's economy was steady if unspectacular but it's not as if either Bush administration was anything to write home about either each ending in recessions. There's a reason why conservatives continue the reagan ball-licking.

    We'll have to see how Trump runs things but if wages aren't increasing and health care costs don't change I don't think the average American will be much better off. Those 2 goals should be the priority of any government currently.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Dextroden View Post
    I thought you said Trump was Hitler.
    Trump is a social justice warrior in a safe space.

  15. #115
    Fluffy Kitten xChurch's Avatar
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    I'll seriously never understand how Trump saying various things about minorities specifically isn't identity politics, but the Left responding to it is. Anyone who thinks the Right doesn't play identity politics just has much (if not more so) than the Left is kidding themselves. The Right just has a better way of disguising it, such as Religious Freedom.

    Though yes I would agree that as far as economics goes, liberals are more often in the centre than the Left. No one really has the balls to stake out a really liberal economic agenda, just look at how watered down "universal" became.
    Last edited by xChurch; 2016-12-31 at 11:25 PM.

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Looooot of liberals were saying to never trust in gender identity over race identity. Minority feminists have spent decades lamenting how fickle white feminism can be.
    There it is again. The divisiveness.
    Last edited by Cybran; 2016-12-31 at 11:29 PM.

  17. #117
    The Unstoppable Force PC2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xChurch View Post
    I'll seriously never understand how Trump saying various things about minorities specifically isn't identity politics, but Liberals responding to it is. Anyone who thinks the Right doesn't play identity politics just has much (if not more so) than the Left is kidding themselves. The Right just has a better way of disguising it, such as Religious Freedom.
    Trump says bad things about groups based on their behavior, such as illegals coming from Mexico. Identity politics is more so about things you're born as.

  18. #118
    Fluffy Kitten xChurch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimaryColor View Post
    Trump says bad things about groups based on their behavior, such as illegals coming from Mexico. Identity politics is more so about things you're born as.
    He specifically may steer clear of that, but you'd have to admit the Republicans as a whole are just as guilty as the Democrats.

  19. #119
    Titan I Push Buttons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Trump isn't really Hitler, or Roosevelt. Trump is a sign that the bell tolls and the elite have failed and will keep failing.
    How did the elite fail? A billionaire was elected president and his entire cabinet thus far are prototypical lobbyists for the elites and their holdings?

    He has promised to lower all of their taxes significantly.

    He has promised to deregulate their industries.

    Pretty much the only thing he has promised they don't like is the end of free trade, and that is never happening, so its irrelevant.

    All the while the idiot masses who supported him are appeased because for some reason they, like you, stupidly believe they have won. When literally all their vote has resulted in is potentially even more money going to the top.

  20. #120
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Push Buttons View Post
    How did the elite fail? A billionaire was elected president and his entire cabinet thus far are prototypical lobbyists for the elites and their holdings?

    He has promised to lower all of their taxes significantly.

    He has promised to deregulate their industries.

    Pretty much the only thing he has promised they don't like is the end of free trade, and that is never happening, so its irrelevant.

    All the while the idiot masses who supported him are appeased because for some reason they, like you, stupidly believe they have won. When literally all their vote has resulted in is potentially even more money going to the top.
    They didn't want him? There is no turning around and suddenly proclaiming "Oh really they all wanted him."

    What we have now is a media that cannot command the narrative, and at least one cadre of elites that believed now was their time, being informed it wasn't actually their time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

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