Lonely Winter is better than you think.

[NoClueWhatToDo]

Simulationcraft tells us that Lonely Winter is about 10,000 DPS behind Bone Chilling. At least for me it does when I simulate my character with the two different talents.

Why?

Well, I'm not entirely sure why LW is considered weaker than BC. This is my first expansion as Mage and I'm still learning, but this is why I think LW is considered weaker than BC. When you use LW, you lose the option to summon your frost elemental. Therefore you lose out on that extra chance of generating Fingers of Frost to keep Icy Veins going.

Okay cool. Then why do I think it's better than people think?

Allow me to explain, and this is from personal experience. With BC, I average about 50% up time on IV per boss fights. This is without the legendary gloves. Now with LW, I average an up time of IV of about 40% per boss fight. So not much of a difference here.

So? Who cares.. Get to the good stuff.

Okay okay.. I'm coming out ahead on DPS with LW than I am with BC. Anyone want to take a guess by how much DPS? About 10,000 difference. So simulations say that BC is about 10,000 DPS ahead of LW. However, real life is showing LW ahead of BC by about 10,000 DPS. I'm ranking in the 95% and upwards with LW. Where as I was ranking anywhere from 85% to 90% with BC.

Listen.. I get people think simulations are the holy grail. And I can see why.. But isn't it possible that simulations can be wrong sometimes? Hell.. Maybe BC will be much better than LW when and if I get legendary gloves for frost... But right now LW is just performing really good.

Anyone else playing with LW as frost?

[Freezeej]

I personally think that LW is better in this sense. By using LW you are obviously down the pet as well as the FoF proc. The spec i have been using and the spec I have seen alot of mages running is LW with Glacial spike. By going this spec you focus specifically on Mastery and crit. Mastery needs to be in the 80s percent wise. combined with rune of power and if you get enough crits with frostbolt before casting GS, you can give a crit of GS for around 4-8 million depending the FB damage, using Flurry and Ice Lance as fillers where you can.

[Willfox]

It depends on what fight, and what spec you are using. If you are using Thermal void, then BC is going to be better than LW. Also, are you sure you aren't making mistakes in your rotation that leads to bc dropping? It is actually really easy to happen when casting ebonchil then lancing if you aren't paying attention.

Also, top logs are keeping up Icy Veins 75-90% of the time with bc.

PS: here are some actual logs, and LW with GS does have some legs to stand on (Will have to see again come 7.1.5)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...age&spec=Frost

(Last edit, some logs have 100% IV uptime)

[NoClueWhatToDo]

It depends on what fight, and what spec you are using. If you are using Thermal void, then BC is going to be better than LW. Also, are you sure you aren't making mistakes in your rotation that leads to bc dropping? It is actually really easy to happen when casting ebonchil then lancing if you aren't paying attention.

Also, top logs are keeping up Icy Veins 75-90% of the time with bc.

PS: here are some actual logs, and LW with GS does have some legs to stand on (Will have to see again come 7.1.5)
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...age&spec=Frost

Those logs with 75% to 90%, they must have the legendary gloves. I don't have the legendary gloves. As for BC going down, looking over my logs BC up time is 96%

Edit: I take that back.. Looking at some logs some guys in the 79% don't have gloves.. Well I'm scratching my head now.. Not sure why I can't keep IV up that long then..

[Willfox]

Those logs with 75% to 90%, they must have the legendary gloves. I don't have the legendary gloves. As for BC going down, looking over my logs BC up time is 96%

Nope, here is the second top parse, no gloves, 79% uptime
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=22

The top logs are pretty much always going to be skewed by RNG, but they also generally have very tight play, so there may be room for personal improvement if you are a LONG way off their uptimes.

- - - Updated - - -

Those logs with 75% to 90%, they must have the legendary gloves. I don't have the legendary gloves. As for BC going down, looking over my logs BC up time is 96%

Also, bc uptime might be 96%, but is that 96% at 12 stacks? cos if it drops for .1 of a second and you apply 1 stack and slowly build but up again a few times in a fight, the uptime is still going to be very high

[NoClueWhatToDo]

Nope, here is the second top parse, no gloves, 79% uptime
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...uras&source=22

The top logs are pretty much always going to be skewed by RNG, but they also generally have very tight play, so there may be room for personal improvement if you are a LONG way off their uptimes.

- - - Updated - - -



Also, bc uptime might be 96%, but is that 96% at 12 stacks? cos if it drops for .1 of a second and you apply 1 stack and slowly build but up again a few times in a fight, the uptime is still going to be very high

I'm scratching my head on the IV up time. Some of those logs don't even have gloves and hitting 79%.. I mean.. I'm using FT on cool down during the IV buff. Use my pets ability, using ebonbolt on cool down.. lol So either I'm doing something wrong or those high logs with up time got real luck with procs..

And my recent log on Nyth has 99% BC uptime with 12.

Yeah.. My FoF procs are 45% and the other top log I'm looking at has 65% for FoF procs. LOL

[Willfox]

I'm scratching my head on the IV up time. Some of those logs don't even have gloves and hitting 79%.. I mean.. I'm using FT on cool down during the IV buff. Use my pets ability, using ebonbolt on cool down.. lol So either I'm doing something wrong or those high logs with up time got real luck with procs..

And my recent log on Nyth has 99% BC uptime with 12.

Yeah.. My FoF procs are 45% and the other top log I'm looking at has 65% for FoF procs. LOL

I'm scratching my head on the IV up time. Some of those logs don't even have gloves and hitting 79%.. I mean.. I'm using FT on cool down during the IV buff. Use my pets ability, using ebonbolt on cool down.. lol So either I'm doing something wrong or those high logs with up time got real luck with procs..

There is almost definately an element of luck to it, but half the reason "the sims are wrong" is because sometimes the spell priority you are meant to follow is excedingly difficult to perform as well as the sim does. Gear would also be a factor, their amount of crit and haste reduces the amount of luck they need to get those uptimes.

If we take that second log for example, they had 52.6% crit chance on frostbolt (So less IV cd), when their frostbolt should have about 49% crit chance, so it's slightly higher or "lucky". They also had 16 flurry casts from 95 frostbolts, which is actually a 17% chance of brainfreeze proc, where as it should have been 23% (15+6 from artifact wep, +2 from relic trait), and the reason this is relevant is because of the guaranteed frostbolt crit from flurry, as well as the ice lance to keep IV going.

They also have 2 frostbolt reduce the cd of IV relics in their weapon.


It may be that LW is an easier to execute priority list and therefore for most people will perform closer to what the sims suggest. Also, the glacial spike with LW has been proven to be effective, but it can be very RNG dependant on where you get your crits.

If you really want lots of information about what specs work, try https://www.altered-time.com/forum/ it is basically the best place to find mage information.

[NoClueWhatToDo]

There is almost definately an element of luck to it, but half the reason "the sims are wrong" is because sometimes the spell priority you are meant to follow is excedingly difficult to perform as well as the sim does. Gear would also be a factor, their amount of crit and haste reduces the amount of luck they need to get those uptimes.

If we take that second log for example, they had 52.6% crit chance on frostbolt (So less IV cd), when their frostbolt should have about 49% crit chance, so it's slightly higher or "lucky". They also had 16 flurry casts from 95 frostbolts, which is actually a 17% chance of brainfreeze proc, where as it should have been 23% (15+6 from artifact wep, +2 from relic trait), and the reason this is relevant is because of the guaranteed frostbolt crit from flurry, as well as the ice lance to keep IV going.

They also have 2 frostbolt reduce the cd of IV relics in their weapon.


It may be that LW is an easier to execute priority list and therefore for most people will perform closer to what the sims suggest. Also, the glacial spike with LW has been proven to be effective, but it can be very RNG dependant on where you get your crits.

If you really want lots of information about what specs work, try https://www.altered-time.com/forum/ it is basically the best place to find mage information.

Oh. I don't use the relic that reduces the cool down on IV. I use the Flurry in my arcane and Ice Lance in my frosts..

[Ulfric Trumpcloak]

Said every virgin ever! Amirite?

[Redhell]

Simulationcraft tells us that Lonely Winter is about 10,000 DPS behind Bone Chilling. At least for me it does when I simulate my character with the two different talents.

Why?

Well, I'm not entirely sure why LW is considered weaker than BC. This is my first expansion as Mage and I'm still learning, but this is why I think LW is considered weaker than BC. When you use LW, you lose the option to summon your frost elemental. Therefore you lose out on that extra chance of generating Fingers of Frost to keep Icy Veins going.

Okay cool. Then why do I think it's better than people think?

Allow me to explain, and this is from personal experience. With BC, I average about 50% up time on IV per boss fights. This is without the legendary gloves. Now with LW, I average an up time of IV of about 40% per boss fight. So not much of a difference here.

So? Who cares.. Get to the good stuff.

Okay okay.. I'm coming out ahead on DPS with LW than I am with BC. Anyone want to take a guess by how much DPS? About 10,000 difference. So simulations say that BC is about 10,000 DPS ahead of LW. However, real life is showing LW ahead of BC by about 10,000 DPS. I'm ranking in the 95% and upwards with LW. Where as I was ranking anywhere from 85% to 90% with BC.

Listen.. I get people think simulations are the holy grail. And I can see why.. But isn't it possible that simulations can be wrong sometimes? Hell.. Maybe BC will be much better than LW when and if I get legendary gloves for frost... But right now LW is just performing really good.

Anyone else playing with LW as frost?

LW is better, or should be, in 7.1.5 due to the buff to GS and the nerf to TV build overall. LW GS frost is doing reeeeeeeeeally well on PTR with a heavy mastery->haste build.

[Willfox]

LW is better, or should be, in 7.1.5 due to the buff to GS and the nerf to TV build overall. LW GS frost is doing reeeeeeeeeally well on PTR with a heavy mastery->haste build.

Don't forget the frostbolt nerf too, I believe, that it actually results in an overall nerf to GS damage, at least at decent mastery levels.

[Redhell]

Don't forget the frostbolt nerf too, I believe, that it actually results in an overall nerf to GS damage, at least at decent mastery levels.

from my experience on the PTR this doesn't seem to be the case. at roughly 80% mastery I was bursting to almost 650k and sustaining roughly 500k depending on crit RNG. the problem with that is crit is either on par with very or slightly worse making it the worst stat. Frost is gonna be funny in 7.1.5.

[NoClueWhatToDo]

from my experience on the PTR this doesn't seem to be the case. at roughly 80% mastery I was bursting to almost 650k and sustaining roughly 500k depending on crit RNG. the problem with that is crit is either on par with very or slightly worse making it the worst stat. Frost is gonna be funny in 7.1.5.

So I need to start collecting Mastery gear? lol I've been just doing crit/haste.. I can get my mastery to around 65% with some low ILVL gear I have, but then I lose so my INT and my DPS just drops a lot from the lack of it.

[Deleted]

I really don't understand how people can play with Water Elemental, the ugliest pet in the game, just because they do like 1% more dps as they would do it with LW.

[Venziir]

I really don't understand how people can play with Water Elemental, the ugliest pet in the game, just because they do like 1% more dps as they would do it with LW.

You do know you can alter it with a glyph right?

[killerlee]

I have been using a LW spec for about 2 months now and I dont use GS with it. Its pretty much the TV void spec with LW. My spec works really well although im flamed just like the original poster was cause omg sims tells us that LW sucks!

Look up Raventhrops on Area-52 if you have any questions.

Im averaging 450-500k dps with this spec, I try using Ray or BC and i can barely do 350k and thats using them properly.

[Deleted]

I have been using a LW spec for about 2 months now and I dont use GS with it. Its pretty much the TV void spec with LW. My spec works really well although im flamed just like the original poster was cause omg sims tells us that LW sucks!

Look up Raventhrops on Area-52 if you have any questions.

Im averaging 450-500k dps with this spec, I try using Ray or BC and i can barely do 350k and thats using them properly.

would you mind logging a 4-5 min dummy fight and posting it here?

[NoClueWhatToDo]

would you mind logging a 4-5 min dummy fight and posting it here?

How do you log a dummy fight? Just like you would a normal raid fight?

[Thelxi]

You do know you can alter it with a glyph right?

Still ugly.

[NoClueWhatToDo]

would you mind logging a 4-5 min dummy fight and posting it here?

Figured it out. No food buff/no flask. Used potion and hero.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LPKWJ3nkr6MQDT8h/