Watcher knew about Legion issues, did nothing about it

[Deleted]

Great sum of excuses. Actually doesn't matter since even most P2Win Asian RPGs have better balance than WoW nowadays.

Feel free to name one

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Rerolls to new characters were done based on legendaries though, and characters were rolled to fish for good legendaries.

People weren't subbed out at the top because the potential for that problem was seen a mile off and worked around. Sure there's some who don't have BiS legendaries knocking about, but there aren't many who've got no good ones at all.

This has been done in a long time based on who got what trinkets and so on. Nothing new here

[Echocho]

Of course they knew, but they probably didn't agree with us and didn't see this as an issue. The current WoW developers seem to have forgotten what made character progression fun and exciting before multiple difficulties existed.

[WowIsDead64]

Blizzard often even admit problems, but design game their way anyway. I guess, in every xpack they try to attract different auditory of players. In Legion they simply want to cater to Diablo III players. Deal with it. Dunno, why it happens. May be they want to merge their Wow and Diablo playerbases. I guess, they think, that they can hook players in a long term, so all they need - is to attract them in one xpack and then they will be hooked and stay playing due to being inertial. But... Yeah, may be some amount of "bait and switch" crap is tolerable, but don't you think, that in Legion they've gone way too far? IT'S WAY TOO ARCADE!

[schwarzkopf]

Makes me wonder how many dozens of people didn't get to raid because they had the wrong legendary.

Probably 10% of 0.15% of the 15% of players that raid.... in plain terms, almost no-one.

[klogaroth]

This has been done in a long time based on who got what trinkets and so on. Nothing new here

Not in the same way, and with the way the system works certainly not with as much impact.

If you get a bad trinket it has no bearing on whether you have a chance to get a good trinket in future. Farm and split runs will smooth out that luck, and every time you enter the raid the good trinket has the same chance to drop. When you get a bad legendary your chances of receiving a good one go down, to the point where you'd be better off making a brand new character if you don't get a good one in your first 3-4 if you're dead set on getting one of the good ones.

Yes, future balancing etc will bring them closer, but it just seems like a system designed to give people moments of joy when they get something quickly turned to disappointment in getting something bad, and is now turning to the response being an apathetic "meh" if a legendary of any sort drops. And this is after months of Legion being out. Getting good legendaries wasn't a moment of excitement for me at all, it was a moment of relief. If a system with the intention of making people happy they got something is getting the reaction "thank god this isn't something shit" then it's just not doing its intended job.

[Deleted]

Legion is the first expansion I feel I'm falling behind every minute I lose for life. You can endlessly grind AP and titanforged gear. My time is limited and if I plan to gather some herbs I realise I have to spam mythic +. I like Legion anyway, but this preasure is a bit too stressful, lije waiting for enemy turn on hearthstone

You are upostu be behind players what plays more. Thats how game works. Like what do you want? Blizzard to stop them from playing so you can catch up with them? Put insade game soft caps so you dont feel forced to play game? Casuals will never and dont deserver to catch up to more hardcore players end of story.

[Deleted]

Great sum of excuses. Actually doesn't matter since even most P2Win Asian RPGs have better balance than WoW nowadays.

WTF legion has one of the best balancing since mmorpgs are founded. Speaking only for pve , wow is not a pvp game which should judged for the pvp balance.

Look at all the wowlogs, the differences are sooooooooooo small comparing any top spec from each classs.
The problem are the kids who cry if class A is doing 550k dps and class B is doing 542k dps. Which is , be honest, a 1,5% difference?

[Soeroah]

I don't think the "just to meet a deadline" "argument" works that well when Legion had another month to go until their initially announced release date.

Honestly, when I saw the topic title I thought the thread was going to be about the push for mythic at the expense of making the story accessible, or the grinds in the Illidan chain, or the altholic unfriendliness...

[Redroniksre]

Maybe you're being delusional. Even if mythic raiders aim for top performance and the system hurts them the most, it doesn't change the fact that:

1/ Legendary items are totally unbalanced between each other
2/ The way of getting them is pure RNG
3/ The system had at least 2 ways of making the grind harder that we know about (softcap at 4 + diminishing returns)

If you don't care about it, fine. Most people do, contrary to your beliefs.

Let me put this in another way. Imagine your salary each month was RNG. You could be winning 2k€ or you could be winning 200€. The next month you had to work 2x the time for the same chance. Would it be fine with you?

Also, lets not forget another thing. Some people are doing LFR and RHC and getting BiS legendaries, while people doing Mythic raiding and spamming M+ are getting garbage. How is exactly the system rewarding effort? Oh yeah, it is not.

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They didn't sub them out, but those people made alts to get the legendaries. So its essentially the same, the difference is the players themselves wanted to be competitive, so they did the alts.

While the one facet i don't quite like is the 4 Legendary cap, to say that most people care is delusional. The majority of players are not raiders, or even high level mythic runner. Most players don't give two shits, you might think most do because of forum posts, but a vast minority are the forum posters, not the majority, The only ones who have the stats on feedback are Blizzard themselves.

[Shirofune]

While the one facet i don't quite like is the 4 Legendary cap, to say that most people care is delusional. The majority of players are not raiders, or even high level mythic runner. Most players don't give two shits, you might think most do because of forum posts, but a vast minority are the forum posters, not the majority, The only ones who have the stats on feedback are Blizzard themselves.

If they don't care is because they don't know. Simple as that.

Nobody would want an item that performs worse than another for a DPS if they knew about it and had a chance to choose.

In fact, I'm sure 99% of people would pick their current BiS if a token system was implemented and the number of Sephuz/Prydaz would descent into darkness.

[Deleted]

I don't need to get benched to feel shitty about being the last of my class on the DPS meter because I got the shittiest legendaries.

"You probably suck and would be last anyways" - very mature argument. No I don't. I'm very very well within the variance of what DPS simcraft tells me to do with my gear.

[Deleted]

Maybe you're being delusional. Even if mythic raiders aim for top performance and the system hurts them the most, it doesn't change the fact that:

1/ Legendary items are totally unbalanced between each other
2/ The way of getting them is pure RNG
3/ The system had at least 2 ways of making the grind harder that we know about (softcap at 4 + diminishing returns)

If you don't care about it, fine. Most people do, contrary to your beliefs.

Let me put this in another way. Imagine your salary each month was RNG. You could be winning 2k€ or you could be winning 200€. The next month you had to work 2x the time for the same chance. Would it be fine with you?

Also, lets not forget another thing. Some people are doing LFR and RHC and getting BiS legendaries, while people doing Mythic raiding and spamming M+ are getting garbage. How is exactly the system rewarding effort? Oh yeah, it is not.

Eh, wow, talk about stretched analogies. How about we stay in the realm of 'videogame entertainment' and not wander off the cliff in analogies that completely lack perspective. It's a damn game. Entertainment. Analogies about salaries are not very relevant.

1) The "unbalanced" factor - yes, some of them are throughput increasing and some aren't. That's obviously not good. But in the the context we're talking about (outside the magic mythic bubble) they are really not gamechangers in any shape or form.

2) Yes, this was a request from community, us. After two expacs of 'easy legendaries' in form of a long questlines/collectibles, we - the players cried and whined about how much more awesome the 'totally rng' system was back in vanilla. And as with many things in Legion, the devs listened and delivered the RNG drop system. "We" (I'm aware there's no such homogenous entity as "the community", just using it here for the lack of better term) asked for this, so it's hardly not a surprise.

3) Then don't grind? Who is forcing you? Do some eligible content and the system will see that sooner of later you get a drop. I've got 3 of the damn things and I haven't "tried" to get any of them. It's a fun little extra when it drops. Again, remember the context - we're outside the magic mythic 5% bubble. You don't really need one. It makes no real difference to you or your raid, it's just a fun extra thing

[Sorshen]

Bottom line... we don't need 4 difficulties.

[Pull My Finger]

doesn't change the fact that:

1/ Legendary items are totally unbalanced between each other
2/ The way of getting them is pure RNG

If you don't care about it, fine. Most people do, contrary to your beliefs.

Because they're stupid and they just simply don't get it. There's nothing wrong with either of the two things you felt you needed to point out.

[Deleted]

Pretty much this. While some legendaries are sub par, the number of people who were supposedly sat because of legendaries is probably EXTREMELY small. This is nothing but an example of the newest tactic players are trying to use to get attention to their beliefs. If they can convince other players, or the developers, that they are not able to play the game for whatever reason, then they will automatically change things.

This game is massive, and there will likely be things that don't work properly (bugs, etc) people grab ahold of a few things and make HUGE deals about them, when in actuality, they are rather minor. It is damn near IMPOSSIBLE to fully "balance' everything in this game, but people expect them to be able to balance everything to within .05% of something else, or they scream about balance. If someone has something they want, and they don't have it, they scream until they can have it. Like a bunch of children.

Then people say "If we don't say something about it, then it will never get changed". Sadly, MOST things people complain about, don't need 'fixed'. It is nothing more than an opinion on how they think the game should work.

Over all, if you or your raid group is sitting people because they don't have a certain legebdary, the problem is not with the system, it's with you. If you need that ONE or TWO people with a certain piece of gear to kill a boss, the problem is not with the system, the problem is your raid group sucks. You can easily kill these bosses without legendaries if the group works well together, and follows mechanics.

FFS people, stop bitching about everything in this game, the game is NOT in that bad a shape as you all make it out to be. Just because you don't like something, or the way it was designed, does not make it 'wrong' and need 'fixed'. The amount of bullshit whining because something 'is not fair' is getting out of hand. Life isn't fair, something in a video game are also not fair, get over it and stop this "I didn't get what I want, when I wanted it, so lets go complain" attitude.

so even if you dont let someone raid cause they got wrong legendary but without certain legendary there spec is way below all other specs it aslo bad if youre trying to kill a boss?

[chronia]

Rerolls to new characters were done based on legendaries though, and characters were rolled to fish for good legendaries.

People weren't subbed out at the top because the potential for that problem was seen a mile off and worked around. Sure there's some who don't have BiS legendaries knocking about, but there aren't many who've got no good ones at all.

I wonder how often this happened though, esp the rolling of characters for legendaries (since this "tactic" only really came to light with the softcap rumours of 4 legendaries and the boosted droprate for first leg, which only happened close to, or after the release of 7.1.5). From what i understood from the top guild interviews this didn't happen alot at all, what they did do alot however was pick the best geared character of each player that was best geared and fit their comp out of the 5-6 characters they needed to have ready for Splitraids anyway. They didn't really need to work around it, because their system of having 5-6 alts for splitraids which has been in place for quite some time already was a working workaround.

For example alot of ppl point to Sco playing Scogun instead of Sco, but that character seems to be made somewhere in Wrath or even before, which is hardly with Legion legendaries in mind.

[Shirofune]

Eh, wow, talk about stretched analogies. How about we stay in the realm of 'videogame entertainment' and not wander off the cliff in analogies that completely lack perspective. It's a damn game. Entertainment. Analogies about salaries are not very relevant.

1) The "unbalanced" factor - yes, some of them are throughput increasing and some aren't. That's obviously not good. But in the the context we're talking about (outside the magic mythic bubble) they are really not gamechangers in any shape or form.

2) Yes, this was a request from community, us. After two expacs of 'easy legendaries' in form of a long questlines/collectibles, we - the players cried and whined about how much more awesome the 'totally rng' system was back in vanilla. And as with many things in Legion, the devs listened and delivered the RNG drop system. "We" (I'm aware there's no such homogenous entity as "the community", just using it here for the lack of better term) asked for this, so it's hardly not a surprise.

3) Then don't grind? Who is forcing you? Do some eligible content and the system will see that sooner of later you get a drop. I've got 3 of the damn things and I haven't "tried" to get any of them. It's a fun little extra when it drops. Again, remember the context - we're outside the magic mythic 5% bubble. You don't really need one. It makes no real difference to you or your raid, it's just a fun extra thing

I made real world analogies so you could feel them closer than being a video game, that was the point. Some people have fun grinding endlessly, some don't. I enjoy grinding if I know I will eventually know I will reach my objective. With this system, that is not certain. In fact, the more I try, the harder it gets. Now to answer your points:

1/ DH Ring. DK Bracers. Just to mention two. Those two are gamechangers for their respective classes. In fact, I'm still wondering why their effects are not baseline.

2/ Afaik in Blizzcon 2015, what they said was that this was a system intended to be a mix between Vanilla and MoP/WoD, and that we COULD target legendaries. What instead was delivered was a Vanilla Diablo 3 loot system in which everything is random. In case you don't know about the D3 fiasco, let me remind you. Everything was random, legendary/set items were so scarce they were being sold in AH for retarded amounts of REAL money. The Loot V2 brought the game to a much healthier place, where loot is still RNG, but the loot is useful to your class AND the legendary/green loot were increased by a LOT. You can still grind to fish those ancient parts, but you will get your set "fast", provided you farm.

The current system in WoW is D3 Vanila as in:

- Everything is RNG
- Drop is very scarce
- Drop gets harder the more legendaries you have

3/ Whaat do you think its forcing me to grind other than my determination to be better with my class? I'm sure I did more M+ than you did in your entire life. I've 4 legendaries. Only one of those can be qualified as BiS and its still nowhere close to how powerful the ring is.

According to user data, I should be doing ALL the amount of content I've done since Legion release to be close to my 5th legendary drop.

As some others have pointed already, I only felt excitement when my first legendary dropped, DH boots (garbage). After that, I didn't feel excitement or fun, just disappointment and with my 4th legendary, I felt nothing at all.

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Because they're stupid and they just simply don't get it. There's nothing wrong with either of the two things you felt you needed to point out.

Except there's? The amount of power gated behind Legendaries is so big it makes no sense to gate it behind RNG doors.

[Deleted]

I made real world analogies so you could feel them closer than being a video game, that was the point. Some people have fun grinding endlessly, some don't. I enjoy grinding if I know I will eventually know I will reach my objective. With this system, that is not certain. In fact, the more I try, the harder it gets. Now to answer your points:

1/ DH Ring. DK Bracers. Just to mention two. Those two are gamechangers for their respective classes. In fact, I'm still wondering why their effects are not baseline.

2/ Afaik in Blizzcon 2015, what they said was that this was a system intended to be a mix between Vanilla and MoP/WoD, and that we COULD target legendaries. What instead was delivered was a Vanilla Diablo 3 loot system in which everything is random. In case you don't know about the D3 fiasco, let me remind you. Everything was random, legendary/set items were so scarce they were being sold in AH for retarded amounts of REAL money. The Loot V2 brought the game to a much healthier place, where loot is still RNG, but the loot is useful to your class AND the legendary/green loot were increased by a LOT. You can still grind to fish those ancient parts, but you will get your set "fast", provided you farm.

The current system in WoW is D3 Vanila as in:

- Everything is RNG
- Drop is very scarce
- Drop gets harder the more legendaries you have

3/ Whaat do you think its forcing me to grind other than my determination to be better with my class? I'm sure I did more M+ than you did in your entire life. I've 4 legendaries. Only one of those can be qualified as BiS and its still nowhere close to how powerful the ring is.

According to user data, I should be doing ALL the amount of content I've done since Legion release to be close to my 5th legendary drop.

As some others have pointed already, I only felt excitement when my first legendary dropped, DH boots (garbage). After that, I didn't feel excitement or fun, just disappointment and with my 4th legendary, I felt nothing at all.

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Except there's? The amount of power gated behind Legendaries is so big it makes no sense to gate it behind RNG doors.

100% agree

[Lochton]

Makes me wonder how many dozens of people didn't get to raid because they had the wrong legendary.

None? The ones whom didn't get to raid due to wrong legendary, most likely benched themselves.

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TL;DR: If an orange item pops up in your loot window, you should 100% be excited about it. If you're not, then it's a bad system.

And here I am, cheering that not all Legendaries are 'the best' and they have their own function..

[Deleted]

1/ DH Ring. DK Bracers. Just to mention two. Those two are gamechangers for their respective classes. In fact, I'm still wondering why their effects are not baseline.

In what context? Do you mean DH's and DK's are unable to complete 100-110 leveling without them? They're unable to do dungeons? They're somehow detriment to their Normal Raid? We're talking about a world outside the mythic 5% bubble after all. I don't see them being unviable without the legendaries. Certainly they become much better with them, but from a standpoint of a heroic raid leader, what does it really matter? There are thousand other things to improve the overall raid performance - whether the DK has the legendary or a not, doesn't really affect the raid success very much.

2/ Afaik in Blizzcon 2015, what they said was that this was a system intended to be a mix between Vanilla and MoP/WoD, and that we COULD target legendaries. What instead was delivered was a Vanilla Diablo 3 loot system in which everything is random.

Well I don't remember that particular "promise". But as we all know, things they say in Blizzcon aren't promises (remember the “GC Promised Me A Pony”?), it's just a snapshot of where they are and what they're thinking at that particular moment. Bottom line - we asked for more "vanilla"-like system. We got it.

3/ Whaat do you think its forcing me to grind other than my determination to be better with my class? I'm sure I did more M+ than you did in your entire life. I've 4 legendaries. Only one of those can be qualified as BiS and its still nowhere close to how powerful the ring is.

Uh, ok, sure, you're fucking hardcore man.

But if you're so "determined", then you've decided to grind for them. So how is that a problem that Blizzard should solve? It doesn't even sound like a problem, you seem proud of 'doing more M+ than I've ever done in my life'. That's cool, keep grinding them.

If you've decided to be the crème de la crop, then go for it man, the more power to you. But again, why are you complaining?
If you don't like it or if you think it's "too much" then ease up or don't do it?

I don't really see why individual player decisions to grind stuff should somehow be Blizzard's problem to solve.