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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    Actually, it isn't.

    so you now agree that Bliz has (recently) made easy to play highly mobile specs strong in raids and might well in the future?


    Create whatever strawman you like.

    No strawman. You said that anyone, which directly included Roger because he posted before you said this, suggesting BM could be useful in NH, was lying.

    Literally the entire argument is based on hedging the bets that the movement of Nighthold is so punitive to MM that BM can overcome its extreme numerical shortcomings. There has not been evidence presented to this effect.

    Yes, that is the argument. And neither side of the discussion has presented meaningful quantitative evidence. I dont know why you think that makes one side liars ?

    So Mythic raid representation is not a good indication of how effective a current class design is?

    LOL - no it is certaintly not. Do you really think either raid representation or even raid effectiveness is an excellent measure to use of good class design? In fact that (high representation and/or high effectiveness) can just as easily be the result of bad broken design. . . . . . consider just for example a class design that had one (and only one) spell, which instant killed the boss, and then (after boss dead) instant killed the whole raid.That would be bad design, but would be rather 'effective' and you would pretty quickly see high representation in mythic progression.
    ...............
    Last edited by silverstarzs; 2017-01-01 at 09:30 PM.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by silverstarzs View Post
    ...............
    Wow that was a large post of deceptive and dishonest garbage. I'd point out that you not only strawmanned, but flat out misrepresented me, but its so patently obvious I don't even need to engage with your post.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    For my part (and I infer Azor's part), it's actually not about opposing MM and BM. It's about the hard data and pointing out the underlying reasons that should be completely obvious why Blizzard has kept BM in the lowest tier of DPS for the entire expansion and likely will keep it at the lowest tier all expansion. The BM fanboys and their reality denial have turned this into a MM vs BM situation. They dispute basic facts about reality, such as:

    1) MM is harder to play well than BM.
    2) BM has 35-40% rotational downtime and only 3 attacks to manage (4 on cleave), making it by far the easiest spec in the game to play.
    3) BM is the only ranged DPS class with perfect mobility.

    Because of the above 3 facts about reality, Blizzard will likely make sure BM is the worst raid spec in the game. DPS is balanced around mobility. DPS is balanced around skill cap. These are basic facts about game design and the reality denial of the BM fanboys requires them to rejects these basic concepts. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'll be more than happy to play BM if it's the top DPS spec. I'll laugh hysterically at the top of the DPS meter doing literally half the work of everyone else (40% rotational downtime) with absolutely no depth or nuance required to be there. I'll marvel at the extreme incompetence that led the Blizzard development team to make such an egregious design choice, and I'll love every minute of it.

    But Blizzard isn't stupid, and people need to get on board for that and stop lying to other people about how BM is going to be anything other than the worst raid spec in the game for very good, very basic design reasons.
    From someone who ONLY plays BM: Megotaku is right here and I've also put forth the same points on these forums as well. It would be HIGHLY imbalanced for BM, a fully mobile spec, to perform better than MM, a more immobile spec. That's not even considering the fact that MM is harder to play. And no, that doesn't mean that MM is [i]hard[i] to play; if that's what people get from this statement they need to read up on the concept of relative terms. Maybe putting it in these terms makes it clear: MM is easy, BM is easier.

    This is where you and I might disagree but I don't think BM is catastrophically worse than MM in raiding, at least not to the degree that it was in HFC. MM is the clear winner for MOST fights but I don't think being BM is a severe detriment to your raiding group unless you are pushing world firsts/server firsts on a competitive server. And that's how it should be: no matter how well balanced the class is you will still have one spec leading in most situations (think BM in 5.4.8 where BM and SV were pretty well balanced and equal but BM edged out most of the time) and right now BM is a lot easier to play than MM and is the ONLY spec that is fully mobile, therefore it should do less DPS. End of discussion really.

    So people should not be focusing on a spec that plays better, rather than one that performs better. This is my complaint about BM: it plays like utter shit. Pressing 3 buttons is shit. 40% downtime is shit. No, that's not just my opinion: I think that's fact. I don't buy any "some people LIKE downtime" argument. I also don't buy Blizzard's argument where apparently it's not bad because it's intentional because that's just backwards logic. And there's NO reason it should play like this: BM in WoD was a very well designed spec and actually took some thought (again it wasn't HARD but it took much more attention than current BM). I just can't fathom how Blizzard took so much time and effort to transform something well designed and received into something badly designed and received, and this goes for all class design fuck-ups this expansion of which there are many. If they literally did NOTHING and saved all that effort they would have a better end product than they do now. So basically I think they should improve BM's playstyle while making the necessary tuning adjustments to make sure it doesn't stray too far from where it is now. An example of this would be making Dire Beast have 2 charges BASELINE (bullshit legendary system doesn't count for the moment) while nerfing the damage of Kill Command/Stomp.

  4. #144
    @Megotaku77

    I think why many people are taking offense at what you're saying (despite being correct on some points) is the illogical extent of some of your statements.

    Saying BM is the worst raid spec is just flat wrong. Affliction lock, Survival hunter, Feral Druid (due to worst target swapping in game), couple of the tank specs, Arcane Mage, etc, are all certainly worse currently. Is it worse than MM on average, sure, and overall probably below the middle line of specs. But worst, or even close to that, not even remotely. And again, that's without legendary consideration. Having the belt particularly, and the ring, vastly improve that specs performance moreso than some of the specs above them with their BiS legs.

    And this argument that if a spec is easy to play it can't possibly ever be best is also just flat wrong. Besides the obvious historical example already brought up, has anyone here played enhance shaman in it's current state? I fuck around on that toon casually as an alt and I can beat mains in my raid group. It literally IS a one button spam class when it comes to damage, all the other buttons are just putting up buffs that you hit to maintain those buffs. Maybe slightly more to it, like hitting crash lightning so you can spam more Stormstrike, but honestly that's pretty much about it. And it's *currently* one of if not the best single target spec in the game.

    So if you want people to take you more seriously, stick to the actual facts please.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by FpicEail View Post
    This is where you and I might disagree but I don't think BM is catastrophically worse than MM in raiding [...]
    We do not. It's been buried, but that's more or less what I said in my very first post on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Saying BM is the worst raid spec is just flat wrong. Affliction lock, Survival hunter, Feral Druid (due to worst target swapping in game), couple of the tank specs, Arcane Mage, etc, are all certainly worse currently.
    Literally all of those specs are outperforming BM except for SV, which no one cares about. It could be the best spec in the game, but no one plays it. Less than 2% of Hunters raid on it and I doubt anyone at SimC even gives enough of a shit to keep its modules up to date.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#

    As you see from the performance data, BM is the worst ranged DPS spec in the game and among the worst specs in the game period.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Besides the obvious historical example already brought up, has anyone here played enhance shaman in it's current state? I fuck around on that toon casually as an alt and I can beat mains in my raid group. It literally IS a one button spam class when it comes to damage



    Ok, as per your wishes, let's keep it to the facts. Here are the facts: neither the 7.1 or 7.1.5 Enh Shaman DPS rotations reflect your assertions. Literally, nothing you said was correct. To my knowledge there has never been a top parsing spec that was as basement level skill wise as current BM since BM in Burning Crusade. Even Arcane in ToGC had to do a Burn/Conserve rotation to mix things up and that was considered too easy by the player base to be a top performing spec. It was replaced by Fire immediately upon the start of ICC.
    Last edited by Megotaku77; 2017-01-02 at 03:41 AM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    Literally all of those specs are outperforming BM except for SV, which no one cares about. It could be the best spec in the game, but no one plays it. Less than 2% of Hunters raid on it and I doubt anyone at SimC even gives enough of a shit to keep its modules up to date.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#

    As you see from the performance data, BM is the worst ranged DPS spec in the game and among the worst specs in the game period.
    I don't know why you're pulling logs, it's been obvious for so long that far more people, particularly the better players, are playing MM right now, so of course if you're just going off of log data you're only going to see parses from a huge percentage of the bad players that only play BM. I have been in raids with a not-terrible player with good BM legendaries and have seen how they perform firsthand. But if you only have 5 good people playing the spec out of 2,000 bad players, than yeah, their log average is going to look awful compared to MM. You're not proving a single fucking thing with that.



    Ok, as per your wishes, let's keep it to the facts. Here are the facts: neither the 7.1 or 7.1.5 Enh Shaman DPS rotations reflect your assertions. Literally, nothing you said was correct. To my knowledge there has never been a top parsing spec that was as basement level skill wise as current BM since BM in Burning Crusade. Even Arcane in ToGC had to do a Burn/Conserve rotation to mix things up and that was considered too easy by the player base to be a top performing spec. It was replaced by Fire immediately upon the start of ICC.
    If you look at the damage breakdown, the only thing that comes remotely close to Stormstrike's damage is Frostbrand, which is a button you hit about every 16 secs that adds passive damage to your autos. Rockbiter is debatably up there, but at best, there's really only 2 buttons that you hit consistently that heavily return damage in and of themselves. Like I said, most of it is just buffs you maintain that anyone could do. It's hands down the easiest spec I've played in a long, long time. Also, the graph is either referring to after 7.1.5 or is based off NH gear, because you sure as fuck don't spend 36 secs hitting Lightning Bolt on live. The spec right now is literally maintain your three buffs and spam Stormstrike, or hit Crash Lightning to hopefully proc the reset and spam more Stormstrikes, while hitting Boulderfist about every 5 secs or so in order to not cap at 2 charges. I literally just told you everything you need to do to parse at Enhance Shaman on live single target.

    So yes, stick to the facts, and if you don't know what those are, then shut up and let it go.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2017-01-02 at 04:15 AM.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    We do not. It's been buried, but that's more or less what I said in my very first post on this thread.


    Literally all of those specs are outperforming BM except for SV, which no one cares about. It could be the best spec in the game, but no one plays it. Less than 2% of Hunters raid on it and I doubt anyone at SimC even gives enough of a shit to keep its modules up to date.

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#

    As you see from the performance data, BM is the worst ranged DPS spec in the game and among the worst specs in the game .
    Linking overall damage doesn't do shit. Yes BM isn't great and is certainly one of the lowest, but there is fights were BM ranks average and some fights above MM as well. As I read in the other page in this very thread were you said Fire Mage was OP before. I guess you took that from overall boss damage too. Fire was only OP in lowlvl mythic+ and on xavius wich contributed to the OMG OPMAGE doing 2mill dps on a 10+ 2mill hp trashpack. The only nerf they did was 6% on pyro, but they buffed aoe in the same patch. And it was a wrong nerf, so they buffed pyro alot and nerfed the legendary instead in the current ptr(wich they should have done from the start)

    Back to the point. Overall damage does not mean shit. Clearly BM is a bit behind MM, but use better proof than overall damage.

    Marksman since 2006-2017+++
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-01-02 at 04:03 AM.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    I don't know why you're pulling logs, it's been obvious for so long that far more people, particularly the better players, are playing MM right now, so of course if you're just going off of log data you're only going to see parses from a huge percentage of the bad players that only play BM.
    The huge percentage of bad players in Mythic raids parsing at the 75th percentile? Umm... okay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    If you look at the damage breakdown, the only thing that comes remotely close to Stormstrike's damage is Frostbrand, which is a button you hit about every 16 secs that adds passive damage to your autos.
    Stormstrike was only 26.5% of damage output and Frostbrand was 16.72%. Significantly more than half your damage comes from all other damage sources.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Also, the graph is either referring to after 7.1.5 or is based off NH gear, because you sure as fuck don't spend 36 secs hitting Lightning Bolt on live.
    Correct, since SimC removed 7.1 Sims I included a live parse from a top 50 Enh Shaman on M-Guarm to represent 7.1 and the On-GCD DPS breakdown from 7.1.5. Whichever source you use, your assertion that Enh Shaman is a 1-button spec is fucking wrong. From damage sources to active time, there's no universe where your assertion was even slightly approaching accuracy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    So yes, stick to the facts, and if you don't know what those are, then shut up and let it go.
    Clearly, you should follow your own advice. From DPS sources to active time, the facts don't conform to your narrative. Put simply: you're lying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    As I read in the other page in this very thread were you said Fire Mage was OP before. I guess you took that from overall boss damage too.
    No, Fire Mage is not OP due to DPS. It was OP due to kit. It was competent in ST, Cleave, AoE, personal utility/survivability, on-demand burst, target switching and mobility. Really at this point it's not a question whether Fire Mage was OP. They were and have been nerfed badly as a result in 7.1.5. It's amazing people are still debating this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Back to the point. Overall damage does not mean shit. Clearly BM is a bit behind MM, but use better proof than overall damage.
    I didn't link overall damage. I linked average fight performance. The DPS was normalized. See the little button ticked that says "Aggregate Using Normalized Scores"? The purpose of the "score" is to average the rank of each class on each fight to give them an average ranking for the entire dungeon.

  9. #149
    Sure, let's get into a silly bullet point quote war over two very simple, non-disputable points that I made, because fuck it, you won't let it go, and I'm just drinking jager and farming AP anyway:

    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    The huge percentage of bad players in Mythic raids parsing at the 75th percentile? Umm... okay?
    I didn't say gutter stupid players, which is obviously at least 60% of the population of this game who may never even step into mythic raiding, but let's pretend for a second that when I say "good players" I'm referring to people who actually having a shot at staying in the 90%+ percentile like myself. The rest being people who only play BM spec in mythic raids.


    Stormstrike was only 26.5% of damage output and Frostbrand was 16.72%. Significantly more than half your damage comes from all other damage sources.
    He says "only" 26.5% of total damage, while the only other thing that breaks 10% is a 95% passive effect, half of the rest of the sources are passive effects from buttons you hit once about every 15-24 seconds apart. And since Lava Lash is showing as much damage as it does I'm guessing that's also either a 7.1.5 breakdown (which I'm not even fucking talking about, hello?) or it's someone with the legendary for it, because, again, you're not hitting that button at all unless a)you're capped on maelstrom AND b)you have no Stormstrike to hit. But please, for the love of all that is holy, keep trying to tell me how a spec that I HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED is hard because you can look up some fucking sim charts with no actual conception of how that spec is played on live.


    Correct, since SimC removed 7.1 Sims I included a live parse from a top 50 Enh Shaman on M-Guarm to represent 7.1 and the On-GCD DPS breakdown from 7.1.5. Whichever source you use, your assertion that Enh Shaman is a 1-button spec is fucking wrong. From damage sources to active time, there's no universe where your assertion was even slightly approaching accuracy.
    Ok, guess that answers the point above about where it came from. But let's just take the number 1 parse, shall we, and I'll go a step further and not cut out the cast count like you did on your screen:

    http://imgur.com/a/Ax7wG

    Hmmm...86 casts of stormstrike with the only other notable cast count being boulderfist. Sounds kind of like exactly what I said. The only other buttons being pushed were the buff ones as appropriate. I mean seriously, fucking stop. The enhance shaman in my last guild who holds some of the top parses for enhance shaman (Orbal, go look him up) in a guild that decisively never does parse runs even told me straight up how easy it is and that's exactly why I picked that as my alt so I wouldn't have to really think about how to do good damage. It literally is that easy.


    Clearly, you should follow your own advice. From DPS sources to active time, the facts don't conform to your narrative. Put simply: you're lying.
    I have quite demonstrably stayed within my knowledge bounds. You, however, are reaching to epic proportions to try to support a point that in essence you are right on: BM is quite easy to play, and it's not the top parsing spec and doesn't even have the capability of doing it. You're just simply going to far with it in what seems to be an attempt to "hush people up" on a forums about, which is just a stupid lost cause to start with.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2017-01-02 at 07:23 AM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Ok, guess that answers the point above about where it came from. But let's just take the number 1 parse, shall we, and I'll go a step further and not cut out the cast count like you did on your screen:
    It fit better on the forum post, which is why I cut it out. Without access to a sim active time, we're left to assume the cast count is an accurate reflection of typical GCD usage. So using the above, your Stormstrike rotation time is about 60%, although the parse you selected had a fair bit higher than average Stormstrike usage (probably due to above average procs). Even granting this: pretty normal for a lot of classes. In a different thread here I outlined filler usage for several classes (primarily ranged). I'm not here to argue that Stormstrike isn't used a lot or that Enh is hard to play well. I'm pointing out when you say Enhancement is a 1-button spec, you're wrong. And you are.

    It should also be pointed out that given the 7.1.5 Sim I provided the current playstyle of being top with even 60% (based on a stacked parse and a lot of assumptions) of your rotation being Stormstrike has been nerfed into oblivion. The current Sim shows Stormstrike has dropped to 26.7% of rotational usage. Given that Enh Shamans current playstyle were a result of mid-patch hotfixes you cannot even argue that Enh Shaman has been allowed to have this "top DPS" playstyle for an entire raid tier. So even despite the inarguable refutation of the argument that Enh is a 1-button spec, it hasn't even been that way for an entire tier of content and is being removed a week before the start of the next one. In short, you couldn't have possibly picked a worse example for your argument.
    Last edited by Megotaku77; 2017-01-02 at 07:40 AM.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    It fit better on the forum post, which is why I cut it out. Without access to a sim active time, we're left to assume the cast count is an accurate reflection of typical GCD usage. So using the above, your Stormstrike rotation time is about 60%, although the parse you selected had a fair bit higher than average Stormstrike usage (probably due to above average procs). Even granting this: pretty normal for a lot of classes. In a different thread here I outlined filler usage for several classes (primarily ranged). I'm not here to argue that Stormstrike isn't used a lot or that Enh is hard to play well. I'm pointing out when you say Enhancement is a 1-button spec, you're wrong. And you are.

    It should also be pointed out that given the 7.1.5 Sim I provided the current playstyle of being top with even 60% (based on a stacked parse and a lot of assumptions) of your rotation being Stormstrike has been nerfed into oblivion. The current Sim shows Stormstrike has dropped to 26.7% of rotational usage. Given that Enh Shamans current playstyle were a result of mid-patch hotfixes you cannot even argue that Enh Shaman has been allowed to have this "top DPS" playstyle for an entire raid tier. So even despite the inarguable refutation of the argument that Enh is a 1-button spec, it hasn't even been that way for an entire tier of content and is being removed a week before the start of the next one. In short, you couldn't have possibly picked a worse example for your argument.
    Fitting better on a post is a pretty fucking weak excuse for not including a bit of information that is pretty damn integral to the point I was making. And as far as "above average proc count", sure, enhance is vulnerable to the RNG that pretty much every class is, but their proc rate on Stormbringer (the reset for Stormstrike which also grants a 2nd cast and at reduced maelstrom cost) is pretty high given their kit and all you really need is the appendages trinket from Ilg. Which if you look at all the top players there they're all using, as the hits from it procs can also trigger it.

    And at the end of the day, no, I'm not wrong. There isn't technically a "one button spec" in the game. But Enhance is about as close as it comes when it's net performance is basically dictated on how many times you can hit that one button in a fight. All of the rest of what they do is pretty secondary as those damage charts pretty clearly show.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    Fitting better on a post is a pretty fucking weak excuse for not including a bit of information that is pretty damn integral to the point I was making.
    It was? When cast count was included it weakened your position greatly. It showed you cherry picked a sample with a vastly above average proc count, compared to my more typical screenshot. Even then, when stacking the data as much as possible and giving every benefit of the doubt, Stormstrike only accounted for 60% of rotational time and less than half of your damage output. Completely average among many classes, and that's unfairly stacking the deck in your favor. Did you even check the link of active DPS time for other classes I provided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    And at the end of the day, no, I'm not wrong. There isn't technically a "one button spec" in the game. But Enhance is about as close as it comes when it's net performance is basically dictated on how many times you can hit that one button in a fight. All of the rest of what they do is pretty secondary as those damage charts pretty clearly show.
    So is BM even more of a one-button spec? Just looking at parses, their damage output from KC is at the same level as a percentage of DPS as your stacked sample and substantially higher than average Enh Shaman parses (40-42%). Is Elemental Shaman a one-button spec? 65% of their rotation is spent casting lightning bolt according to active time I linked in that thread you never bothered to look at.

    It's just crazy how every defender of BM is wrong... about everything. Never right, even by accident.
    Last edited by Megotaku77; 2017-01-02 at 08:17 AM.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Megotaku77 View Post
    It was? When cast count was included it weakened your position greatly. It showed you cherry picked a sample with a vastly above average proc count, compared to my more typical screenshot. Even then, when stacking the data as much as possible and giving every benefit of the doubt, Stormstrike only accounted for 60% of rotational time and less than half of your damage output. Completely average among many classes, and that's unfairly stacking the deck in your favor. Did you even check the link of active DPS time for other classes I provided?
    I looked through the top six parses and they're all pretty similar, about 80+ casts of Stormstrike, 25-35 casts of Boulderfist (the only other button with a significant direct damage return), and around 12-15 casts of the two buff buttons (that do insignificant direct damage but put up a passive buff to autoattacks that adds up over a fight). Literally everything else is a 1 or 2 minute cooldown or passive procs from trinkets or auto-attacks, with an occasional Lava Lash because RNG. It would stand to reason that if the further you go down that list and the number of Stormstrikes start to drop than that pretty much underscores the importance of hitting that button as many times in a fight as you can. I don't see how that weakens my position any, whatsoever.


    So is BM even more of a one-button spec? Just looking at parses, their damage output from KC is at the same level as a percentage of DPS as your stacked sample and substantially higher than average Enh Shaman parses (40-42%). Is Elemental Shaman a one-button spec? 65% of their rotation is spent casting lightning bolt according to active time I linked in that thread you never bothered to look at.

    It's just crazy how every defender of BM is wrong... about everything. Never right, even by accident.
    The argument wasn't even about the "one button spec" factor and I'm not saying Enhance Shaman is easier or harder to play than BM (they're about equal imo), it was about Blizzard never allowing extremely simplistic specs to play a top or highly desired raiding spec. Enhance fits both that criteria and it literally just happened in the last few months. And if you'll pull your unjustly big head out of your ass, you'd have read I agreed with you that BM is sub-par currently, just fucking let it go.

    In truth, I don't think Blizzard gives a flying fuck about a specs perceived "difficulty" playing, because that's just such a subjective term in the long run. If anything currently I think they're more concerned with how many people are playing a current spec and trying to piss off as few people as possible during their reworks in 7.1.5. Obviously there's outliers, like Fire Mage, where it was just so wonky and OP that something had to be done, and Affliction Lock, that was so terrible it needed brought up significantly. But by and large, I just don't see the validity of that particular argument at all.
    Last edited by Mavick; 2017-01-02 at 08:35 AM.

  14. #154
    Fire mages are overall buffed on ptr as of now, only thing wich is removed is icy floes

    And no you linked the overall damage all bosses, you have to see boss by boss to see how strong a specc is.

    Name it what you want, average boss damage is the what we others call overall damage. The only thing you got correct is that BM is one of the weaker, I merely advice not to use overall(normalized average) wich can be false.

    And Mavick: Really? If we go boss by boss and also overall(wich is silly)affliction is better tha fire and affliction is the horrible spec and needs buffing while fire mage wich then is worse, are op and needs nerfing?

    Are you guys beliveing your own words?

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    And Mavick: Really? If we go boss by boss and also overall(wich is silly)affliction is better tha fire and affliction is the horrible spec and needs buffing while fire mage wich then is worse, are op and needs nerfing?

    Are you guys beliveing your own words?
    L2Read, I've specifically been talking about live through the entirety of my posts, and I've pointed that out multiple times. If you're actually telling me that fire is worse than affliction on live, you need professional help.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    L2Read, I've specifically been talking about live through the entirety of my posts, and I've pointed that out multiple times. If you're actually telling me that fire is worse than affliction on live, you need professional help.
    Nice one, check logs. I am also talking about live. They are equal in the raids with affliction slightly ahead, in m+ fire is ahead on live.

    Try to actually read logs, maybe you need professional education to learn how to comprehend numbers. Back to basic.

    Just to inform you: 4 out of 7 in EN affliction is ahead. 1 fight each in tov and one(helya) were it is 5k dps difference. How you make that affliction alot worse than fire is something I can't comprehend tho. People taking numbers out of their asses does not work.

    Back to MM vs BM tho.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-01-02 at 10:41 AM.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Nice one, check logs. I am also talking about live. They are equal in the raids with affliction slightly ahead, in m+ fire is ahead on live.

    Try to actually read logs, maybe you need professional education to learn how to comprehend numbers. Back to basic.

    Just to inform you: 4 out of 7 in EN affliction is ahead. 1 fight each in tov and one(helya) were it is 5k dps difference. How you make that affliction alot worse than fire is something I can't comprehend tho. People taking numbers out of their asses does not work.

    Back to MM vs BM tho.
    If you're going to spout that nonsense, how about you actually post the logs to prove it. I'm not going to jump simply because you pull something out of your ass when I 100% gaurantee you it is wrong.

    Edit: Looked at top M Guarm logs and M Xavius (probably the most aoe centric fight that both has a reasonable number of people having completed and doesn't have a restriction on the amount of people to cleave like Ilg). Fire is ahead of Affliction by about 90-70k on Guarm on top parses and 200-100k (lol) on Xavius. And if you throw in Helya (the most relevant fight for most good players right now), Fire again blows Affliction out. So, again, wtf are you on about? Are you looking at the shitter 75th percentile or something that nobody cares about? Fire actually isn't as easy as I've seen some people try to say, and since it was such a glamor spec when Legion launched I wager there's probably a higher percentage of bad players playing that spec than even hunter which has a much higher population. I haven't played affliction, so I hate to comment, but I wouldn't be surprised if the comparison between Fire and Affliction were similar to MM and BM: one is a bit harder to play but a much higher ceiling to an easier to play spec that requires circumstances (like good legendaries/procs) to even be decent.

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Mavick View Post
    If you're going to spout that nonsense, how about you actually post the logs to prove it. I'm not going to jump simply because you pull something out of your ass when I 100% gaurantee you it is wrong.

    Edit: Looked at top M Guarm logs and M Xavius (probably the most aoe centric fight that both has a reasonable number of people having completed and doesn't have a restriction on the amount of people to cleave like Ilg). Fire is ahead of Affliction by about 90-70k on Guarm on top parses and 200-100k (lol) on Xavius. And if you throw in Helya (the most relevant fight for most good players right now), Fire again blows Affliction out. So, again, wtf are you on about? Are you looking at the shitter 75th percentile or something that nobody cares about? Fire actually isn't as easy as I've seen some people try to say, and since it was such a glamor spec when Legion launched I wager there's probably a higher percentage of bad players playing that spec than even hunter which has a much higher population. I haven't played affliction, so I hate to comment, but I wouldn't be surprised if the comparison between Fire and Affliction were similar to MM and BM: one is a bit harder to play but a much higher ceiling to an easier to play spec that requires circumstances (like good legendaries/procs) to even be decent.
    Hard to discuss with someone whos delusional. I am checking both 75 and 90%, even 99%.

    You seem to check a player dps vs another player, it does not work! You have to check the real statistic. If you are gonna argue with that you just lost the argument. On Guarm at 99% fire is 35k ahead, not 90k as you try to prove.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...962&dataset=99

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...008&dataset=90

    M helya: Fire is ahead of whopping 1k dps at 90%(33k at 99%)
    Xavius: Fire ahead with whopping 10k dps(35 at 99%)

    Lets see some other logs:
    Dragons of Nightmare: Affli ahead with 20k https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1854
    Cenarius: Affli ahead with 120k(sorry its actually 137k) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1877
    Odyn: affli ahead with 72k https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...958&dataset=99

    All at 99% on mythic, at 90% it doesnt change much. 99% are the outliars so there will be cheesing, bis legs etc. But you wanted proof.

    Its funny tho, how you just take the most fire-favorable fights and ignore the rest. When fire is ahead its with 10k-35k, when affli is ahead it is 20-120k dps.

    Get a grip, discussion is over.

    Edited to reflect more 99% percentiles.
    2nd Edit: Fire mages are shit easy to play

    MM vs BM next.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2017-01-02 at 11:57 AM.

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Hard to discuss with someone whos delusional. I am checking both 75 and 90%, even 99%.

    You seem to check a player dps vs another player, it does not work! You have to check the real statistic. If you are gonna argue with that you just lost the argument. On Guarm at 99% fire is 35k ahead, not 90k as you try to prove.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...962&dataset=99

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...008&dataset=90

    M helya: Fire is ahead of whopping 1k dps at 90%(33k at 99%)
    Xavius: Fire ahead with whopping 10k dps(35 at 99%)

    Lets see some other logs:
    Dragons of Nightmare: Affli ahead with 20k https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1854
    Cenarius: Affli ahead with 120k(sorry its actually 137k) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=99&boss=1877
    Odyn: affli ahead with 72k https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...958&dataset=99

    All at 99% on mythic, at 90% it doesnt change much. 99% are the outliars so there will be cheesing, bis legs etc. But you wanted proof.

    Its funny tho, how you just take the most fire-favorable fights and ignore the rest. When fire is ahead its with 10k-35k, when affli is ahead it is 20-120k dps.

    Get a grip, discussion is over.

    Edited to reflect more 99% percentiles.
    2nd Edit: Fire mages are shit easy to play

    MM vs BM next.
    I don't know why I let myself get drawn into these idiotic conversations. Congrats on making me fall into the same trap that Megataku has.

    Ok, you want to look at the table below. The one where 2300 more players have decided to play a certain spec as opposed to another. For reference, that's 2485 Fire mage parses to 185 Affliction Lock. That in and of itself should tell you something.

    And holy shit stop looking at the average parses, which is where you are getting your numbers from. When you have THOUSANDS more parses of a particular spec, of which there are going to be way more terrible players contributing to that number to drag it down, you end up with this inaccurate representation of what a spec is capable of. In that case the max output is what you need to look at to answer the question of "if I play well, what is this spec capable of". Those kinds of questions are what good players ask themselves and are able to answer when they determine what to play. When something is 70-200k more than another at top performance, like fire mage to affliction lock, there is no comparison there.

  20. #160
    Moving on . . . back to the OP's question . . . .

    We have two meaningful 'facts'.

    #1 is that the vast majority of raiding hunters have invested (AP and Leg grinds) in MM & Bliz has explicitly said that they will strive to not make that sort of investment obsolete. That is at least a statement of general intent which would imply MM will continue to be 'the raiding spec'. (note: although, yes, it is not a 'promise' or 'commitment' and they may not implement/maintain that intent in all cases) .

    #2 the Bliz devs dont seem to pay much attention to BM, nor to have much understanding or sympathy for it (note the lack of Dev discussion on all the BM feedback and that stupid Dev tweet about how a well functioning pet AI would be an 'I win' button). This would also suggest that BM issues may not be 'fixed'.

    And one 'observation':

    #3 There are some movement heavy fights in NH, and at least on progression (may be different on Farm) there is some educated opinion that BM may be preferred for several bosses ('a dead dps does no dps' and 'mechanics trumps dps').

    All that suggests (a) odds on are that MM will continue to be the main raiding spec, and (b) it may be smart to develop your BM spec, especially if you already have decent MM leg's and AP, in case there are BM favorable bosses (essentially Roger's point).



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note: the argument that BM is 'too simple and too mobile and Bliz would never make it a strong raiding spec' is NOT a strong point. History contradicts it (eg Bliz HAS made easy and mobile specs strong), and Bliz's own comments are ambiguous on whether they currently generally agree with this philosophy or not.

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