Worth switching from DK to Fury for nighthold / 7.1.5 ?

[Deleted]

Haha nice to mention a minor nerf to HB but dont mention any buffs at all. Im pretty sure the massive buff to Breath of Sindragosa will make a huge impact.

The T19-bonuses dont suck by any means, not Arms good, but OK.

You mean the huge buff to a skill that is extremely hard to use, very punishing when you screw it up, and that means any boss/mechanics movement will make your DPS tank down to nothing for a good minute and a half, at least? It can only be used in raids too, it's useless in M+. They also cut down massively on the AoE it once did, anyway.

The thing is, Arms is already ahead by a lot, the only time Arms ever lost to Frost was on long 2-target cleave fights or in big sustained AoE, and even then, not by much. Any time it involved long single target phases, Arms would come out ahead by a good 15-20%. Arms is getting a flat blanket buff, on top of one of the best tier sets in this upcoming raid. Frost is going to still be good at what it was, which is sustained AoE damage, but to say that DK is in a better state than Warrior (which is what the first guy I answered to was saying) is simply not true, and could only be coming from someone that hasn't played a DK in this expansion.
And this is speaking of DPS alone, not even factoring in that Frost has the worst movement in the game and very reduced utility, the only unique thing they bring is Grip that doesn't even work at all on raids for the most part. Brez is nice and all, but it's not even close to unique, and you almost always have at least another 2 or 3 in the raid. A temporary 10% HP buff for the entire raid is far more useful than the grip would ever be. If they gave Gorefiend's Grasp back to the DPS specs as a talent, maybe we'd have a case, but not in the current state.

[Slagge]

You mean the huge buff to a skill that is extremely hard to use, very punishing when you screw it up, and that means any boss/mechanics movement will make your DPS tank down to nothing for a good minute and a half, at least? It can only be used in raids too, it's useless in M+. They also cut down massively on the AoE it once did, anyway.

The thing is, Arms is already ahead by a lot, the only time Arms ever lost to Frost was on long 2-target cleave fights or in big sustained AoE, and even then, not by much. Any time it involved long single target phases, Arms would come out ahead by a good 15-20%. Arms is getting a flat blanket buff, on top of one of the best tier sets in this upcoming raid. Frost is going to still be good at what it was, which is sustained AoE damage, but to say that DK is in a better state than Warrior (which is what the first guy I answered to was saying) is simply not true, and could only be coming from someone that hasn't played a DK in this expansion.
And this is speaking of DPS alone, not even factoring in that Frost has the worst movement in the game and very reduced utility, the only unique thing they bring is Grip that doesn't even work at all on raids for the most part. Brez is nice and all, but it's not even close to unique, and you almost always have at least another 2 or 3 in the raid. A temporary 10% HP buff for the entire raid is far more useful than the grip would ever be. If they gave Gorefiend's Grasp back to the DPS specs as a talent, maybe we'd have a case, but not in the current state.

Well it is quite hard to use but the people with the right legs and skill will make some really good dps if the numbers from ptr goes live.
Where do you get your 15-20% from? Mythic Guarm, the only boss with neraly those numbers?

If we are talking M+ (which we didnt) im pretty sure Frost DK´s are in a really good spot due to brez/grip/stun/slows as well as good aoe with frostscythe and can use BoS just as a CD.

Sure arms get a flat buff but both bis legs are getting nerfed quite a bit (you might get some new good ones though, idk)
The movement part is correct though, its insanely bad.

[Deleted]

Well it is quite hard to use but the people with the right legs and skill will make some really good dps if the numbers from ptr goes live.
Where do you get your 15-20% from? Mythic Guarm, the only boss with neraly those numbers?

If we are talking M+ (which we didnt) im pretty sure Frost DK´s are in a really good spot due to brez/grip/stun/slows as well as good aoe with frostscythe and can use BoS just as a CD.

Sure arms get a flat buff but both bis legs are getting nerfed quite a bit (you might get some new good ones though, idk)
The movement part is correct though, its insanely bad.

Well, the only bosses where Frost gets close to Arms numbers is where you can pad off multiple adds, which inflates the numbers on logs massively, so we'll never get to a consensus here. We can obviously agree that Arms is leagues ahead of Frost in ST though, while Frost is simply better on cleave and sustained AoE. In practice, this leads to Arms being the better spec in raid content though, and much better in progression, since almost raids almost never have AoE DPS checks, while there's always an ST one. Most AoE is very shortlived, in which case, Arms can compete just fine with anything else.

In M+, Frost obviously comes off ahead, definitely agree. Arms isn't as bad as people make it out to be, you can keep pretty high rage at all times even without the gloves, the short BC cooldown means it can be used almost always once per trash pack (unless it's some really low M+, ofc), and Arms also packs a 20s on demand AoE stun (unlike Frost's delayed stun), so it's not all bad. Fury comes much closer to Frost than Arms.
I personally would never bring BoS to a M+, by the way. Cooldown is way too high for it to be usable more than once between bosses in most dungeons, and bosses die too fast for it to be better than the current specs already used. You have to change the spec so much to fit BoS, that you'd lose way too much AoE damage and gimp yourself in the end, for barely better DPS on a boss. That's simply not the reason people bring Frost DKs to M+, so I don't think anyone will do that, tbh.

Both bis legs get nerfed for Arms, ye, but at the same time, you get insane tier and the Gul'dan trinket, which increase the overall uptime of BC by something like 50% (from around 20% uptime to 32-33% uptime from my own sims), which means that the rage nerf on gloves gets mitigated heavily to the point where it doesn't matter. Plus, you get 2 or 3 extra GCDs per BC, which is massive.

Frost and Arms are pretty different and good at different things, but since OP was asking specifically for Nighthold, I simply can't see why people would say that Frost is in a better state than Arms. Makes no sense to me. Arms will see a big power spike, when it's already strong, while Frost will continue being stable middle of the pack, maybe a bit above average with the right legendaries. That's the way I see it.

[Deleted]

DK is in a better state than warrior due to CDs and utility but with bad legendaries you're fucked, no matter what class you play.

Frost DK is.
Unholy at the moment is in a worse spot than Fury and Arms.

[Aggrophobic]

Frost DK is.
Unholy at the moment is in a worse spot than Fury and Arms.

Oh for sure.

[Yhcti]

I don't see a single log that proves that DK is better than Warrior, can anyone confirm? I see Fury Warriors shred through M+, and Arms shredding it at 15+, I don't see many Frost's shredding through it, and I don't see many Frost DK's shredding raids... I'd also much rather have a Warriors mobility :/

[barackohmama]

I don't see a single log that proves that DK is better than Warrior, can anyone confirm? I see Fury Warriors shred through M+, and Arms shredding it at 15+, I don't see many Frost's shredding through it, and I don't see many Frost DK's shredding raids... I'd also much rather have a Warriors mobility :/

why would you go frost dk though, when UH dk is better? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=15&metric=dps

[Yhcti]

why would you go frost dk though, when UH dk is better? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...=15&metric=dps

Well, I personally wouldn't go Frost as I don't like anything apart from Frostscythe, I however, find Unholy extremely fun. If only it had a little more mobility unholy has been my favourite spec in WoW since it was released, only reason I don't play it now is because the mobility is killing me. I'd much rather than Rogue, Warrior or DH :x

[Leyl]

I just stated this exact thing in another Fury DPS main thread.

The difference in between the two specs (Arms/Fury) is very marginal, and can be attributed to everyone frontloading Arms spec from expansion launch. This is reflected in TOV as an exmaple. Arms is not miles ahead, and if it ever does get miles ahead it will be nerfed. Blizzard has already said that; and you can look to Fire Spec Mages as a crystal clear echo of that truth.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#dataset=90

Even in EN; its still only a slight difference of 5 points in Warcraftlogs's rating system.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#dataset=90

This is on Mythic; using a 90th percentile sample over the last two weeks. Unless you're in some bleeding edge, try-hard, must be top 100 USA/EU guild it is not going to matter which of the two DPS specs you play. I'm pretty fed up with the community at this point spouting literally false BS about Fury being "miles" behind Arms when people don't look at points invested, equal item level, and what raid difficulty, and player skill are all equal. They are neck and neck. That being said, SimC is also not accurate as no fight is a straight up "lets Execute until heaven" and no fight is a straight "standstill and hump the mob" boss anymore. Even then, there's only a 30K dps difference between the two as per SimC which I still don't even find accurate, or realistic.