MM vs BM PVE in 7.1.5

[lolstorm]

Sorry for asking this question here, but I didn't want to make a topic for just the question I have. Is there some place I can find all of the 7.1.5 ptr notes consolidated in one place? Thanks!

[Mavick]

Seriously, Mavick and company: BM is bad right now in every way. If you want to play it? Then go ahead and play it, that's fine. But don't be trying to make it out to be something other than the pile of utter shit that it is to justify your decision. And mind you, I'm saying that as someone who played BM all through Wrath, when it was so bad Ghostcrawler called it a spec that the company failed at the end of the expansion.

Clarification since your reading comprehension level is terrible: I never said BM was as good as MM currently. I entered this thread merely saying it wasn't garbage as one person in particularly kept repeating, and factors like legendaries improve it's performance pretty significantly. Since then I got pulled off target by morons who seem to think average damage numbers actually mean something relevant to actual good players looking at what spec has the most potential for damage and reinforce that notion with arguments like "RNG" as if that doesn't apply to every spec in the game atm to some degree.

[WeaszelB]

Sorry for asking this question here, but I didn't want to make a topic for just the question I have. Is there some place I can find all of the 7.1.5 ptr notes consolidated in one place? Thanks!

Wowhead has a compilation of all the class changes. http://www.wowhead.com/news=258472/7...rom-all-builds

[Bepples]

Overall I think the Hunter class in general got a pretty bad design pass this expansion and outside of Warlocks is probably the class most in need of a new expansion to wipe the slate and try again.

When people complained about the state of hunters in the testing phase, Blizzard's forum white knights said "people complain about all class changes; this is nothing different. some people just don't like change". They still do say this. And you DO get people that complain at every class revamp, whether or not it improves the class.

What they cannot deny, however, is that in no previous instance of a class revamp did you have people saying that there needs to be ANOTHER revamp of a class just to fix everything before the upcoming one has exited the testing phase. That's how you know that this one was uniquely bad. It was dead on arrival.

I have to wonder why Blizzard is punishing themselves: all this wasted effort trying to re-invent the wheel ended up with a much worse off class and now they will need to do it all over again just to fix the mess they made the first time (assuming they can get it right the second time too). It would have been far less work for them and far less pain for everyone involved if they just made an iterative improvement on the previous model.

Instead they just immerse themselves in total denial and delusion, repeating practised buzzwords like "class fantasy" and "design vision" to deflect all complaints. Shameful.

[Khrux]

#ClassFantasy is basically the cause of where we're at now.

1. Trying to make MM a sniper, standing still taking aim with precisely timed shots. What they delivered was low tier ST dps(sniper), monstrous aoe/cleave(not a sniper) and now the 3rd/4th(?) iteration of this poor vulnerability mechanic. Ret and Arms both work on vulnerable windows and have really strong ST dps.... wtf is with MM being so aoe focused when its a spec called marksmanship?!

2. Trying to make BM.... I dunno, the class clickers/new players play? They probably nailed it if that's what they wanted. Not sure what the overall goal here was, demonology for all its failings its the *ultimate* pet class so it seems all the development for pet based rotations went to them instead. Even Survival got a "combo attack" for master and pet instead of BM, why u no gief flanking *shot*?! Survival could do with losing a skill or two...

3. Trying to make Survival the new hotness with a throwback to Vanilla WoW, adding a melee option to a previously all ranged class. They actually delivered, its just not what anyone asked for or wanted. Although the delivery reminds me of that scene in Ace Ventura where he is playing the part of a UPS guy and kicking the box labeled "fragile" down the street until he hands it over all smashed up with the contents inside in pieces.

Here's to 8.0 and the next iteration of Hunter, maybe survival will become a healer spec or they'll finally introduce another mail using class that is ranged and we'll take a back seat :P

[Uko]

To the guy above me as cool as a non dps spec would be I don't think that they could ever make hunters a healer. A tank would make more sense with you using your pet to take a blow for you now and then while fighting toe to toe with it. But that's all wishful thinking for anything would be better than this melee survival imo. I miss the dots and explosive shots and such from before it got nerfed to the ground lol.

[Wisconsen]

I always thought they missed a great opportunity to make survival a tanking spec. Revamp spirit link to work similar to monk stagger with the damage shunted to the pet, and some kind of armor multiplier like they give the leather tanks. That would give us at least 1 tank, 1 ranged, 1 melee, and 1 healer of each armor type for maximizing Mythic+ gear sharing runs, as well as give hunters a melee spec, that isn't just another melee DPS.

Flavor and Class Fantasy wise it could work pretty well too, things like Bear Trap as a taunt, Explosive Trap as a AoE Dot (could function like immo aura for DH tanks, but on the target instead of yourself), Aspects of the Turtle and Monkey as tank CDs, and so on.

I really just think they didn't want to add more than 1 tank in the xpack and DHs already had the spot. IMO it would have been significantly better than just another melee DPS spec.

But then again i could just be spouting crazy, it's been known to happen from time to time.

[Saulburn]

Is something like this too hard to engineer? Would it seem fair? Delusional? (consider comparisons between people of aproximate skill)

BM - cleave niche
easy to grasp / hard to master
middle of the pack DPS or situationally top dps

Surv - spread AoE niche or multi dot class
easy to grasp / harder to master
at least first third top DPS either in ST or AoE fights

MM - single target niche
hard to grasp / hardest to master
top dps on single target

[Tyze]

Will Sidewinders be a thing still in 7.1.5? I mean I could go for it for 1 or 2 fights but not 24/7

[Deleted]

I admit I do miss the old survival.. multishot applying serpent sting and LnL proccing a barrage of explosive shots... that was by far my favourite spec ever in WoW... such a shame they ravaged it I suppose it's sort of there in Survival still, except Serpent Sting sucks balls now and explosive shot is a static dot that is pointless ifthe target moves

[Sunslayer]

I love the MM vs BM argument why should it stop? How amazing is it for a class to have MULTIPLE specs that people love to play and perform rather well. Its a 1st world problem and its a good sign. Dks, wars and rogues and soon mages (mythic+ wise) have the same issue where multiple specs are competitive. It helps community forming and a spirit of competitiveness which makes people thrive! Keep it up blizz and Banard and that little bastard Megataco77, and keep it up with the pointless posts on this topic

I would agree if Legendarys didnt lock you into a spec. I would also agree if we didnt have to refarm AP and BiS relics to reroll BM or MM. The only problem with MM mechanically getting shafted to perform poorly on the high-movement fights in NH is that rerolling, is a real problem. Many of us, have jobs and kids and we put months of farming into our MM weapons.

[Deleted]

Will Sidewinders be a thing still in 7.1.5? I mean I could go for it for 1 or 2 fights but not 24/7

SW-Viability depends on fight mechanics. For pure spread cleave aoe fights it will be still nr.1 but as long as your tank is able to stack the enemies Trick Shot performs better. As far as i know Piercing Shot will be viable for PvP but is to unreliable in PvE because it fucks up your rotation and is close to useless on non-crit.

- - - Updated - - -

#ClassFantasy is basically the cause of where we're at now.

1. Trying to make MM a sniper, standing still taking aim with precisely timed shots. What they delivered was low tier ST dps(sniper), monstrous aoe/cleave(not a sniper) and now the 3rd/4th(?) iteration of this poor vulnerability mechanic. Ret and Arms both work on vulnerable windows and have really strong ST dps.... wtf is with MM being so aoe focused when its a spec called marksmanship?!

Here's to 8.0 and the next iteration of Hunter, maybe survival will become a healer spec or they'll finally introduce another mail using class that is ranged and we'll take a back seat :P

Currently MM is one of the top 1/3 ST and AoE specs with 7.1.5, in addition extradordinary strong while getting your hands on new leg gloves, p4 bonus and trinket.
But I guess you are correct when u ask for a more sniper-like MM and not a machine gun on two feet.

[Khrux]

Currently MM is one of the top 1/3 ST and AoE specs with 7.1.5, in addition extraordinary strong while getting your hands on new leg gloves, p4 bonus and trinket.

Not sure where you're getting this "top 1/3 ST" from? Simcraft is completely useless currently as the APLs are not working or setup correctly for alot of classes. Even taking simcraft with a pinch of salt, MM is projected to be 12th out of 26. If you take out the duplicates(alt builds for Assassin/Spriest) then MM is 12th out of 24. Dead centre of the pack.

Also the 4pc will 100% be nerfed, anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and only setting themselves up for disappointment. The MM set is a near 20% output increase, where almost all other sets are in the 5-10% range(some even less - BM/Feral) with other outliers like Arms Warrior/Subtlety Rogue in the 15-18% range like MM.

If Blizzard don't have the foresight to see what happens when hunters get 4pc, gloves, boots and trinket then they are retards and if anyone in this community thinks it will last long once it happens, well you know what you are also :P

[Deleted]

i do not like where MM is heading, it seems like it got hit by a huge nerf bat but it is not something that I have not forseen

[Deleted]

Not sure where you're getting this "top 1/3 ST" from? Simcraft is completely useless currently as the APLs are not working or setup correctly for alot of classes. Even taking simcraft with a pinch of salt, MM is projected to be 12th out of 26. If you take out the duplicates(alt builds for Assassin/Spriest) then MM is 12th out of 24. Dead centre of the pack.

Also the 4pc will 100% be nerfed, anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional and only setting themselves up for disappointment. The MM set is a near 20% output increase, where almost all other sets are in the 5-10% range(some even less - BM/Feral) with other outliers like Arms Warrior/Subtlety Rogue in the 15-18% range like MM.

If Blizzard don't have the foresight to see what happens when hunters get 4pc, gloves, boots and trinket then they are retards and if anyone in this community thinks it will last long once it happens, well you know what you are also :P

I'm alrdy taking Simcraft with a lot of salt
Because it is using supoptimal haste values and relics for MM causing a 5-10% dmg loss and patchwork fights wont occure in most situations.
Next point is that other classes which deal a little more dmg than MM got more movement issues than MM leading to a higher dmg loss in comparison, same with melee classes(boss/adduptime).
After all it's a fact that MM profits most from his his set that's why it was alrdy nerfed and I don't think that they'll nerf MM'S 4P very hard(maybe 50%>30/35%) because it's Blizzard's bandaid fix for the ridiculous amount of focus costs of AiS.
I agree that 4P, gloves+boot+trinket combo is just to strong and it's just bad that 2 legendaries are mandatory for MM to be competitive on mythic raiding.

- - - Updated - - -

i do not like where MM is heading, it seems like it got hit by a huge nerf bat but it is not something that I have not forseen

Why did MM got a huge nerf bat?
ST increased on both SW and Non-SW-Builds.
AoE on Non-SW-Builds largely increased, only SW-Builds are hit by Marked Shot nerf.

Reduced fokus pool doesn't do much on Non-SW-Builds because u are rarely overcapping and is just annoying on SW-Builds because u have to wait 2,4 seconds to hit specific PS intervalls leading to overcapping focus in some situations.

[Firebyrd]

Clarification since your reading comprehension level is terrible: I never said BM was as good as MM currently. I entered this thread merely saying it wasn't garbage as one person in particularly kept repeating, and factors like legendaries improve it's performance pretty significantly. Since then I got pulled off target by morons who seem to think average damage numbers actually mean something relevant to actual good players looking at what spec has the most potential for damage and reinforce that notion with arguments like "RNG" as if that doesn't apply to every spec in the game atm to some degree.

My reading comprehension is just fine. BM /is/ garbage right now. The personal insults Megotaku throws around are highly irritating, but he's not wrong that BM is garbage right now. You remind me of a WW monk I knew in MoP that refused to believe that dual wielding was better number wise. He even said in a forum post once that he didn't care about people's "numbers" and "facts," that 2-handers were better.

The evidence is quite clear that BM is garbage, both statistically and anecdotally.

[Mavick]

My reading comprehension is just fine. BM /is/ garbage right now. The personal insults Megotaku throws around are highly irritating, but he's not wrong that BM is garbage right now. You remind me of a WW monk I knew in MoP that refused to believe that dual wielding was better number wise. He even said in a forum post once that he didn't care about people's "numbers" and "facts," that 2-handers were better.

The evidence is quite clear that BM is garbage, both statistically and anecdotally.

There is no evidence saying it's "garbage" actually, the closest thing you'd get to it is logs but what non-simple minded people will realize about that is that extremely few good players play it right now. Most good players, intelligently, picked MM to start with and as we all know in this xpac once you pick a spec you're pretty much locked into that for awhile. So of course BM logs, which are probably 95% generated from bad players across the board are going to look lower.

And in fact, it was pointed out early on by both of the only actual theorycrafters (i.e. not random idiots who come in mostly incorrectly re-spouting what they originally said) for the class that the whole BM/MM thing was determined at the start because MM was more effective at a lower trait count than BM when Mythic EN opened, not so much because one just so far outclasses the other. Obviously there are fights where MM does so far outclass BM that there is no possible way for them to be in any reasonable ballpark of them, and since there's ZERO fights in which the opposite is true, the choice to play MM was pretty clear.

But those two factors do not mean it's a garbage spec, only an incredibly simple minded person would say that. As I said, the right legendaries and that spec suddenly feels like an actual damage spec.

[Deleted]

2 set: When you use Bestial Wrath, all of your currently summoned Dire Beasts gain 50% increased damage for 15s ( tested and all DB on BW get a buff)
4 set: Dire Beast reduces the cooldown on Bestial Wrath by an additional 8 sec.

Seems like Dire Frenzy still no changes maybe later.

and MM 4 set if not mistaken nerf to 15% from 50%?

latest update on PTR

[nacruza]

not so good

[Deleted]

I'm alrdy taking Simcraft with a lot of salt
Because it is using supoptimal haste values and relics for MM causing a 5-10% dmg loss and patchwork fights wont occure in most situations.
Next point is that other classes which deal a little more dmg than MM got more movement issues than MM leading to a higher dmg loss in comparison, same with melee classes(boss/adduptime).
After all it's a fact that MM profits most from his his set that's why it was alrdy nerfed and I don't think that they'll nerf MM'S 4P very hard(maybe 50%>30/35%) because it's Blizzard's bandaid fix for the ridiculous amount of focus costs of AiS.
I agree that 4P, gloves+boot+trinket combo is just to strong and it's just bad that 2 legendaries are mandatory for MM to be competitive on mythic raiding.

4P 50%>>>15%

OK screw myself, I rly didn't expect such a huge and over the top nerf. 4P is nearly useless now because 7,5 less focus cost on AiS is nothing. Well atleast we don't need to bother with supoptimal stats on our Set and can take the few good ones for 2P.
In addition SW should be the new to go talent for all situations when u get your BiS-Items, because AS sucks on generating focus via Trueshot, leading to an higher amount of lost dmg than SW-Builds. Congrats u screwed up again.