IS Legion killing the wow playerbase?

[Deleted]

I've yet to log and see less than 5-6 people online on my friends list at any given time. There were times in WOD where literally 0 people would be online, not exaggerating here.

Also I've put in probably twice to three times the hours in this expansion than I did in WOD, alongside with multiple close friends of mine. I know that's not a huge amount of data but after reading some of the responses here I can see other people are in the same boat.

To say Legion is killing the database just shows how out of touch with the gaming community you really are.

no one ever claimed that people, who are playing the game, have nothing to do. There is a lot to do, even TOO MUCH to do, and that's why people are leaving the game, because they are getting burned out

[Deleted]

My FL lights up like a Xmas Tree when I open it ... I literally have to scroll down twice just to finish the list that plays wow and get to other games... the world seems full of ppl, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a player. At every wq I find at least a handful of players. I like every aspect of the expansion. Granted I have 2 decent legendaries which i farmed my ass off for but you know what, I enjoyed every moment of it so much so that i'll keep farming for them till I'll get them all and then some. I'm lovin' it.

[Pua]

I'd say the EXACT opposite. WoW has devolved because the dev made the game according to what they perceived to be player's desires/what would be the most "markettable", against their own preferences, and as such did a subpar game (because you can usually do much better when you actually like what you do).

I disagree.

The game they want to play is super-hard Mythic raiding and progression culture. I promise you, that if that was entirely the game they made, then there'd be nobody left playing the game, whatsoever. What they're doing is making sure their preferences are accounted for, and most other things play a rather distant second fiddle. They've sorted a lot of that out in Legion, because they saw what they game they wanted did in Warlords of Draenor, but accessibility is something they're doing because they know that the game is financed by casual players.

Top raiders like to spit on and mock casual players, but they're the ones who make the money.

It is a trivial problem. Outside world sets. Gear that is designed to give advantages to players out in the world. Set bonuses that improve your gathering, or give rep bonuses. Or improve gold rewards. Or increase your chances of getting rare materials. Make it so they can be upgraded over time, to improve the bonuses. Make it so they can only be used in certain zones. Create some kind of wardrobe style setup, so people can store them without it ending up clogging up their bank space. Or make it so the items themselves have a selectable option for which zone they cover, which an NPC in the capitals can change. Then you have quests to do to open up all the different zones. Or, if you want to avoid having to create content for this, just make it so that dailies played in a particular zone fills up a bar to improve gear for that zone. But that would be a lot less fun for players.

Then you have something for people to do in the outside world that has an impact on the way they play in the outside world. If they never raid at all, they have a clear progression path they can follow.

But that involves Blizzard designing for more than one type of player at a time. Which they appear to be incapable of doing, at least since Cata.

I think you and I view "trivial" very differently.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

IS Legion killing the wow playerbase?

[Deleted]

no one ever claimed that people, who are playing the game, have nothing to do. There is a lot to do, even TOO MUCH to do, and that's why people are leaving the game, because they are getting burned out

I didn't claim people had nothing to do. I was just comparing online activity of players. It's less to do with the amount of content in game at the moment but the quality being much higher. Mythic+ has kept many of my friends/guildies and myself entertained indefinitely on both mains and alts. There's not too much content either, lots of players are looking at Artifact weapons like they need to fill the 15% or they won't be allowed in raids or something. When in reality, it's really not a factor, just get your golden traits and you're good to go. Obviously if you spend every waking hour farming AP you're going to burn out, but the same could be said about anything else in the game.. Try farming GM/HW back in the day lol!

[Akka]

I disagree.

The game they want to play is super-hard Mythic raiding and progression culture.

Progression, yes, and it's one thing that is acutely absent today and I'd say it's a part of what instill a sense of boredom.
But super-hard Mythic raiding ? No. Remember that WoW was designed by hardcore people from EQ, and yet they made it to be comparatively much more accessible. I think they just wanted a more balanced game, neither only the ultra-hardcore, but not as dumbed down and boringly accessible as WoW today.

[shonist]

why are we discussing this everyday with a new guy?

[Pua]

Progression, yes, and it's one thing that is acutely absent today and I'd say it's a part of what instill a sense of boredom.
But super-hard Mythic raiding ? No. Remember that WoW was designed by hardcore people from EQ, and yet they made it to be comparatively much more accessible. I think they just wanted a more balanced game, neither only the ultra-hardcore, but not as dumbed down and boringly accessible as WoW today.

The team that built the original World of Warcraft departed once Ulduar was completed. There was a significant shift in philosophy at that time, because the very next tier is when "Heroic" raids went in.

[unbound]

As a casual; There is no long leveling period (boring timesink anyway), no crafting to care about, no dungeons to 'need' to progress through and then the raids just evaporate into redundancy every patch. As a casual your only hold on the game is IlvL that you don't even really care about because you don't need it for anything. So people just quit. omg It actually makes sense regarding the 'cyclical" play style people keep talking about in this thread

Going to call BS on this. I have always been considered a casual throughout my time from Vanilla Beta onwards.

As a casual, the long leveling period was fine since you are enjoying the journey, not the raid content at the end.

As a casual, crafting could be interesting to discover new things and make potentially interesting items.

As a casual, a challenging dungeon was fun (especially when different classes / specs worked very differently). We didn't do it to progress to raids.

As a casual, a raid is simply one of (hopefully) many things to do. We don't avoid them, but we don't play just to do them.

As a casual, I've absolutely abhorred the development of iLvl requirements. I'm not playing a game to get some improvements on a number...so it has never been a hold on the game.

As a casual, it is all about the many aspects of the game. PvP when it wasn't so highly reliant on gear (or honor level). Dungeons. Raids. Leveling. Friends. Gathering. Crafting. All of it. WoW may indeed be dying because it is all about iLvl to get to the next raid...that is what is boring.

[nomnom]

Honestly I just think it's a age thing and possibly growing up. I've been playing since TBC and I think it's about time for me to call it quits. A lot of us started in high school or what not and you know 10 years later life changes for some. I really liked legion at the beginning and the non stop grind to keep progressing had burned me out.

[Daffan]

Going to call BS on this. I have always been considered a casual throughout my time from Vanilla Beta onwards.

As a casual, the long leveling period was fine since you are enjoying the journey, not the raid content at the end.

As a casual, crafting could be interesting to discover new things and make potentially interesting items.

As a casual, a challenging dungeon was fun (especially when different classes / specs worked very differently). We didn't do it to progress to raids.

As a casual, a raid is simply one of (hopefully) many things to do. We don't avoid them, but we don't play just to do them.

As a casual, I've absolutely abhorred the development of iLvl requirements. I'm not playing a game to get some improvements on a number...so it has never been a hold on the game.

As a casual, it is all about the many aspects of the game. PvP when it wasn't so highly reliant on gear (or honor level). Dungeons. Raids. Leveling. Friends. Gathering. Crafting. All of it. WoW may indeed be dying because it is all about iLvl to get to the next raid...that is what is boring.

I'm a casual. I don't mind long leveling, but it's impossible to go back to that - so it's pointless even thinking about it. We'll never see those times again, so it's off the bargaining table.

And if dungeons, crafting and raids did not drop/create items you needed or were not required to progress, you'd almost never do them. Even back then Casuals did/TRIED the following not just for fun but other reasons. Hit 70 > work on crafting(entire time) > work on reps(entire time) > farm normals > farm heroics > kara > gruuls > mag > tk > ssc > hyjal > bt > sun etc . Now you don't have to do anything because it's done for you. So most people don't care about content that gives no rewards.

Inspect 100 people, maybe 1 has a crafted item. Most people simply don't care about it because it's been made redundant from other easier sources of gearing. Same will be for EN/TOV shortly.

That's pretty frighteningly spot-on.

Yeah it made sense for me quickly after I read it. When I was ultra casual in WoD it happened to me. Log in - pvp gear - quit. Log in - baleful - quit. Log in - arena gear - quit. Don't even know what I was doing anymore and why. Game was playing itself.

[Brewhan]

Honestly I just think it's a age thing and possibly growing up. I've been playing since TBC and I think it's about time for me to call it quits. A lot of us started in high school or what not and you know 10 years later life changes for some. I really liked legion at the beginning and the non stop grind to keep progressing had burned me out.

I started late vanilla (5 months before BC launch), at 25 I've just cut down my play time a lot, being a hardcore raider in TBC and WOTLK now I just CBA because i've done it all before the carrot on the stick is still the same and no one remembers me for being the best ret pally on my realm in tbc/wotlk or best guild on my server it was fun just to me personally will always be a fond memory. Nowadays i can still play 2hrs up to 4hrs a day grinding M+ and WQs but not being pressured by a guild then pug some normal/HC when I want to playing about 20-25hrs a week versus the 60hrs a week at peak addiction days. I think you just gotta change your mindset only grind what you want to let the rest go its not your time anymore to do that.

I much rather enjoy cooking a meal and watching others go hardcore from <Limit> / <Method> etc playing 12hrs a day on twitch while im enjoying my nice meal and shower and they are perma grinding M+ 7-9 keys secretly hating themselves.

[thealmightymoo]

How come there is always one person who posts a thread like this EVERY expansion?

[Sairuzz]

Personal insults? Great way to ruin your own argument there buddy.

RNG the the insane level we have in Legion has not been a part of the game befor and there are a lot of players without a legendary that have put silly amounts of hours into the game and then there the people that got the bad ones that aren't worth using. They are more or less forced out of the endgame content now as having two damage increasing legendaries is 100% mandatory at this point.

Yeah, there is extreme grind both to get you artifact leveled up and to get your 2 BiS legendaries. No way around this. The game has never required this much time spent.

Vanilla did not have the same amount of RNG and leveling took time but it did not force you to run the same content over and over like Legion does. Also, if legendaries are so rare that only 2-3 people on a realm has them, they are not mandatory. Thats fine!
Now though, every other player has them so if you're one of the unlucky people that did not get one or a bad one your fucked. That was not the case in previous expantions or vanilla.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want vanilla back but anythings better than Legion for sure.

Players alwasy start leaving after leveling but the servers are ghost towns now. They've never been this empty. Even with WoDs garrisosns you'd find more people out in the world all expantion long than you do in Legion.

I'd much rather have WoDs endgame than this crap. At least the raids were good and we didn't have to deal with as much RNG-crap.

First of all I've gotten the 2 "worst" legends in Prydaz and Sephuz, yet I'm still top 5 among the dps in my mythic EN/ToV group. It's not all about the gear, personal skill and some RNG in every fight will measure in, I'm also almost 10 ilvls behind our best geared one.

Secondly, so far I've got 11 days /played at 110, which is nothing at all, yet I'm perfectly able to perform well in endgame content. If Mythic raids is not endgame enough for you, I dont know what is. When I raided TBC and Lich King, the next tier of conent would be released before I would even be close to being more than adequately geared on my mage, fighting for tier tokens with 3 others mages and getting what would be considered BiS items to drop, only to lose them to either rolls, DKP or reputation in the guild, whichever was the current lootsystem. I never completed my T6 gear before Lich King rolled out, and that was 4 nights a week worth of raiding, 4 hours every night. Getting GOOD gear now requires minimal effort and even less brainpower, once you apply yourself.

Also the vanilla legendary thing I can kind of agree with you. They're not unique items anymore, and I think people want current content legends to equal the power of the old ones.. Why? Can't a game evolve it's design and people just take it for what it is, not wanting some shinier version of old expansions? Vanilla was a shit version of the game, but it was good at the time because it was just about the best MMO had to offer(I did not play Everquest, I can't argue how good it was in comparison) I loved it at the time, and think fondly of the days spent in it, but no way would I ever submit myself to that model again.. 40 man raids (getting 40 16-20 years olds together 3 times a week and sitting through 4 hours raids without anyones parent or tempers getting in the way was a nightmare), having a spellbook full of 40+ spells, yet only 10 of them had any combat function, pathing glitches, loot issues, non-existent customer support. It was a mess.

[Lemondish]

To answer the original question - Yes. Legion is killing the wow playerbase, but not figuratively. Literally. I am dead now. It was murder. The Burning Legion sucked my soul into this computer and I'm stuck here. Pls halp!

[Aggrophobic]

First of all I've gotten the 2 "worst" legends in Prydaz and Sephuz, yet I'm still top 5 among the dps in my mythic EN/ToV group. It's not all about the gear, personal skill and some RNG in every fight will measure in, I'm also almost 10 ilvls behind our best geared one.

Secondly, so far I've got 11 days /played at 110, which is nothing at all, yet I'm perfectly able to perform well in endgame content. If Mythic raids is not endgame enough for you, I dont know what is. When I raided TBC and Lich King, the next tier of conent would be released before I would even be close to being more than adequately geared on my mage, fighting for tier tokens with 3 others mages and getting what would be considered BiS items to drop, only to lose them to either rolls, DKP or reputation in the guild, whichever was the current lootsystem. I never completed my T6 gear before Lich King rolled out, and that was 4 nights a week worth of raiding, 4 hours every night. Getting GOOD gear now requires minimal effort and even less brainpower, once you apply yourself.

Also the vanilla legendary thing I can kind of agree with you. They're not unique items anymore, and I think people want current content legends to equal the power of the old ones.. Why? Can't a game evolve it's design and people just take it for what it is, not wanting some shinier version of old expansions? Vanilla was a shit version of the game, but it was good at the time because it was just about the best MMO had to offer(I did not play Everquest, I can't argue how good it was in comparison) I loved it at the time, and think fondly of the days spent in it, but no way would I ever submit myself to that model again.. 40 man raids (getting 40 16-20 years olds together 3 times a week and sitting through 4 hours raids without anyones parent or tempers getting in the way was a nightmare), having a spellbook full of 40+ spells, yet only 10 of them had any combat function, pathing glitches, loot issues, non-existent customer support. It was a mess.

This has been said befor but if you top the DPS with way worse gear than the other DPS players on your guild, they are bad players ormaybe you're simply a really good player? Thats cool.
You do have to compare players of equal skill here though.

I have no intrest in bringing the game back to how it was in vanilla but when it comes to the strongest items in the game, I'd rather you could target them. I'm not intrested in playing the lottery. I'm intrested in an RPG.
The legendaries do not have to come fast. The rate at wich you acquire legendaries is also not the issue at here.

It's just too much RNG.

[MoanaLisa]

You do have to compare players of equal skill here though.

Well, that's flat-out impossible on a forum.

The topic is completely subjective and everyone has a different play experience. People come and go all the time. People came and left during Vanilla, BC, Wrath and every expansion since. It's more noticeable now because few new players sign up. Blizzard is likely very happy with how many people bought the expansion and continue to play it. They should be. It's a good expansion. The idea that there can be too much to do is only important to those who think they have to do everything. They don't and the fact that they think they do is their problem. Better too much than too little. "Oh my god, I have to quit because I can't do everything in the game." Fucking pathetic.

[Aggrophobic]

Well, that's flat-out impossible on a forum.

The topic is completely subjective and everyone has a different play experience. People come and go all the time. People came and left during Vanilla, BC, Wrath and every expansion since. It's more noticeable now because few new players sign up. Blizzard is likely very happy with how many people bought the expansion and continue to play it. They should be. It's a good expansion. The idea that there can be too much to do is only important to those who think they have to do everything. They don't and the fact that they think they do is their problem. Better too much than too little. "Oh my god, I have to quit because I can't do everything in the game." Fucking pathetic.

As they clearly stated that the legendary system, at least the DPS increasing ones was an idea they would have skipped if they got to do it again, I doubt they are "very happy" and seeing as the activity is at WoD levels already, I'm sure they can do way better.

[Deleted]

Population has been on a huge downturn since Legion came out even worse than WOD. I think it's because Blizzard pretty much killed alts with the bad AP system.

I am still alive, as far as i know!

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Anecdotal evidence: of the 7 guilds I am in, 2 main guilds, the rest accepting invites while I was a lowbie, only 1 of them has activity. The active membership of that guild: 5 people

Anecdotal counter-evidence: Out guild has over 100 active members and two full 20-man raid teams. At any hour of the day or night you can log in and find a dozen or more guild mates playing, several dozen during peak hours, and many of those hanging out in Discord together. Emerald Nightmare, ToV, and Nightbane runs all happening several times per week. M+ pickup groups forming several times a day. As main tank I log into several requests/offers and spend my game time juggling them in hopes that no one will feel left out. We are a happy growing guild.