Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Azlo]

Some of the items are poorly itemized for MM, especially. Mastery alone can overcome some of the meager gains from bonuses. These are hardly the most optimal gear selections. Additionally, as always, the Simcraft Source is provided. I am not using QS relics and am instead using something that always provides single target damage for the profiles. For BM, these are Pack Leader and Jaws of Thunder. For MM, those are Marked for Death. Again, you can find these in the Simcraft Source. QS is useful for pushing TS to 30s CD with tier bonuses, and along with Convergence of Fates, will make TS uptime insane. However, these current sims are just what I'm looking at right now. It's unreasonable to expect all information all at once. Sims take time, and I have limited time. Your suggestions are hardly my priority. Feel free to do your own sims.

Any possibility of doing a sim to check with tier, no boots, no legendary?

All sims with boots also have tier, all the sims without boots have no tier. Right now it looks like I'm going into NH with Seph/Pryd, but with a very good chance of getting tier.

I just want to see whether it's worth it for me to delete my character and start a new hunter for boots.

Edit: I guess based on your nomenclature, I'm looking for a mm_895tier_nolegs (although not sure if this profile would take into account 2 legendary stat sticks). My hypothesis is that it'll slot in below mm_895tier_boots_leg and above mm_notier_beltboots_leg around 560k, making boots a 12% DPS boost at 895 and even more as gear gets better.

[Effinhunter]

Any possibility of doing a sim to check with tier, no boots, no legendary?

All sims with boots also have tier, all the sims without boots have no tier. Right now it looks like I'm going into NH with Seph/Pryd, but with a very good chance of getting tier.

I just want to see whether it's worth it for me to delete my character and start a new hunter for boots.

Edit: I guess based on your nomenclature, I'm looking for a mm_895tier_nolegs (although not sure if this profile would take into account 2 legendary stat sticks). My hypothesis is that it'll slot in below mm_895tier_boots_leg and above mm_notier_beltboots_leg around 560k, making boots a 12% DPS boost at 895 and even more as gear gets better.

Yeah, nolegs profiles have no legendaries. I'm currently running all talent combination sims for MM, BM, and SV that include full tier to see how it affects the top 20 or so talent configurations. I'm also running a MM with tier and leg boots to show that stratification. After that, which will take some hours, I will look into other requests.

[Azlo]

Yeah, nolegs profiles have no legendaries. I'm currently running all talent combination sims for MM, BM, and SV that include full tier to see how it affects the top 20 or so talent configurations. I'm also running a MM with tier and leg boots to show that stratification. After that, which will take some hours, I will look into other requests.

Cool thanks! You already have a MM with tier and leg boots sim though that was posted in #1082, the one I think would be useful would be adding one that has tier without leg boots (since not all hunters have those boots).

Thanks for all the hard work.

[Makro]

Yeah, nolegs profiles have no legendaries. I'm currently running all talent combination sims for MM, BM, and SV that include full tier to see how it affects the top 20 or so talent configurations. I'm also running a MM with tier and leg boots to show that stratification. After that, which will take some hours, I will look into other requests.

Thanks for your awesome job, as always.

Do you have any heads up on MM relics? I think Deadly Aim, Marked for Death and the usual Quickshot are going to be best ones and luckily they are all available in NH.

[Effinhunter]

Here is MM talent combinations for single target with tier equipped and no legendaries. The next one I have running is MM tier talent combinations with legendary boots. TA and SW benefit greatly from the tier synergies.

MM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


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Thanks for your awesome job, as always.

Do you have any heads up on MM relics? I think Deadly Aim, Marked for Death and the usual Quickshot are going to be best ones and luckily they are all available in NH.

I have a lot of sims for relics and individual legendaries that are roughly 2 weeks old. I'll rerun these after the tier talent sims and get more recent results. There aren't really any surprises though.

[Deleted]

Here is MM talent combinations for single target with tier equipped and no legendaries. The next one I have running is MM tier talent combinations with legendary boots. TA and SW benefit greatly from the tier synergies.

MM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


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I have a lot of sims for relics and individual legendaries that are roughly 2 weeks old. I'll rerun these after the tier talent sims and get more recent results. There aren't really any surprises though.

Thx effin but which one was used in the sims with legendaries?

[Effinhunter]

Thx effin but which one was used in the sims with legendaries?

Click on Simcraft Source


Talents are next to "talents=". Relics are found in the "artifact=".


I've detailed which ids are what, relic wise, in the *relics_by_point.simc. For instance, mm can be found here:
http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/..._by_point.simc (MM)

BM and SV are similarly broken down in:
http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/..._by_point.simc (BM)
http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/..._by_point.simc (SV)

Look for the comments, e.g. "#314=qs", which means that if you adjust 314 up or down, you will be changing the traits placed in quick shot. The sims posted here are meant to be guides for people to do their own sims.

I'll be posting all of these relics_by_point.simc results soonish. Still wrapping up BM and SV sims. The tier w/boots for MM didn't really change anything in the top talent combinations. Not worth really posting it.

[Youn]

So, if I am reading the API correctly you only windburst in the following cases:

1) If talented patient sniper and not talented sidewinders with less then 2 seconds left on vulnerability debuff
2) if not talented patient sniper and talented sidewinders with the hunters mark debuff down.
3) target has 6 second left to live and there is only 1 enemy left.

Otherwise just ignore the button exists?

[Deleted]

Click on Simcraft Source

Sorry but I've checked again and I don't see the Simcraft source in your original post

[Effinhunter]

Sorry but I've checked again and I don't see the Simcraft source in your original post

that's a screenshot of the first post. You have to click the "Simcraft Source" thing in the first post. If you click the image you are quoting, then it will just bring up a larger image. Sorry for the confusion.

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BM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


SV w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)


Edit: Updating all relic sims to include how much is gained with 35th trait. Might take an hour to rerun sims.

[BendakWoW]

Not sure how you're getting Dire Frenzy ahead of Stomp? I'm even simming Chimaera Shot as higher than Dire Frenzy. Your last two source links are broken also.

[Effinhunter]

Not sure how you're getting Dire Frenzy ahead of Stomp? I'm even simming Chimaera Shot as higher than Dire Frenzy. Your last two source links are broken also.

I am using the default APL for current simcraft. I have not tweaked any of these apls yet. After I get a baseline, I will try to look into APLs. Do you have an APL you've been working on? I also have not modified the stats down on Titanstrike yet (from your post). These could be the source of the issue between yours and mine.

Edit: P.S. Links to BM/SV w/tier talent sims should be fixed now.

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I've rerun the relic sims with 34 traits as a baseline and then added a 35 traits line to show how much more you gain from your 35th trait than from individual relic upgrades.


BM Relic Upgrades, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Relic Upgrades, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Relic Upgrades, Single Target (Simcraft Source)


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BM Relic Upgrades, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Relic Upgrades, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Relic Upgrades, Three Target (Simcraft Source)


BM Relic Upgrades, Six Target (Simcraft Source)


MM Relic Upgrades, Six Target (Simcraft Source)


SV Relic Upgrades, Six Target (Simcraft Source)

[Deleted]

Here is MM talent combinations for single target with tier equipped and no legendaries. The next one I have running is MM tier talent combinations with legendary boots. TA and SW benefit greatly from the tier synergies.

MM w/tier Single Target Talents (Simcraft Source)

.

Hmmm, maybe I'm just not seeing it, but is there no

LW+TA+PS+Volley+Trick?

It's intresting to see that your sims show
LW+LnL+PS+Volley+Trick equally strong on ST as
LW+LnL+PS+AMoC+Trick

[Effinhunter]

Hmmm, maybe I'm just not seeing it, but is there no

LW+TA+PS+Volley+Trick?

It's intresting to see that your sims show
LW+LnL+PS+Volley+Trick equally strong on ST as
LW+LnL+PS+AMoC+Trick

Wow. You are correct. The talent combination was being overwritten by the following:

copy=MM_LW_TA_PS_Volley_Trick
talents=1303033


###########################################################


name=MM_StdF_LaL_ExS_AMoC_Sidew
talents=2101011

I'll go over all of the talents to see if "name=" is doing this in the other large talent combination files. This is obviously a copy-paste error. Nice catch!

Edit: looks like 2 such talent combinations were missing in each spec file, so there were only 241 combinations instead of 243. I'll be rerunning the talent sims tonight.

[BendakWoW]

I am using the default APL for current simcraft. I have not tweaked any of these apls yet. After I get a baseline, I will try to look into APLs. Do you have an APL you've been working on? I also have not modified the stats down on Titanstrike yet (from your post). These could be the source of the issue between yours and mine.

Edit: P.S. Links to BM/SV w/tier talent sims should be fixed now.

Turns out the problem was my legendary boots. Sim craft isn't applying their cooldown reduction to Dire Frenzy. Stomp and Dire Frenzy are close for me as well if I take the boots out of the equation.

Numbers aside, my main issue with Dire Frenzy now is that the pet has to be in melee range to cast it or else it fails completely. Compare that to DB which only requires the hunter to be within 40 yards of the target. It makes it pretty unusable in any fight where you have to target swap. It doesn't even have a short range charge/teleport like Kill Command.

[Khrux]

Question: Are Sims taking into account the cooldown changes to Frenzy in 7.1.5, 15secs down to 12secs?


For my own musings, just putting some things in perspective below.

MM highest talent combo dps - 633231
MM lowest talent combo dps - 565167
Variance of 12% from least to most optimal talents with tier

BM highest talent combo dps - 483869
BM lowest talent combo dps - 466188
Variance of 3.7% from least to most optimal talents with tier

SV highest talent combo dps - 503166
SV lowest talent combo dps - 483631
Variance of 4% from least to most optimal talents with tier

MM's best setup is 30.8% stronger than BM's best setup and 25.8% stronger than SV's best setup.
MM's worst setup is 21.2% stronger than BM's worst setup and 16.8% stronger than SV's worst setup.
MM's worst setup is still 16.8% stronger than BM's best and 12.3% stronger than SV's best.

TLDR; MM set is op, MM talents make a big difference, BM and SV sets are shit and talents don't make a big difference.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the sims OT, it is really helpful

[Deleted]

Question: Are Sims taking into account the cooldown changes to Frenzy in 7.1.5, 15secs down to 12secs?


For my own musings, just putting some things in perspective below.

MM highest talent combo dps - 633231
MM lowest talent combo dps - 565167
Variance of 12% from least to most optimal talents with tier

BM highest talent combo dps - 483869
BM lowest talent combo dps - 466188
Variance of 3.7% from least to most optimal talents with tier

SV highest talent combo dps - 503166
SV lowest talent combo dps - 483631
Variance of 4% from least to most optimal talents with tier

MM's best setup is 30.8% stronger than BM's best setup and 25.8% stronger than SV's best setup.
MM's worst setup is 21.2% stronger than BM's worst setup and 16.8% stronger than SV's worst setup.
MM's worst setup is still 16.8% stronger than BM's best and 12.3% stronger than SV's best.

TLDR; MM set is op, MM talents make a big difference, BM and SV sets are shit and talents don't make a big difference.

Pls be aware, that the speccs listed in those simulations, are only the top talent combinations. There are 3^5=243 dps talent combinations per specc. So your conclusions are wrong.

[Effinhunter]

Question: Are Sims taking into account the cooldown changes to Frenzy in 7.1.5, 15secs down to 12secs?


For my own musings, just putting some things in perspective below.

MM highest talent combo dps - 633231
MM lowest talent combo dps - 565167
Variance of 12% from least to most optimal talents with tier

BM highest talent combo dps - 483869
BM lowest talent combo dps - 466188
Variance of 3.7% from least to most optimal talents with tier

SV highest talent combo dps - 503166
SV lowest talent combo dps - 483631
Variance of 4% from least to most optimal talents with tier

MM's best setup is 30.8% stronger than BM's best setup and 25.8% stronger than SV's best setup.
MM's worst setup is 21.2% stronger than BM's worst setup and 16.8% stronger than SV's worst setup.
MM's worst setup is still 16.8% stronger than BM's best and 12.3% stronger than SV's best.

TLDR; MM set is op, MM talents make a big difference, BM and SV sets are shit and talents don't make a big difference.

There are 243 talent combinations for each spec, and I'm only showing the top 20 or so combinations. So, it's not showing the worst possible combinations. The conclusion remains the same, however. MM is way ahead of the pack when tier is factored in. MM's cumulative bonus is one of the best in this tier.

We should probably be thankful that we have at least one spec that has a good tier bonus for dps. According to some ww monks that I've talked with, the ww monk tier bonuses are a net loss because of how they affect timing. We at least have some bonus for each spec. There's a spreadsheet of bonus percentage being passed around higher end guilds, but it has some incorrect entries in it (e.g. SV is obviously using bad gear and is undervalued), so I'm not sure it's worth posting here. Let's just say that rogues and MM hunters have a lot to look forward to though.

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Here's the updated list with all 243 after the corrections to "name="

MM Talents w/tier Single Target (top combinations out of 243 possibles, Simcraft Source):


MM Talents no tier Single Target (top combinations out of 243 possibles, Simcraft Source):


The BM and SV have no real changes to the top of the list, but I'll update the images in the first post.

[Renley]

Oh snap, Volley is quite close to AMOC. I dig it. So much for getting rid of Barrage for being the ST/AOE go-to talent. Welcome aboard Volley!