Make PvP Great Again

[Rottegift]

Are you denying that warrior mobility is vastly superior to ret, and even most melee in the game? Because it is. Mobility not an issue in ret v warr since both are melee and neither are trying to get away from each other.

I beat rets more than half of the time on my enhance shaman, and have a more difficult time with warriors, and beat them about half of the time using most of my CDs. Warriors already have spammable high-damage abilities, CCs, defensives and self-heals. It sounds to me like you want to be indestructible. Warriors stomp casters quite effectively now, and the purpose was to illustrate the melee mobility gaps that really shouldn't exist. Warriors should have less; other melee a little more. None should be "unpeelable" and none should be "free kite kills".

Honestly, what the fuck are you talking about? Is this a world PVP or BG discussion, something like that? Warriors are among the least represtented classes in the game at the moment. They have two specs that are completely useless (Fury and Prot) and their final spec is just "OK" for high end arena. Sure, they got mobility. But they lack utility.

If you're honestly complaining about warriors as an enhancement shaman or ret you're just really bad or don't know shit. If you actually think a ret should have as high mobility as a warrior you got no clue what you're talking about too. Some consider ret to be the strongest spec in the game atm for arena with PHD as the strongest 3s comp. Yes, they got worse mobility but their superstrong burst and utility makes them so much stronger. There's a reason warriors are getting more utility next patch. If you took away their mobility right now they'd be the worst spec or class to have ever been in the game as far as PvP goes lol.

And if you think everyone should have the same mobility you're also dumb. If you gave everyone the same mobility you'd have to go ahead and give everyone the same utility too. Give warriors autobubble and BoP pls. It was when homogenization started PvP went to the gutter.

EDIT: ALSO LOL! What spmmable CCS, defensives and self-heals are you talking about? God damn parry on a 3 minutes fucking long cooldown? What selfheals? They have ZERO. What spammable CC? They have a fear on 2 minutes cooldown and a 45 CD stun if you spec into it (which you lose mobility for). That's literally everything.

[Deleted]

On the topic of mobility, uneducated PvP players oftentimes mess it up with uptime.

Where it may be true that Warriors, given cooldowns, have more mobility than Rets, they both have wildly, wildly different uptimes, both on the target and more broadly on what they can do.

At the present time, a Ret has some amazing tools and lost very little from WoD. A Ret can remove stuns, snares, remove poisons and diseases from the targets, remove incoming melee damage, and even heal his teammates.
I'm not mentioning blessings here because it's pointless and their effectiveness wildy varies.

Admittedly, his 30s portable horse has a long-ish cooldown compared to Charge, albeit being very shorter than Heroic Leap, but lo and behold here comes Hand of Hindrance, a 30yd 10s 70% snare, that can be honortalented to make one of Ret's Holy Power builders able to apply it - again, from range - and without affecting the main spell.

Hand of Hindrance is a great peeling tool aswell, able to create pressure with the Ret keeping it melee, or being able to get INTO melee range given how hard a 70% almost spammable snare is to play around.

Rets as it stands has amazing mobility, and is really hard to focus given how amazing its defensives are aswell: the 2016 version of Retaliation, working against spells and melee alike, his 30s sprint can be popped with a snare suppression ability, a nuke based on its own missing health, an auto immunity that reduces that same immunity's cooldown by half, and Hand of Protection that can be self-casted with as much as 30s of downtime from the very same immunity, given how much Forbearance has been made into a forgivin mechanic.

Warriors, on the other hand, have Charge on 20s cooldown, Heroic Leap on 45s and have to choose between control and mobility.
Uptime, given the nerf to Hamstring, is really hard to mantain. And given the current Colossus Smash mechanic its damage is really clunky - but effective. However, having lost Intervene as a separate button and the aoe snare, a Warrior needs to be in complete melee range to be of any utility to its team, since all the Warrior can really do is damage its target.

Rets and Warriors are melee, and fortunately enough those two are not made equal, as it should.
But saying that Rets should get more than the Warrior?

[Professor Expert]

Honestly, what the fuck are you talking about? Is this a world PVP or BG discussion, something like that? Warriors are among the least represtented classes in the game at the moment. They have two specs that are completely useless (Fury and Prot) and their final spec is just "OK" for high end arena. Sure, they got mobility. But they lack utility.

Seems like that's a question you should be answering. Rated pvp is irrelevant in legion, as is all pvp...so right off the bat you open with an idiotic assertion of "representation", as if that matters. All warrior specs are well-suited to pvp - and what "utility" do you think a warrior is lacking? Should they have the option to fall back and bust out some heals? LOL So yea, answer your question - wtf are YOU talking about?

If you're honestly complaining about warriors as an enhancement shaman or ret you're just really bad or don't know shit.

Please quote the part where I was "complaining"...because right now it seems like you're advertising double-digit IQ if you are unable to distinguish between a comparison and a complaint.

If you actually think a ret should have as high mobility as a warrior you got no clue what you're talking about too. Some consider ret to be the strongest spec in the game atm for arena with PHD as the strongest 3s comp. Yes, they got worse mobility but their superstrong burst and utility makes them so much stronger. There's a reason warriors are getting more utility next patch. If you took away their mobility right now they'd be the worst spec or class to have ever been in the game as far as PvP goes lol.

Beginning to look more to me like you got rolled by a ret in duels and are still mad about it. There are many viable 3s comps for all classes, and all DPS are capable of high burst. Ret doesn't have a monopoly on burst, and for a melee ret mobility is pitiful while warrior mobility is "too good". That gap needs to narrow, and not just between rets and warrs, but among all melee.

Who said warriors should lose all of their mobility? The delta among melee mobility should be narrower - that includes ALL melee. No melee should have the ability charge-leap across WSG in a matter of seconds, nor should any melee be a free kill to any ranged class with a snare.

For all of your butt-hurting over ret v warrior, you fail to say anything about ret v ranged...because rets are a very small threat to ANY competent ranged player.

And if you think everyone should have the same mobility you're also dumb. If you gave everyone the same mobility you'd have to go ahead and give everyone the same utility too. Give warriors autobubble and BoP pls. It was when homogenization started PvP went to the gutter.

Paladins' auto-bubble is a talent and it can be countered by any priest. ALL paladin defenses are dispellable. Which one of your defensive CDs can be dispelled? None.

EDIT: ALSO LOL! What spmmable CCS, defensives and self-heals are you talking about? God damn parry on a 3 minutes fucking long cooldown? What selfheals? They have ZERO. What spammable CC? They have a fear on 2 minutes cooldown and a 45 CD stun if you spec into it (which you lose mobility for). That's literally everything.

Bud, warrior pvp doesn't seem to be your thing. Stick with your demon hunter...aka the warrior for people with mental handicaps.

Fury:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=184364/...d-regeneration
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881/bloodthirst

Arms:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29838/second-wind
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=34428/victory-rush

All Warrior Specs:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=97462/commanding-shout

Spammable CC = any instant-cast loss-of-control CC on a cooldown of 1 min or less, or any casted CC with no cooldown.

- - - Updated - - -

On the topic of mobility, uneducated PvP players oftentimes mess it up with uptime.

Where it may be true that Warriors, given cooldowns, have more mobility than Rets, they both have wildly, wildly different uptimes, both on the target and more broadly on what they can do.

If you are a melee with no ranged capabilities, your uptime is entirely determined by your mobility.

At the present time, a Ret has some amazing tools and lost very little from WoD. A Ret can remove stuns, snares, remove poisons and diseases from the targets, remove incoming melee damage, and even heal his teammates.
I'm not mentioning blessings here because it's pointless and their effectiveness wildy varies.

Rets were not exactly great in WoD so saying they "lost little" isn't saying much. They did lose a lot of mobility, and that was never their strong suit.

Your listing of all the great feats rets can do is misleading; their "help a friend" trinket is a talent. It's pretty good, but their cleanse ability is relatively useless. You'll cleans poisons/diseases that will be auto-applied a second later? Yeah, worth mentioning.

Rets can put blessing of protection on an ally, but that only blocks physical damage and it's dispellable - as are all paladin shields.

Admittedly, his 30s portable horse has a long-ish cooldown compared to Charge, albeit being very shorter than Heroic Leap, but lo and behold here comes Hand of Hindrance, a 30yd 10s 70% snare, that can be honortalented to make one of Ret's Holy Power builders able to apply it - again, from range - and without affecting the main spell.

Hand of hindrance is on a 30 sec CD and is the only snare ability rets get and its range is pretty short. It can be dispelled (unlike hamstring). You are forced to choose the "law and order" talent to have a 3 sec snare applied when you use "blade of justice" (10 sec CD). Point is that rets do not have the tools to stay on target because something like a mage can spell-steal blessing of freedom and root you to prevent you from using your horsie. Slowing them to 70% is pointless because mages and hunters have far more ways to create gaps than rets have ways of closing them...and there's no good reason for that.

Hand of Hindrance is a great peeling tool aswell, able to create pressure with the Ret keeping it melee, or being able to get INTO melee range given how hard a 70% almost spammable snare is to play around.

Quite a stretch there.

Rets as it stands has amazing mobility, and is really hard to focus given how amazing its defensives are aswell: the 2016 version of Retaliation, working against spells and melee alike, his 30s sprint can be popped with a snare suppression ability, a nuke based on its own missing health, an auto immunity that reduces that same immunity's cooldown by half, and Hand of Protection that can be self-casted with as much as 30s of downtime from the very same immunity, given how much Forbearance has been made into a forgivin mechanic.

All of the above would be dispelled, and if it's not, the long CDs prevent ret from keeping any sustained pressure on competent ranged opponents...whereas a warrior can maintain nearly 80-90% uptime on a ranged target and both deal the same high amounts of damage.

Rets and Warriors are melee, and fortunately enough those two are not made equal, as it should.
But saying that Rets should get more than the Warrior?

Ahh, the old straw man of suggesting that someone said rets should equal warriors. Nobody said that. It wasn't even suggested. What was said is that mobility outliers should not exist because they ruin it for all other classes. The ability of warriors to stick to ranged classes means anyone who isn't playing a warrior has to struggle dealing with the ranged class' gap openers that were designed to counter the warrior's many gap closers.

And it's not just warriors...druids and monks are both too good in terms of mobility. There's no if, ands, or buts about it. They shouldn't all be the same, but the outliers need to be reeled in - at the same time, gap opening abilities can be tuned to have longer CDs or shorter range.

[Deleted]

You're putting words in my mouth here.
Not being equals stands for each of them having different kits. And it's good for the game that those two melees work differently.

If anything, for what Ret can do, it should sacrifice some utility to get more mobility. Or damage, or defenses.

Hunters and Mages outrange anybody who doesn't have gapclosers. It goes for all classes. But to be honest, PvP in WoW isn't about anybody's perception of their classes compared to the pure melees, as PvP has more pressing issues than that.

Besides, as of now, Ret has more representation than the entirety of the Warrior class for the exact same role, as seen here.
But I think this is bound to change in the next patch, depending on how much the nerf to Charge will hurt an already precarious situation.

EDIT:
And I'm really, really pulling a straw in responding seriously to somebody who links Second Wind and Victory Rush trying to win an argument about sustain.

[Kagthul]

in order to make it "great again", it would have to have ever been great in the past.

It's never been great. It has been, at times, "very good", at the absolute best. Most of the time it was "OK". Lately it's been "utter dogshit".

So, thread should be titled "Make PvP OK again".

[Rottegift]

Seems like that's a question you should be answering. Rated pvp is irrelevant in legion, as is all pvp...so right off the bat you open with an idiotic assertion of "representation", as if that matters. All warrior specs are well-suited to pvp - and what "utility" do you think a warrior is lacking? Should they have the option to fall back and bust out some heals? LOL So yea, answer your question - wtf are YOU talking about?



Please quote the part where I was "complaining"...because right now it seems like you're advertising double-digit IQ if you are unable to distinguish between a comparison and a complaint.



Beginning to look more to me like you got rolled by a ret in duels and are still mad about it. There are many viable 3s comps for all classes, and all DPS are capable of high burst. Ret doesn't have a monopoly on burst, and for a melee ret mobility is pitiful while warrior mobility is "too good". That gap needs to narrow, and not just between rets and warrs, but among all melee.

Who said warriors should lose all of their mobility? The delta among melee mobility should be narrower - that includes ALL melee. No melee should have the ability charge-leap across WSG in a matter of seconds, nor should any melee be a free kill to any ranged class with a snare.

For all of your butt-hurting over ret v warrior, you fail to say anything about ret v ranged...because rets are a very small threat to ANY competent ranged player.



Paladins' auto-bubble is a talent and it can be countered by any priest. ALL paladin defenses are dispellable. Which one of your defensive CDs can be dispelled? None.



Bud, warrior pvp doesn't seem to be your thing. Stick with your demon hunter...aka the warrior for people with mental handicaps.

Fury:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=184364/...d-regeneration
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=23881/bloodthirst

Arms:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29838/second-wind
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=34428/victory-rush

All Warrior Specs:
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=97462/commanding-shout

Spammable CC = any instant-cast loss-of-control CC on a cooldown of 1 min or less, or any casted CC with no cooldown.

- - - Updated - - -



If you are a melee with no ranged capabilities, your uptime is entirely determined by your mobility.

If rated PvP is irrelevant - on which basis should PvP be balanced around? The fact you think that proves my point that you're a player that have no expertise on this field. Which some of your arguments here truly show, rofl. All warrior specs are fine? For what? Both fury and prot are unplayable at higher rating. What utility they lack? Everything. They only bring damage to the table whereas other classes bring equal damage and utility. Which is why the class has been underrepresented ever since the early nerf in Legion. Which is why you only saw one warrior in the whole Blizzcon tourney - and btw they got knocked out 3-0 asap. And that is also why warriors are getting buffed with utility next patch - thank god the Devs knows at least a little bit more than you.

Which one of our defensive CDS? We only have one. Parry. I'm talking about arms of course because the other two specs are useless. And then... and then when I asked you to find which heals we have that is spammable you go on and link fucking SECOND WIND AND VICTORY RUSH. I mean come on? Have you played this game for what, 2 days? There's not a single warrior specced intwo second wind on this planet because of how dogshit it is. Victory rush? 'spammable heal'? A heal that's only available AFTER you've killed someone - aka when a match is already over????

You consider that as a fucking spammable heal? Jesus christ man. And no, I don't think warrior should get fucking spammable heals. I'm just pointing out your stupid fucking arguments and it's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about. Link me your armory pls so I can see your achievments. Bet you're a sub 2k or even 1550 hero rofl.

[Professor Expert]

in order to make it "great again", it would have to have ever been great in the past.

It's never been great. It has been, at times, "very good", at the absolute best. Most of the time it was "OK". Lately it's been "utter dogshit".

So, thread should be titled "Make PvP OK again".

Around Season 3 it was pretty good in the sense that all classes had one viable pvp spec that did well, and games were not about popping all DPS CDs and trying to blow one up. There was a lot more back-and-forth.

You're putting words in my mouth here.
Not being equals stands for each of them having different kits. And it's good for the game that those two melees work differently.

If anything, for what Ret can do, it should sacrifice some utility to get more mobility. Or damage, or defenses.

Hunters and Mages outrange anybody who doesn't have gapclosers. It goes for all classes. But to be honest, PvP in WoW isn't about anybody's perception of their classes compared to the pure melees, as PvP has more pressing issues than that.

Besides, as of now, Ret has more representation than the entirety of the Warrior class for the exact same role, as seen here.
But I think this is bound to change in the next patch, depending on how much the nerf to Charge will hurt an already precarious situation.

EDIT:
And I'm really, really pulling a straw in responding seriously to somebody who links Second Wind and Victory Rush trying to win an argument about sustain.

You're overstating ret's abilities in an effort to make it seem like warriors are worse off than they are, while attempting to dance around the point I was making - mobility among melee has wide discrepancies that give certain classes a very big advantage while unjustifiably penalizing others. I'd wage that the main reason you see ret more in pvp is the 25 sec trinket they offer. That alone is game-changing, all other things aside...and that alone does not change the fact that ret mobility needs improvement.

Citing "representation" as evidence of how well a class/spec is or isn't performing is just as bad as pvetards pointing to sims. It fails to take into account the fact that classes that are chosen for arena tend to be ones that excel in cookie-cutter comps like RMP. Arena is officially a total sideshow now that pvp gear is irrelevant, so participating within arena is mostly going to be the players who enjoy it. In the past when it was the only way to acquire the best pvp gear, many people would participate in arena even if they would rather have simply played casual pvp instances.

Second wind and victory rush are both self-heals that warriors have. Are you telling me that you lack the aptitude to fear/stun and leap away then LoS for a few seconds to gain the benefits of SW? Did you accidentally Q as arms instead of fury? Seems like you got outplayed at the spec selection menu.

Once again, the old ploy of pretending warriors are gimped is not going to work. I play one, I'm very good at playing a warrior and I'm well aware of its shortcomings AND advantages. Nobody is going to shed any tears if warriors get kited a bit more...in fact, I used to play one when warriors were relatively easy to kite and almost free kills to frost mages. Remember stance dancing? You probably don't, but there was a time when playing a warrior effectively required players to actually have skill.

If rated PvP is irrelevant - on which basis should PvP be balanced around? The fact you think that proves my point that you're a player that have no expertise on this field. Which some of your arguments here truly show, rofl. All warrior specs are fine? For what? Both fury and prot are unplayable at higher rating. What utility they lack? Everything. They only bring damage to the table whereas other classes bring equal damage and utility. Which is why the class has been underrepresented ever since the early nerf in Legion. Which is why you only saw one warrior in the whole Blizzcon tourney - and btw they got knocked out 3-0 asap. And that is also why warriors are getting buffed with utility next patch - thank god the Devs knows at least a little bit more than you.

Which one of our defensive CDS? We only have one. Parry. I'm talking about arms of course because the other two specs are useless. And then... and then when I asked you to find which heals we have that is spammable you go on and link fucking SECOND WIND AND VICTORY RUSH. I mean come on? Have you played this game for what, 2 days? There's not a single warrior specced intwo second wind on this planet because of how dogshit it is. Victory rush? 'spammable heal'? A heal that's only available AFTER you've killed someone - aka when a match is already over????

You consider that as a fucking spammable heal? Jesus christ man. And no, I don't think warrior should get fucking spammable heals. I'm just pointing out your stupid fucking arguments and it's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about. Link me your armory pls so I can see your achievments. Bet you're a sub 2k or even 1550 hero rofl.

The only thing you managed to prove is that you're as dumb as your writing suggests. Fury unplayable at high rating? Cry more. I'm glad that in your mind you've "defeated" my valid points by blowing inane comments right out of your buttox. The warrior class in WoW is not the "social justice warrior" you think it should be.

Is healing 4% of your HP every 4.5 seconds WHILE ALSO dealing damage NOT a spammable self-heal? Which DPS do you know of that has a spammable heal? You think a ret can flash-of-light forever? No, they get about 5 before going OOM...and that's if you're bad enough to let them stand and cast heals uninterrupted.

I don't think you've noticed, but rated pvp is dead. It's a joke. Anyone talking about rating today is only clowning themselves. We always get the derper who vacillates between the "durrr rating durrr" and "awwww representation no good durp" as if they're special snowflakes who deserve to be touched by the OP genie so they can be average again.

[Deleted]

Class rep is a hard fact. Sorry, but statistics are not democratic, there's no arguing around them, no cheesing around them.
People play and queue what's most effective, and the Hamstring nerf really hurt the class. You're really good at Warrioring? Good for you. Not good enough though.

Rets are a great melee at the moment, having very little weaknesses. Denying it makes no sense.
Have I complained about Rets? No. I know what they do because I play with one and need to know how to play against them.
Not once in that reply I oversell Rets, I simply posted stats and facts. It's not a subjective opinion, I wish it was.

And thanks for getting oh so very defensive in your assumptions on how I play, or my knowledge of the class. I can now tell you from the presumptous troll you are, and be a little sad about how a promising thread got sent to the gutter by its own op.

[Mafic]

Auto bubble is too much.

I watched a Ret stay mounted and ride away from everyone while auto bubble triggered. LOL

Casters need more mobility, because nerfing melee mobility means healers instantly become stronger as a result while casters still can't create gaps to hard cast.

[Cwimge]

How to make pvp great: Go play a game designed for pvp

So much this. Nothing else should matter to pvp scum

[Inukenshin]

Mobility:
Some classes have too much, some not enough. I get the idea that there needs to be a cat-and-mouse type of deal between ranged and melee, but let's compare a warrior's mobility to something like a ret paladin, monk, or feral. Fair deal? No, I think we can agree that in terms of mobility ret paladins are in the crapper while warriors are arguably at the top of the heap. Somewhere in the middle you have my class, enhance shaman, which has bad mobility but not the worst. As far as melee go I think ret paladins got the shortest end of the stick.

Damage:
Believe it or not, potential single target damage is consistent among all classes. The differences lie in the ability to deliver said damage in a pvp setting, where frequent movement, CC and avoidance are necessary elements in addition to simply applying your attacks. Melee and non-casters have a big advantage right now. If you have to stand and cast, you are going to get mad...very mad...if you draw the attention of any melee.

CCs:
It's really time to take a hard look at the excessive "loss of control" CC in the game. The DR for CC within instanced pvp should be based upon the team sizes, which means that larger team sizes result in more aggressive DR. This allows them to preserve "balance" for 3v3 while addressing the issue of mindless CC spam in battlegrounds.

Healing:
In most situations it feels like healing is fairly tuned. It's not too good, it's not weak. MW monks are a problem in pvp, and rdruids are still a bit too good since they can heal effectively without casting...aside from that, can't really complain.

Try PVP as a Fury warrior and then get back to me. 1v1 barring mistakes and/or bad RNG fury is inferior to every other class/spec. That being said, anyone that messes up once will probably lose except for ret/prot paladin and MW monk. Adding pocket healer to the mix and fury becomes pretty deadly i'll admit.

[Professor Expert]

Class rep is a hard fact. Sorry, but statistics are not democratic, there's no arguing around them, no cheesing around them.
People play and queue what's most effective, and the Hamstring nerf really hurt the class. You're really good at Warrioring? Good for you. Not good enough though.

Rets are a great melee at the moment, having very little weaknesses. Denying it makes no sense.
Have I complained about Rets? No. I know what they do because I play with one and need to know how to play against them.
Not once in that reply I oversell Rets, I simply posted stats and facts. It's not a subjective opinion, I wish it was.

And thanks for getting oh so very defensive in your assumptions on how I play, or my knowledge of the class. I can now tell you from the presumptous troll you are, and be a little sad about how a promising thread got sent to the gutter by its own op.

Ahh, yes. Call me a troll because you lost the debate. Good job SJW.

No, class rep is not indicative of individual class/spec performance. It's a myth perpetuated by whiners who want to justify being overpowered...

Enhancement shaman have traditionally had very poor "rep" in arena despite being quite excellent. They are difficult to play in competitive pvp because they have limited mobility, no substantial defensive CD like bubble, cloak of shadows, deterrence, ice block, etc that can shut down a "burst window", and dealing damage on enhance requires a lot of build-up and reliance on RNG procs (in the past it was less RNG).

The so-called "top players" consistently choose whichever classes they believe to be the best. They're not really experimenting. That has been proven by me time and time again with the mentality of fools on this forum who think parroting some guide, pointing to a sim or arguing based upon "what they heard" is a valid basis.

You have no idea how I play a warrior - you are the one attempting to portray them as gimped. I am not. That suggests to everyone that you are unable to exploit the full potential of the class effectively because you can only copy what someone else has done rather than developing your own style and strategy. Cookie-cutters, by definition, cannot change/adapt.

You did oversell rets by listing off a bunch of abilities they cannot use together, but can choose if they select the appropriate talents. You then try to downplay warriors, which have ALWAYS been healer-dependent in pvp, as if they should be able to provide the same utility as a ret while maintaining their OP mobility.

Auto bubble is too much.

I watched a Ret stay mounted and ride away from everyone while auto bubble triggered. LOL

Casters need more mobility, because nerfing melee mobility means healers instantly become stronger as a result while casters still can't create gaps to hard cast.

I will say that prot paladins are exceptionally annoying in pvp with the ability to mount while holding flag, and the shortened CD they have on divine steed. It could be emblematic of some of the terrible decisions being allowed into the live game.

So much this. Nothing else should matter to pvp scum

The majority of WoW players spend most of their end-game time in pvp, not running the same raids over and over again...the only reason pve participation is up, is due to the fact that pve gear is better in every way than the pvp gear that you get from any instance pvp.

Try PVP as a Fury warrior and then get back to me. 1v1 barring mistakes and/or bad RNG fury is inferior to every other class/spec. That being said, anyone that messes up once will probably lose except for ret/prot paladin and MW monk. Adding pocket healer to the mix and fury becomes pretty deadly i'll admit.

Warriors have been healer-dependent in competitive pvp since vanilla. That has never changed...which means that if you play one, be nice to healers.

[Deleted]

Ahh, yes. Call me a troll because you lost the debate. Good job SJW.

No, class rep is not indicative of individual class/spec performance. It's a myth perpetuated by whiners who want to justify being overpowered...

Enhancement shaman have traditionally had very poor "rep" in arena despite being quite excellent. They are difficult to play in competitive pvp because they have limited mobility, no substantial defensive CD like bubble, cloak of shadows, deterrence, ice block, etc that can shut down a "burst window", and dealing damage on enhance requires a lot of build-up and reliance on RNG procs (in the past it was less RNG).

The so-called "top players" consistently choose whichever classes they believe to be the best. They're not really experimenting. That has been proven by me time and time again with the mentality of fools on this forum who think parroting some guide, pointing to a sim or arguing based upon "what they heard" is a valid basis.

You have no idea how I play a warrior - you are the one attempting to portray them as gimped. I am not. That suggests to everyone that you are unable to exploit the full potential of the class effectively because you can only copy what someone else has done rather than developing your own style and strategy. Cookie-cutters, by definition, cannot change/adapt.

You did oversell rets by listing off a bunch of abilities they cannot use together, but can choose if they select the appropriate talents. You then try to downplay warriors, which have ALWAYS been healer-dependent in pvp, as if they should be able to provide the same utility as a ret while maintaining their OP mobility.

Quoting Enhas as being less rng in the past makes you an evident troll and an ignorant buffoon.

I've been playing Warrior for longer than I care to admit, I religiously watched my favourite spec go through thick and thin, and kids like you, coming in, barging without a clue about balance of the game, mixing up the state of PvP with things that their shiny tool lacks, always came up randomly. Often in legitimate places, like this thread that - let's be honest - could be an extremely productive place to discuss about what makes this iteration of PvP so lackluster.

And I didn't lose the argument, nor do I care. It's you who make assumptions on the level other people play showing an extreme lack of knowledge.
I don't need to prove anything to you. Want the win? Take it.

[Sunlighthell]

If they fire Holinka things may change. But they will not so pvp will remain garbage. Some jerk is in charge of balancing things, invented a bunch of failed concepts, not even playing wow, and he gone dark because he got so much hate from community for his "work". Now we have almost no pvp changes. Pvp templates are forgotten. Only some classes continue to receive idiotic nerfs (warlock int is at 50% in pvp, dot damage is at 30% at best, desturction got rekt because 2 sec casting 600k cbs are too much, etc, holy priests... I just don't know why they have pvp talents and can queu on arena, while things like ferals can solo your team with dots, mw monks with permanent aura mastery 100y jumps, stuns, cc, and free heals can just afk behind pillar, all those fdk with binded autoattack with 2k free rating

[Rottegift]

Quoting Enhas as being less rng in the past makes you an evident troll and an ignorant buffoon.

I've been playing Warrior for longer than I care to admit, I religiously watched my favourite spec go through thick and thin, and kids like you, coming in, barging without a clue about balance of the game, mixing up the state of PvP with things that their shiny tool lacks, always came up randomly. Often in legitimate places, like this thread that - let's be honest - could be an extremely productive place to discuss about what makes this iteration of PvP so lackluster.

And I didn't lose the argument, nor do I care. It's you who make assumptions on the level other people play showing an extreme lack of knowledge.
I don't need to prove anything to you. Want the win? Take it.

Just don't respond to him, he's an obvious troll. I mean he keeps trying to make a point warriors have spammable self heals when we have none. He's actually so retarded that he thinks victory rush is a spammable self heal - a heal that you can only use after you've killed a target and which you can only use once before you have to wait until killing another target. Clown.

Also he's against rated PvP so he wants to balance PvP around what? He still haven't answered. Duels? Casual BGs? There's no point discussing with him.

[Wow]

2) Why are DPS more durable than tanks, have amazing heals, plus do the damage they can do? Take that shit away. Take that survivability away and take the healing away. You shouldn't have it all.

Because they are terrible at balancing and tanks were god mode most of beta (at pretty much everything took the least dmg did the most dmg and healing and control) and when that kind of thing happens it normally causes overnerfing to happen with blizzard.

[Professor Expert]

Just don't respond to him, he's an obvious troll. I mean he keeps trying to make a point warriors have spammable self heals when we have none. He's actually so retarded that he thinks victory rush is a spammable self heal - a heal that you can only use after you've killed a target and which you can only use once before you have to wait until killing another target. Clown.

Also he's against rated PvP so he wants to balance PvP around what? He still haven't answered. Duels? Casual BGs? There's no point discussing with him.

Victory Rush is indeed spammable. Kill a player's pet, VR. Use AoE to tap a group of players, if any one of them dies due to your actions or the actions of someone on your team, VR.

And what do you call bloodthirst? Is your fail-ridden "argument" contingent upon ignoring obvious facts to make it appear that you are 'right'? hahaha

Who said I am "against" rated pvp? I'm against gross imbalances among classes that make pvp a lot more viable for a small group of class/specs.

If you going to comment on the intellectual capacity of others, it helps if you yourself are not a braindead moron.

- - - Updated - - -

Quoting Enhas as being less rng in the past makes you an evident troll and an ignorant buffoon.

Prior to the legion changes, enhancement was a CD based spec. It is now a "build spend" spec like warriors, dks, DH. The CD based spec meant that whenever your CD was up you could deal damage. You did not have to first build up a resource bar before you could use key abilities like your snare. It allowed you to time burst windows and deliver damage on demand at the right time. The only "rng" element was maelstrom generation and whether or not you had 5 to allow you to cast lightning bolt, hex, or insta heal.

Current changes have shifted the bulk of enhance damage to stormbringer procs on stormstrike. When it procs, bit damage can happen...but since you have no control over this, on-demand burst like all other melee get is simply not possible. Enhancement was far better up to the end of MoP.

So, at the very least, I commend you on choosing an appropriate screen name...you are indeed a fool, and you just got schooled. You're welcome.

I've been playing Warrior for longer than I care to admit, I religiously watched my favourite spec go through thick and thin, and kids like you, coming in, barging without a clue about balance of the game, mixing up the state of PvP with things that their shiny tool lacks, always came up randomly. Often in legitimate places, like this thread that - let's be honest - could be an extremely productive place to discuss about what makes this iteration of PvP so lackluster.

You haven't actually disproved my original point, that warrior mobility is too good in general, while other melee is stuck constantly chasing their targets. You're trying to bring up other issues that are not relevant to the discussion in response to the topic set in the original post. I suggest you pick any casting DPS class and see how you feel about warriors in a pvp setting...and by extension, other melee with "broken" mobility like monks, rogues, ferals, DH.

And I didn't lose the argument, nor do I care. It's you who make assumptions on the level other people play showing an extreme lack of knowledge.
I don't need to prove anything to you. Want the win? Take it.

Well you just did, and with your quip about enhancement revealing the fact that you're just looking for an argument even though you have no clue what you're talking about reinforces the fact that you lost.

[Deleted]

Mobility:
Some classes have too much, some not enough. I get the idea that there needs to be a cat-and-mouse type of deal between ranged and melee, but let's compare a warrior's mobility to something like a ret paladin, monk, or feral. Fair deal? No, I think we can agree that in terms of mobility ret paladins are in the crapper while warriors are arguably at the top of the heap. Somewhere in the middle you have my class, enhance shaman, which has bad mobility but not the worst. As far as melee go I think ret paladins got the shortest end of the stick.

Damage:
Believe it or not, potential single target damage is consistent among all classes. The differences lie in the ability to deliver said damage in a pvp setting, where frequent movement, CC and avoidance are necessary elements in addition to simply applying your attacks. Melee and non-casters have a big advantage right now. If you have to stand and cast, you are going to get mad...very mad...if you draw the attention of any melee.

CCs:
It's really time to take a hard look at the excessive "loss of control" CC in the game. The DR for CC within instanced pvp should be based upon the team sizes, which means that larger team sizes result in more aggressive DR. This allows them to preserve "balance" for 3v3 while addressing the issue of mindless CC spam in battlegrounds.

Healing:
In most situations it feels like healing is fairly tuned. It's not too good, it's not weak. MW monks are a problem in pvp, and rdruids are still a bit too good since they can heal effectively without casting...aside from that, can't really complain.

???? healing is fine???? fuck off

[Deleted]

EDIT: can't really bring myself to care.

[Deleted]

If rated PvP is irrelevant - on which basis should PvP be balanced around? The fact you think that proves my point that you're a player that have no expertise on this field. Which some of your arguments here truly show, rofl. All warrior specs are fine? For what? Both fury and prot are unplayable at higher rating. What utility they lack? Everything. They only bring damage to the table whereas other classes bring equal damage and utility. Which is why the class has been underrepresented ever since the early nerf in Legion. Which is why you only saw one warrior in the whole Blizzcon tourney - and btw they got knocked out 3-0 asap. And that is also why warriors are getting buffed with utility next patch - thank god the Devs knows at least a little bit more than you.

Which one of our defensive CDS? We only have one. Parry. I'm talking about arms of course because the other two specs are useless. And then... and then when I asked you to find which heals we have that is spammable you go on and link fucking SECOND WIND AND VICTORY RUSH. I mean come on? Have you played this game for what, 2 days? There's not a single warrior specced intwo second wind on this planet because of how dogshit it is. Victory rush? 'spammable heal'? A heal that's only available AFTER you've killed someone - aka when a match is already over????

You consider that as a fucking spammable heal? Jesus christ man. And no, I don't think warrior should get fucking spammable heals. I'm just pointing out your stupid fucking arguments and it's obvious that you have no clue what you're talking about. Link me your armory pls so I can see your achievments. Bet you're a sub 2k or even 1550 hero rofl.

Yeah that guy is so fucking clueless its painful.... he doesnt even know what spammable cc is.... He mentioned second wind being a self heal, yeah gl with that in arena (what pvp is balanced around, esp rated arenas).
He also mentioned that palas auto-bubble can be "countered" by one class which is god awful in pvp right now (not spriest tho).
Rets are by far the strongest dps for pvp atm countering literally any class except frost mages....... Good people like commenting on pvp is probably what blizzard caters to nowadays.