Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall

[Skroe]

Borders aren't useless government spending.

It's like saying all countries not at war should stop spending on their military.

Preventive measures is what they are.

Except as the posters above highlighted, a wall doesn't actually prevent squat.

Like you do realize that this wall won't actually do much of anything to actually stop illegal immigration at all, correct?

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Or more realistically, they're going to do exactly what Cubans and Central Americans already do to evade customs. It isn't like the US is bordered by two massive bodies of water.

Exactly. We've actually TRIED Moats (so to speak)! And they don't work!

Maybe after the Wall we can try putting a medieval castle every 30 miles. I'm sure there's some fortifications we haven't tried yet.

Quick Trumpkins! Fire up Age of Empires II HD!

[TrumpIsPresident]

Trump is President, but not my President and will never be.

Only way that is true is if you're not a US citizen.

[SL1200]

They're going to cut right through it with a saw like this.

[bewbew]

Except as the posters above highlighted, a wall doesn't actually prevent squat.

Like you do realize that this wall won't actually do much of anything to actually stop illegal immigration at all, correct?

Impossible.

Civilizations have been building walls for millenia to ward off against people they don't want in.

Most people with a criminal history in Mexico are not getting VISAs and just staying. They're crossing ilegally.

[Wells]

Impossible.

Civilizations have been building walls for millenia to ward off against people they don't want in.

Yeah and its never worked. Walls are dumb, people are smart.

Most people with a criminal history in Mexico are not getting VISAs and just staying. They're crossing ilegally.

Something like half of all illegal immigrants entered legally.

[bewbew]

Yeah and its never worked. Walls are dumb, people are smart.


Something like half of all illegal immigrants entered legally.

If people are smart, don't you agree they'd stop building walls after a few centuries of those not working?

Reason implies they do work in many scenarios.

And if half entered legally, it means the other half could be stopped. That's already good.

[Skroe]

Impossible.

Civilizations have been building walls for millenia to ward off against people they don't want in.

Most people with a criminal history in Mexico are not getting VISAs and just staying. They're crossing ilegally.

And they don't work. This history of defensive structures is a recurring tale about the failure of defensive fortifications. Walls... moats... turrets.... From the Great Wall of China to the Walls of Troy to Maginot Line, to the Atlantic Wall.... passive fortifications, be them continuous or a system of discontinuous placements, always invariably fail against a determined attacker.

Let's talk another kind of "wall". Why do you think the US has no coastal defenses to speak of... no huge network of integrated air defense comparable to the S400s that guard Moscow or anything like that? It's because active defenses, such as the fighter jet, the aircraft carrier, the warship with the missile is a more dynamic, less predictable and better defense than putting Patriot Missile batteries every 60 miles along the California Coastline.

It is the exact same thing with the border. If you were serious about securing the border, you'd be interested in more money for more patrols and better equipment, surveillance tech, drones, and enforcement of existing laws on both sides of the border. Instead of waiting for those people with a criminal history coming up against some ridiculous concrete predictable obstacle, use tech to intercept them so they can't plan for the oldest defensive structure known to man.

Lastly, the only way to surefire end illegal immigration is to reduce the economic incentive for it, on both sides of the border. Hell the Romans in a sense, figured that out. They too tried walls. It didn't work. They tried sending military forces to the frontier. That didn't work either. You know what they tried next? What we would call economic development.

But hey, let's ignore history and do the same stupid thing all over again. Because we're Americans and we're great!

[Kaleredar]

Like most people, your taxes will be going down.

So another republican president that thinks they can lower taxes while increasing government spending while writing blank checks and come off in the clear?

Bush had invading Afghanistan and the Iraq war, Trump is already starting out with a giant money pit of a wall and he's not even president. Plus whatever other boondoggles he both intentionally and inadvertently causes with his blinding incompetence.

And some fail to understand what Trump meant when he said Mexico would pay for the wall.

Actually Trump was pretty clear that he wanted to get Mexico to pay for the wall by holding their trade deficit against them in a way that sounded good to people who don't have any idea what that means or how that works but sounded like complete pandering bullshit to anyone paying a half-sense of attention.

Which category are you falling into, here?

[Skroe]

If people are smart, don't you agree they'd stop building walls after a few centuries of those not working?

Reason implies they do work in many scenarios.

And if half entered legally, it means the other half could be stopped. That's already good.

Walls got better. People got smarter. Walls got better. It's was back and forth thing.

But walls haven't been built on a massive CONTINUOUS scale in centuries. Pretty much since the invention of the cannon made them easily destructible. As a result, that's been given up for good. You ever wonder why the most elaborate and latest European fortifications all have walls made of earth and dirt? Because of the final defeat of the wall in a military assault - the explosive.



Since then the "walls" of the last 200 years have been mostly an analogy. They've been extensive systems of discontinuous fortifications, like the Maginot line, like the Atlantic Wall... and like the existing US-Mexican border.

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Only way that is true is if you're not a US citizen.

He will not be my President anymore than Chuck Schumer is my Senate Minority Leader. Trump is THE President and Schumer is THE Senate Minority Leader, but I do not support their policies, and did not vote for them, and I hope they both largely fail in what they do.

I'll reserve the word "my" for people I actually support, for politicians whose polices I agree with in principle. I'll offer my endorsement to those people. You like Trump's policies... even though hey's lied to you on a regular basis evidently, is a friend to this country's enemies and presents terrible idea after terrible idea. He can be your President.

Me on the other hand? I'm going to take delight when people like you get screwed the hardest by your guy. I'll be fine and waiting for someone I can endorse.

[Deleted]

The US can use the money that becomes available after cutting Obamacare to build that epic wall.

[Skroe]

The US can use the money that becomes available after cutting Obamacare to build that epic wall.

No we need to use it to increase the size of our Navy by 70 ships over 10 years, which will cost an average of $18 billion more per year.

Our wait no we need to use it to rebuild our nation's infrastructure! (Never mind State and Local Taxes pay and spend for almost all of that)

Oh wait we need to cut taxes while doing all the above!

There is legitimately no such thing as the Trump supporter who is an honest conservative. It's a contradiction in terms.

[Kasierith]

Impossible.

Civilizations have been building walls for millenia to ward off against people they don't want in.

Most people with a criminal history in Mexico are not getting VISAs and just staying. They're crossing ilegally.

The only comparable instance is the Great Wall of China, which while remarkably effective at deterring incursions and allowing the well organized military to respond rapidly to any threats, was able to be breached by smaller forces going back and forth due to the sheer length of the walls and the area that had to be covered. This did not diminish its effectiveness, as it was established to stop Mongolian raiders and such that were inherently reliant on cavalry, mobility, and surprise... a few poachers tunneling through a portion really weren't a relative concern. The maintenance costs of repairing the wall not only due to the element but also these incursions, with patching tunnels and damage to the wall made by these more low scale attacks.

That I am not aware of, Mexican immigrants do not routinely ride through outlying villages on cavalry raping and plundering before disappearing into the wilderness before the imperial army can respond. So the single historical context for a massive wall across an entire border frontier (meaning both in civilized and wild areas) does not apply.

[Mormolyce]

I don't know where most of you get your sources while you keep trying to peg people who voted for Trump all sorts of different things, but no one I know that voted for Trump (this includes democrats that voted for Trump) actually thought Mexico would be forced to build a wall. Things like that aren't taken as a literal and mostly used to represent a problem that exists.

So they thought Mexico would metaphorically pay for the wall?

There's a drug war in Mexico in case no one noticed that has killed over 160.000 people. There's vast amounts of cash and guns that go from America to Mexico.

Maybe you should do something about that?

Legalise the drugs, grow or manufacture them domestically and cut Mexico out.

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If people are smart, don't you agree they'd stop building walls after a few centuries of those not working?

Reason implies they do work in many scenarios.

And if half entered legally, it means the other half could be stopped. That's already good.

Walls are designed to supplement an army in repelling another army. It slows them down long enough for the opposing army to respond, due to the logistics of moving thousands of men and their supplies and horses over a wall. They don't stop individuals, since we have this thing called ladders.

Tourists regularly climb over the Great Wall of China. You can get over Hadrian's wall with your bare hands.

If you wanted to stop individuals you'd have to man every foot of the wall 24/7. If you could do that you wouldn't need a wall.

[Ravenblade]

Hah, I knew it. It was a too outrageous promise to be kept, it was surreal, disconnected from reality, that kind of promise which would even be rejected by powerful rulers in fantasy worlds where unicorns reign the shires and orcs raid innocent gnome traders. I am not even sad about people who solely voted because of that promise and believed every single letter of it and even claimed he would extend the wall 100 kilometres into the sea. There won't be a new wall, the Mexican border has always been called the safest and most tight as well as long border (after the GDR wall anyway). Anyway the age of walls has ended centuries ago and these days people have means of circumventing them (tunnels, drones, self-made subs etc.). You'd rather need more effective means to guard the border rather than building better walls or other stationary installations. It is not very smart to do so and would end up more expensive than anything else.

[Mormolyce]

Want to try something that works? Make your economy shit, then they'll leave.

Best part of this plan: you don't have to do anything. It's been happening for a decade.

More Mexicans Leaving Than Coming to the U.S.
Net Loss of 140,000 from 2009 to 2014; Family Reunification Top Reason for Return

More Mexican immigrants have returned to Mexico from the U.S. than have migrated here since the end of the Great Recession, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of newly available government data from both countries. The same data sources also show the overall flow of Mexican immigrants between the two countries is at its smallest since the 1990s, mostly due to a drop in the number of Mexican immigrants coming to the U.S.

http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/11/1...ng-to-the-u-s/


https://www.becomingamericaninstitut...n-from-mexico/

Assuming this wall works, it'll actually SEAL THE JUICES IN.

[jugzilla]

If I was Trump, I would deploy the US Army to the border and order them start building that wall. The army pays far less than minimum wage, and could fortify that border in a week or two. The media would complain of course "who is paying for this..." I would look that media right in the eyes, grab my balls, spit on the the ground, and say...YOU

[CostinR]

Legalise the drugs, grow or manufacture them domestically and cut Mexico out.

You can't legalize Cocaine, Meth and Heroin. It simply isn't palpable with the American public. Legalizing weed is but that's only part of the equation.

I am not saying legalization of drugs is a bad idea, what I am saying is that it wouldn't be an easy thing to do. It's easier to beef up border security.

[Orbitus]

A quick google search would show he accomplished quite a lot. Or did "change" mean something specific?

Obviously Obama was supposed to, personally, make them millionaires. Instead of just giving them healthcare, a job, and a better economy.

[Skroe]

If I was Trump, I would deploy the US Army to the border and order them start building that wall. The army pays far less than minimum wage, and could fortify that border in a week or two. The media would complain of course "who is paying for this..." I would look that media right in the eyes, grab my balls, spit on the the ground, and say...YOU

This is a legitimate fantasy right?

(1) The only parts of the US Army qualified to build fortifications like that is the Corps of Engineers, most of which is civilian by the way, and not uniformed military. THey are paid far more than minimum wage.

(2) The Pentagon would basically revolt. This falls extremely far outside of their mission scope and would consume manpower, money and training that must be spent on their core missions.

(3) A 2000 mile wall could not be built in "2 weeks". That's absurd.

[Deleted]

I doubt anyone bought that promise as is...
everyone just rejoiced at something in that direction being done.