Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Nonton]

Looking a bit ahead here and I plan on getting sub/outlaw weapons to 35 regardless but... quick question

I'm currently 38 point into my Assass weapon and have bracers/waist which are pretty good legendaries. I'm 885 equipped with my stats itemized for Assass (Nonton-Zul'Jin if you want to check). I've been reading that Sub will be the way to go come 7.1.5 so I'm preparing to make the swap, but as it stands with my current version of SimCraft (which I don't believe is updated for 7.1.5) my Assass sims 100k higher. Should I expect this to change right when 7.1.5 ships or will I need to itemize better and get the 4pc/more points in my weapon before sub passes my Assass? My sub spec will be using Cinidaria and either Prydaz or Sephuz (thinking Sephuz for dungeons and Prydaz for raids).

Just kind of worried about the swap being worth it. I have better legendaries on Assass and am more familiar with the rotation. I just got my 4th legendary so don't expect to get one for Sub any time soon, so I'm considering just keeping my loot spec as Assass until when/if my sub spec surpasses my Assass without legendaries, but I don't know if that's even in the cards. Wondering about what people would suggest for me moving forward.

[elfporn]

Looking a bit ahead here and I plan on getting sub/outlaw weapons to 35 regardless but... quick question

I'm currently 38 point into my Assass weapon and have bracers/waist which are pretty good legendaries. I'm 885 equipped with my stats itemized for Assass (Nonton-Zul'Jin if you want to check). I've been reading that Sub will be the way to go come 7.1.5 so I'm preparing to make the swap, but as it stands with my current version of SimCraft (which I don't believe is updated for 7.1.5) my Assass sims 100k higher. Should I expect this to change right when 7.1.5 ships or will I need to itemize better and get the 4pc/more points in my weapon before sub passes my Assass? My sub spec will be using Cinidaria and either Prydaz or Sephuz (thinking Sephuz for dungeons and Prydaz for raids).

Just kind of worried about the swap being worth it. I have better legendaries on Assass and am more familiar with the rotation. I just got my 4th legendary so don't expect to get one for Sub any time soon, so I'm considering just keeping my loot spec as Assass until when/if my sub spec surpasses my Assass without legendaries, but I don't know if that's even in the cards. Wondering about what people would suggest for me moving forward.

it's entirely possible just the 4p will put you ahead of assassination.

you can do the transition slowly, but getting a sub legendary will definitely put you ahead, and you may want to wait on that.

[Axaion]

I was using the latest build on the main page which is 710-03. 520k on live. nvm the ptr on that. the latest 715 nightly build puts me on 516k. too much has changed from the 20 dec build I guess and I don't use simcraft often.

Still doesnt sound right, how many iterations are you running?

Or is the armory just way out of date on your char?

[Abalon]

So I'm assuming I shouldn't switch to sin since I have both boots and bracers and 40 in weap?

[shaunika123]

So I'm assuming I shouldn't switch to sin since I have both boots and bracers and 40 in weap?

you can swap your loot spec tho, in case an assa leg drops if you want to swap, boots and bracers are the only sub specific legendaries anyway

[elfporn]

So I'm assuming I shouldn't switch to sin since I have both boots and bracers and 40 in weap?

You keep asking for advice about your legendaries - you're in a solid place with what you have, sticking with sub will mean you should be sitting comfortably over 85th percentile on most fights, depending on gear and artifact wep lvl, you should be over 95th percentile on just about everything with the legendaries you have.

So no, you shouldn't switch to sin because as sub you're in a better position with your current legendaries, though you could switch loot spec to build up your collection.

[SSJones]

it's entirely possible just the 4p will put you ahead of assassination.

you can do the transition slowly, but getting a sub legendary will definitely put you ahead, and you may want to wait on that.

This is what people said at the beginning of the expac as well. I did a lot of progression week based sims on 715 simc the other day, taking my current sub and sin gear and swapping in 4 piece + convergance. Sin stayed ahead for me, 588k to 569k, and the scalings on agil/mastery/crit/vers/haste were very close. Sin had much higher mastery scaling, sub had slightly higher agil and haste scaling. This is with the only DPS legendary being Dreadlord's Deceit, so the same for both specs.

Swapping in BiS lego's, wrists in both cases, brought Sub to just above Sin, but it was still within 1% at 632 to 626, and the scaling factors stayed very similar. I don't believe sub is going to dramatically outscale Sin in NH. What Sub will probably be better at is AoE with a priority target, which is like half the fights in NH. Having wrist or boot Sin lego's will probably keep it well ahead on single target (and possibly even AoE with Sin wrists) until you get Denial wrists for Sub.

The last thing to remember is that thus far, Sub sims have been relatively hard to reach in reality, where Sin sims have been pretty close for most.

[elfporn]

This is what people said at the beginning of the expac as well. I did a lot of progression week based sims on 715 simc the other day, taking my current sub and sin gear and swapping in 4 piece + convergance. Sin stayed ahead for me, 588k to 569k, and the scalings on agil/mastery/crit/vers/haste were very close. Sin had much higher mastery scaling, sub had slightly higher agil and haste scaling. This is with the only DPS legendary being Dreadlord's Deceit, so the same for both specs.

Swapping in BiS lego's, wrists in both cases, brought Sub to just above Sin, but it was still within 1% at 632 to 626, and the scaling factors stayed very similar. I don't believe sub is going to dramatically outscale Sin in NH. What Sub will probably be better at is AoE with a priority target, which is like half the fights in NH. Having wrist or boot Sin lego's will probably keep it well ahead on single target (and possibly even AoE with Sin wrists) until you get Denial wrists for Sub.

The last thing to remember is that thus far, Sub sims have been relatively hard to reach in reality, where Sin sims have been pretty close for most.

At the moment, the sub 4p is significantly more powerful than the live version of the sub boots. I'm not considering damage, just the impact the 4p will have on our rotation.

With anticipation buffed to 10, and the 4p bonus, CP waste will be at a minimum, even with SB up. This means more energy. Unlike with the boots, most of the extra energy won't be wasted and we can fit more damage in with fewer GCD's. All while never running out of dance charges.

Our normal rotation will go from 2 finishers between each time you press dance, to 3. We will generate a dance charge each time we dance, maybe needing the occasional backstab. (4 SS+ shadow tech procs over a 7-10 second period)

With SB up your rotation turns into 7 GCD's, 4 SS and 3 finishers, and with the bracers up, you'll be able to extend SB over a minute, maybe even to 1.5 minutes.

I don't know about you, but i can maintain about ~700k dps for the duration of SB right now(without boots/bracers), and i will definitely be able to do it if i get this set bonus, dropping down a bit when lust falls off of course.

In short, the 4p is a wet dream, almost(but not quite) twice as good as live boots. Good enough that our rogues get priority on our tier over anyone else.

Hopefully i've put it into context.

And hopefully this bandaid to bad design doesn't get nerfed too badly.

[SSJones]

At the moment, the sub 4p is significantly more powerful than the live version of the sub boots. I'm not considering damage, just the impact the 4p will have on our rotation.

With anticipation buffed to 10, and the 4p bonus, CP waste will be at a minimum, even with SB up. This means more energy. Unlike with the boots, most of the extra energy won't be wasted and we can fit more damage in with fewer GCD's. All while never running out of dance charges.

Yes, this is all true, and I was running sims using the most recent 7.1.5 simc, with anticipation, and all the changes Aethys has put in for rogue APL's. All I'm saying is that from a pure scaling outlook, it didn't appear that Sub is going to dramatically outscale Sin to the point where it is the only thing to use. If you have bracers, it is obviously very good. The 4 piece bonus + convergance isn't bringing sub WAY OVER Sin, it is taking it from well below to slightly over.

Any of the rogue specs can maintain 700k+ DPS during the duration of their cooldowns. Yes bracers extend that cooldown. Yes you will be running 2xSS, finisher, 2xSS, Finisher, Finisher as a dance rotation with anticipation. With the bracers at least. If you don't have the bracers, you will have ~25-30% uptime on shadowblades with 4 piece + Convergance. With bracers it sim'd to be more like 70%+.

Also, you won't be generating a shadow dance every dance. You will use 15 combo points every 7 seconds from the point of dance, for 45 second reduction on a minute cooldown. Leaving 8 seconds of downtime lost per dance, and you will still have some additional downtime between dances for pooling. It's still crazy, and will probably mean effective 100% uptime under shadow blades (when you can just sit on targets without losing any dps time) but you are definitely not infinitely regenerating charges unless I am mistaken.

Again, all I'm trying to point out here, is that this doesn't put Sub miles ahead of Sin on single target through NH. It's that without these things (4 piece bonus being so much stronger, and convergance proc'ing so much more for Sub than for Sin), it would be well behind. With equal legendary availability and artifact levels, they will be comparable. I'm probably going to push Sin to 54 first before NH opens, and then work on taking Sub from 35 to 54 for AoE, and possibly ST as well later.

[elfporn]

Hmm youre right, it will be 45sec redux per 3 finisher, mindset still on deeper strat. With vanish and goremaws to keep up, we still should never run out.

[SSJones]

Hmm youre right, it will be 45sec redux per 3 finisher, mindset still on deeper strat. With vanish and goremaws to keep up, we still should never run out.

Without the bracers and/or boot legos, you will definitely still run out sometimes.

[Critical92]

I hope my 5th legy will be the bracers. I am currently sitting on sub boots, sephuz, belt and outlaw boots(forgot to switch back after hfc myth transmog run)
Sub's playstyle with boots is so smooth that it makes more fun than outlaw and assa combined.
In Open World with the belt i oneshot every normal mob and even players take an opener only auto pally bubble proc can safe them.
I am currently 877 (had no intention to run myth yet) but the consistent dps sub can pull when you know how to manage charges is phenomenal.
What Sub lacks is the extreme burst potencial other specs have but those fall down if the boss doesn't die the next few secs.

[Shivers1]

At the moment, the sub 4p is significantly more powerful than the live version of the sub boots. I'm not considering damage, just the impact the 4p will have on our rotation.

With anticipation buffed to 10, and the 4p bonus, CP waste will be at a minimum, even with SB up. This means more energy. Unlike with the boots, most of the extra energy won't be wasted and we can fit more damage in with fewer GCD's. All while never running out of dance charges.

Our normal rotation will go from 2 finishers between each time you press dance, to 3. We will generate a dance charge each time we dance, maybe needing the occasional backstab. (4 SS+ shadow tech procs over a 7-10 second period)

With SB up your rotation turns into 7 GCD's, 4 SS and 3 finishers, and with the bracers up, you'll be able to extend SB over a minute, maybe even to 1.5 minutes.

I don't know about you, but i can maintain about ~700k dps for the duration of SB right now(without boots/bracers), and i will definitely be able to do it if i get this set bonus, dropping down a bit when lust falls off of course.

In short, the 4p is a wet dream, almost(but not quite) twice as good as live boots. Good enough that our rogues get priority on our tier over anyone else.

Hopefully i've put it into context.

And hopefully this bandaid to bad design doesn't get nerfed too badly.

You jinxed it, damn it.

[Todesbote]

You jinxed it, damn it.

Item - Rogue T19 Subtlety 4P Bonus: Shadowstrike has a 30% chance to generate an additional combo point when used on targets affected by your Nightblade, down from 100%.

Great. More RNG in our resource management is was this spec needed. R fucking I. P.

[Deleted]

My reaction after I read the news:

[DakonBlackblade]

At the moment, the sub 4p is significantly more powerful than the live version of the sub boots. I'm not considering damage, just the impact the 4p will have on our rotation.

With anticipation buffed to 10, and the 4p bonus, CP waste will be at a minimum, even with SB up. This means more energy. Unlike with the boots, most of the extra energy won't be wasted and we can fit more damage in with fewer GCD's. All while never running out of dance charges.

Our normal rotation will go from 2 finishers between each time you press dance, to 3. We will generate a dance charge each time we dance, maybe needing the occasional backstab. (4 SS+ shadow tech procs over a 7-10 second period)

With SB up your rotation turns into 7 GCD's, 4 SS and 3 finishers, and with the bracers up, you'll be able to extend SB over a minute, maybe even to 1.5 minutes.

I don't know about you, but i can maintain about ~700k dps for the duration of SB right now(without boots/bracers), and i will definitely be able to do it if i get this set bonus, dropping down a bit when lust falls off of course.

In short, the 4p is a wet dream, almost(but not quite) twice as good as live boots. Good enough that our rogues get priority on our tier over anyone else.

Hopefully i've put it into context.

And hopefully this bandaid to bad design doesn't get nerfed too badly.

And then Blizzard murdered the 4p, it was only a very small nerf of less 70% effectiveness.

[Deleted]

And then Blizzard murdered the 4p, it was only a very small nerf of less 70% effectiveness.

From my understanding, it's actually significantly more than a 70% nerf as it's RNG and therefore we'll have to play under the assumption that it will not proc instead playing with the knowledge of exactly how many combo points Shadowstrike will give us. This means that a lot of procs will get wasted (using SS on 4 points (or 3 with SB active) and getting a proc) and as such, we won't actually gain an additional combo point on 30% of our Shadowstrikes.

[Deleted]

If they wanted the dmg to be skill based and still nerf it they would had put a cd on the time 4p proc. Instead the turn it RNG, legion devs with ideas like random rng bis legendarys and RTB for outlaw.

Imagine devs got to handle real sports, it would been rng instead of skill. Football goals got a roll for how many score a goal would give

[Axaion]

lmaoing at the t19 4pc sub nerf

Look i get it, the people doing sub changes in legion were the ones that got kicked out of Diablo 3 or something, and now they have to ruin this too.

To these devs, please leave, get medical help, gambling addiction is a real thing and you NEED HELP.

[cface]

So sad Blizzards nerf solution is to put in RNG. I hate RNG CP generation. Which talents are strong to take with this? Is anticipation good?