Trump will ask Congress, not Mexico, to pay for border wall

[Youn]

Undocumented doesn't mean they don't know they are in country. It only means they don't have a visa to stay in country.

[Total Crica]

Trump thinks that bullying Mexico by placing trade restrictions and tarrifs, etc on them will make them eventually pay back what we spend building the wall.

To ppl who think healthcare is expensive because poor people (including illegal immigrants) are treated, it's not.

Healthcare is expensive because it's in high demand with very few talented/educated people performing those jobs allowing those that perform the healthcare jobs that require a lot of talent/education to charge as much as ppl who need their service will give them.

[NineSpine]

So tell me, how do you do an analysis based on a number, that you do not actually have?

Undocumented = They do not know.

So any number they use for any analysis is 100% wrong because they do not know how many undocumented immigrants exist. Hence, they are undocumented.

Statistics is a way 'lie' by hiding key facts behind cherry picked numbers.

Except we do know how many undocumented people are in the country, by various measures which all agree. Here is a good analysis of how Pew gets their numbers for it:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/h...nts-there-are/

This is a really great teachable moment though. You are convinced that because YOU are profoundly ignorant on this topic, EVERYONE ELSE must also be profoundly ignorant, when in reality there are tons of people whose job it is to figure these things out.

[kail]

So tell me, how do you do an analysis based on a number, that you do not actually have?

Undocumented = They do not know.

So any number they use for any analysis is 100% wrong because they do not know how many undocumented immigrants exist. Hence, they are undocumented.

Statistics is a way 'lie' by hiding key facts behind cherry picked numbers.

Also, if they are undocumented, they do not have a SSN, which means they are not paying ANY taxes on any money they receive.

This post is only part true but even if you are entirely correct, why not process them and assign the SSNs so they are counted and paying all their due taxes?

[shimerra]

So tell me, how do you do an analysis based on a number, that you do not actually have?

Undocumented = They do not know.

So any number they use for any analysis is 100% wrong because they do not know how many undocumented immigrants exist. Hence, they are undocumented.

Statistics is a way 'lie' by hiding key facts behind cherry picked numbers.

Also, if they are undocumented, they do not have a SSN, which means they are not paying ANY taxes on any money they receive.

As some who actually has significant education in statistics I'd ask you refrain from criticizing something you clearly don't have the capacity to understand.

1. Many undocumented workers use fake ssn numbers. There are also taxes like the gas tax or sales tax that are done at point of sale as well as taxes levied based on renting properties. Seriously two seconds of thought answers that question.

2. There are other ways to survey these populations. No it's not always perfect but if you actually understood what you are criticizing you'd know there are ways to calculate error rates. Either way your ignorance leaves you 100% untrustworthy to criticize their numbers.

[Deleted]

I don't really know what to say. I mean, on one hand, he is indeed backtracking, but in the end, only stupid people expected Mexico to pay for the wall.

On the other hand, there's 2 things:
1. I'm surprised he actually wants to go ahead with the wall building, I didn't expect that.

2. He has already taken money from Mexico, though in a different way. Both General Motors and Ford had wanted to move factories there but after some calls from Trump they seem to now want to build the factories in the USA "because that was the plan all along" (yea sure ). In a way, this is taking money from Mexico.

[Skalm]

Except we do know how many undocumented people are in the country, by various measures which all agree. Here is a good analysis of how Pew gets their numbers for it:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/h...nts-there-are/

This is a really great teachable moment though. You are convinced that because YOU are profoundly ignorant on this topic, EVERYONE ELSE must also be profoundly ignorant, when in reality there are tons of people whose job it is to figure these things out.

Yeah, let't go straight to personal attacks...


2nd paragraph in your link:

It’s a reasonable question. For obvious reasons, there’s no official count of undocumented immigrants, and people who are here illegally are understandably reluctant to disclose their status to pollsters.

So right there, what I said is true. They do not know how many there are and any number they give is wrong.

Here is the third paragraph:

The numbers I used in Wednesday’s article came from the Pew Research Center, which estimates there were 11.7 million unauthorized immigrants in the U.S. in 2012. When it released that figure last fall, Pew also published an interview with senior demographer Jeffrey S. Passel explaining his approach; for a more detailed explanation of the center’s methodology, see Passel and colleague D’Vera Cohn’s 2008 paper.

See that bolded part? That means they do not know, and they are essentially making up the number using statistics. Which statistics can and are used to get results you want, even if they are not necessarily accurate.

The bottom line is, they do NOT know how many illegal immigrants there are, and they never will. So what I said is still true.

So yeah, keep with the insults.

[NineSpine]

Yeah, let't go straight to personal attacks...


2nd paragraph in your link:


So right there, what I said is true. They do not know how many there are and any number they give is wrong.

"No official count" just means the government doesn't provide a government-approved stat.

Here is the third paragraph:


See that bolded part? That means they do not know, and they are essentially making up the number using statistics. Which statistics can and are used to get results you want, even if they are not necessarily accurate.

The bottom line is, they do NOT know how many illegal immigrants there are, and they never will. So what I said is still true.

So yeah, keep with the insults.

No, "estimate" and "don't know" are not the same thing. I estimate that I have $40 in my pocket right now. That doesn't mean it is equally likely that I have $40 or $40,000,000. I estimate that it takes about three minutes to walk to my car from my desk at work. That doesn't mean it is equally likely that it takes three minutes or ten years.

Once again, you seem to believe your personal ignorance about not just basic statistics as a field of mathematics, but the definitions of common words like "estimate", is a substitute for knowledge. Just because you are deeply, profoundly ignorant and don't want to be educated doesn't mean everyone else is also that lazy and stupid.

infracted - minor flaming

[Skalm]

As some who actually has significant education in statistics I'd ask you refrain from criticizing something you clearly don't have the capacity to understand.

1. Many undocumented workers use fake ssn numbers. There are also taxes like the gas tax or sales tax that are done at point of sale as well as taxes levied based on renting properties. Seriously two seconds of thought answers that question.

Yeah, many do use fake SSN. And Many do not. So whats your point?

Gas/Sales Tax does not go to healthcare which is what my original post was in response to.

2. There are other ways to survey these populations. No it's not always perfect but if you actually understood what you are criticizing you'd know there are ways to calculate error rates. Either way your ignorance leaves you 100% untrustworthy to criticize their numbers.

Yeah, there are ways to survey people. But it is not accurate, which is what I stated. That any number they come up with is wrong.

And yeah, there are ways to come up with a margin of error. But when your original numbers used to calculate that margin are not correct. The margin cannot be correct either.

If you have the education/experience in Statistics that you claim, then you know that Statistics can be and is used to 'lie'. But maybe you do not like the word 'lie' as it is not entirely accurate either.

A better term would be 'misled'.

[Paranoid Android]

Trump thinks that bullying Mexico by placing trade restrictions and tarrifs, etc on them will make them eventually pay back what we spend building the wall.

To ppl who think healthcare is expensive because poor people (including illegal immigrants) are treated, it's not.

Healthcare is expensive because it's in high demand with very few talented/educated people performing those jobs allowing those that perform the healthcare jobs that require a lot of talent/education to charge as much as ppl who need their service will give them.

I don not get Trumpsters logic.

Tariffs and taxes are going to hurt the American consumer.

Even if Trumpsters wet dream that he brings back jobs from Mexico. Let's say a million jobs. How is bringing back jobs really paying for the wall? Great for the American job market and economy. This is not directly making Mexico pay for the wall.

[Skalm]

No, "estimate" and "don't know" are not the same thing. I estimate that I have $40 in my pocket right now. That doesn't mean it is equally likely that I have $40 or $40,000,000. I estimate that it takes about three minutes to walk to my car from my desk at work. That doesn't mean it is equally likely that it takes three minutes or ten years.

Once again, you seem to believe your personal ignorance about not just basic statistics as a field of mathematics, but the definitions of common words like "estimate", is a substitute for knowledge. Just because you are deeply, profoundly ignorant and don't want to be educated doesn't mean everyone else is also that lazy and stupid.

As you said, estimating you have $40 does not mean it is just as likely to be $40,000,000.

But what if you actually open your wallet and have $50? Does that mean your estimate was correct? No it does not.

3 minutes to walk to your car? What if it is actually 5? Same here, your estimate was not correct.

Your estimates would be wrong. Yes they were somewhat close. But it not correct. Which is what I am stating with regards to the number of immigrants.

Just because you want to pick two astronomically different values, to try to prove your point...does not make you magically correct and my statement incorrect.

And why do you try to use insults? Does it make you feel special to try to insult others? Do you want to get people to report your posts? Do you need a break from the forums but can't control yourself enough to do it on your own, so you need a 'higher' power to forcefully stop you?

[NineSpine]

Yeah, many do use fake SSN. And Many do not. So whats your point?

Gas/Sales Tax does not go to healthcare which is what my original post was in response to.



Yeah, there are ways to survey people. But it is not accurate, which is what I stated. That any number they come up with is wrong.

And yeah, there are ways to come up with a margin of error. But when your original numbers used to calculate that margin are not correct. The margin cannot be correct either.

If you have the education/experience in Statistics that you claim, then you know that Statistics can be and is used to 'lie'. But maybe you do not like the word 'lie' as it is not entirely accurate either.

A better term would be 'misled'.

I provided you a comprehensive analysis of how Pew comes to those numbers. They don't call people up and say "R U LEGAL BRO?" It's a complex analysis using multiple datasets that compares those datasets to validate the results. Your argument is basically "LOL MATH!"

[Skalm]

I don not get Trumpsters logic.

Tariffs and taxes are going to hurt the American consumer.

Even if Trumpsters wet dream that he brings back jobs from Mexico. Let's say a million jobs. How is bringing back jobs really paying for the wall? Great for the American job market and economy. This is not directly making Mexico pay for the wall.

From what I understand. He is going to make them pay for the wall by taking money away from them.

Either through tariffs or less aid or what not.

Take the 'aid' angle for example.

Equate this to a paycheck they get from the U.S., every year. Instead of giving them the full 200,000,000 he will 'deduct' 100,000,000 from their check (like it was a court ordered deduction to pay debt on a car loan or credit card or something).

I think this is how he plans to make them 'pay' for the wall.

[NineSpine]

As you said, estimating you have $40 does not mean it is just as likely to be $40,000,000.

But what if you actually open your wallet and have $50? Does that mean your estimate was correct? No it does not.

3 minutes to walk to your car? What if it is actually 5? Same here, your estimate was not correct.

Your estimates would be wrong. Yes they were somewhat close. But it not correct. Which is what I am stating with regards to the number of immigrants.

That's what an estimate is: A rough or approximate calculation. That's why pew gives a low and high range, because it is an estimate, not a solid simple number. Most figures are estimates. How many people are there on Earth? In the United States? How many cells are in your body? This dumbass notion you are peddling that estimates are worthless figures that shouldn't be trusted, in favor of blind, stupid ignorance, is asinine.

Just because you want to pick two astronomically different values, to try to prove your point...does not make you magically correct and my statement incorrect.

And why do you try to use insults? Does it make you feel special to try to insult others? Do you want to get people to report your posts? Do you need a break from the forums but can't control yourself enough to do it on your own, so you need a 'higher' power to forcefully stop you?

Because people like you, who flagrantly deny reality and whine that math is an evil liberal conspiracy, aren't worth respect. You are worth mockery and laughter, and little more, when you make arguments as asinine as these.

- - - Updated - - -

From what I understand. He is going to make them pay for the wall by taking money away from them.

Either through tariffs or less aid or what not.

Take the 'aid' angle for example.

Equate this to a paycheck they get from the U.S., every year. Instead of giving them the full 200,000,000 he will 'deduct' 100,000,000 from their check (like it was a court ordered deduction to pay debt on a car loan or credit card or something).

I think this is how he plans to make them 'pay' for the wall.

All a tariff will do is increase the cost of goods in the U.S., which means Americans pay for it.

[Paranoid Android]

From what I understand. He is going to make them pay for the wall by taking money away from them.

Either through tariffs or less aid or what not.

Take the 'aid' angle for example.

Equate this to a paycheck they get from the U.S., every year. Instead of giving them the full 200,000,000 he will 'deduct' 100,000,000 from their check (like it was a court ordered deduction to pay debt on a car loan or credit card or something).

I think this is how he plans to make them 'pay' for the wall.

Foreign aid to Mexico is $51 million. I'll give you that you can add up say another $50 million or whatever. The wall is estimated at $10 to $12 billion plus manning the wall.

This logic is like me buying a Ferrari and telling them I will pay $1k/year until paid for.

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All a tariff will do is increase the cost of goods in the U.S., which means Americans pay for it.

I don't think Trumpsters know this.

[Skalm]

I provided you a comprehensive analysis of how Pew comes to those numbers. They don't call people up and say "R U LEGAL BRO?" It's a complex analysis using multiple datasets that compares those datasets to validate the results. Your argument is basically "LOL MATH!"

I read it, and I understand how they come up with those numbers. All I was stating, is that their numbers do not give an accurate count of immigrants.

You could use statistics all day long to tell me there are 10 fingers on every human beings hand with a 10% margin of error.

But I am not going to believe that every single person in the world has 10 fingers.

I apologize if I did not make that evidently clear that I was just stating that their numbers do not give the actual number of immigrants and so that any data they try to come up with based off that number will be inherently wrong (based on their margin of error, which is also not 100% accurate).

[Tijuana]

Still amazed anyone bought that one.

I think most people assumed the premise was putting NAFTA in the shredder would more than pay for it figuratively. I'm sure some thought he literally meant Mexico would pay for it but, whoever they are, they surely are not much fun to chat with.

[Belize]

Foreign aid to Mexico is $51 million. I'll give you that you can add up say another $50 million or whatever. The wall is estimated at $10 to $12 billion plus manning the wall.

This logic is like me buying a Ferrari and telling them I will pay $1k/year until paid for.

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I don't think Trumpsters know this.

Actually, to the taxpayers, it's more like this.

You (taxpayer) buy me (giant dumb orange cheeto) a Ferrari, and then I ask my friend Rodrigo over here is going to give you 1K/year until it's paid off. Rodrigo is not willing to do so in any way shape or form.

[Kaleredar]

I think most people assumed the premise was putting NAFTA in the shredder would more than pay for it figuratively. I'm sure some thought he literally meant Mexico would pay for it but, whoever they are, they surely are not much fun to chat with.

Trump himself said that he wanted to levy Mexico's trade deficit against them and that would somehow "pay for the wall."


...Despite the trade deficit not actually being a physical amount of money owned by the mexican government.


Again, the wall is just pandering, scapegoating bullshit not even designed to solve an already practically non-existent problem.

[Skalm]

Foreign aid to Mexico is $51 million. I'll give you that you can add up say another $50 million or whatever. The wall is estimated at $10 to $12 billion plus manning the wall.

This logic is like me buying a Ferrari and telling them I will pay $1k/year until paid for.

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I don't think Trumpsters know this.

I'll admit that I did not look up the exact number of what aid we give. I was just trying to give what I took from his tweets or whatever in that article of how I understood how he was proposing to make them pay for the wall.

At $50 mil, it does sound rather dumb to try to make them 'pay' by reducing the aid they get.