Is it possible to solve the exploration problem in MMOs?

[ro9ue]

My thinking is, that at some point in the future AI will be ablo to randomly create intersting content to keep up with "hungry" explorers. That way entire zones could be released on a weekly or monthly basis.
Another solution could be to utilize the players themselves, release an editor and simply add a "sandbox" option to the game where players can play player-created content.

I hope for the day. Imagine as a developer you wouldn't even know what to expect in your own game!

[Kathandira]

Watching it online and actually experiencing it for yourself feels completely different.

Sure, I understand the difference in immersion between observing, and controlling.

[Nihilan]

Skyrim did fairly well at capturing the "Holy Shit!" aspect of exploration. You see this little cave youve passed my several times before without entering and never think about what is inside.

Couple days later the Radiant system sends you into that little useless cave to return some villagers lost kitten or some shit. Then bam, youre in some collosal underground dead city complete with artificial sun hanging from the top of the cavern far, far overhead. Its been under your feet this whole time and you never had a clue. Its not even important to the story, its just there for explorers to find.

Exploration in MMOs though comes down to a return on investment question. How much time and effort should a developer be bothered to commit to something that most people will only ever see once then never have a reason to return to? Would that money be better spent on more repeatable/accessible content?

[Poppincaps]

Only way I could see it happening is if you created an AI system for each NPC that had them act out their daily lives based on personality traits. This would result in some NPCs changing the zone either through events or conflict.

Much like how in the real world, you can go to New York City for a week and traverse the entire city and then go back the next year and have a different experience. Because new restaurants may pop up, new events may be held, and you may even have a different experience with the inhabitants of the city than you did the first time.

Doing this right now is impossible though. It would require far too much processing power. Imagine the Nemesis system from Shadow of Mordor except on a MUCH larger scale.

[Nihilan]

The problem with procedurally generated content is that its very hard to do well and is only ever going to be as successful as the developer is willing to make it. Every scrap of art, every model, every texture, every cell, every sound, every plot point, every line of dialog, every line of code, everything has to be made in advance with the absolute intent to blend seemlessly into your world gen scripting. It cannot be half-assed like so many "endless exploration" games are these days (*cough* NMS *cough*).

To truly get a good variance of possible terrains, buildings, quests, etc, you need some creative people doing some very serious forward planning. You also need some very, very good code. You need to balance having an absolutely gigantic number of possible procedural outcomes (exploration events) alongside the risk of having the those outcomes feel bland and lifeless. It 110% comes down to planning, creativity, and skill on the part of the devs.

And this is just for making a good single player game. Making the above work in an MMO will bring a whole slew of additional challenges.

[Deleted]

I wonder how an MMO would work if after you have created your character and jump in the game they will state "Go explore, there are several quest and epic quest chains spread out through the world.

So you dont get a quest when you start but you run around to explore and might find an NPC in a cave or in a house that might start some kind of legendary quest chan with a boss or whatever in the end.

If you get to max lvl or if you just lvl by getting items and get to "end game" you do the normal dungeons / raids but might have to find the NPC to be able to get in to the raid, dunno. Might be fun or just annoying.

[Kathandira]

I wonder how an MMO would work if after you have created your character and jump in the game they will state "Go explore, there are several quest and epic quest chains spread out through the world.

So you dont get a quest when you start but you run around to explore and might find an NPC in a cave or in a house that might start some kind of legendary quest chan with a boss or whatever in the end.

If you get to max lvl or if you just lvl by getting items and get to "end game" you do the normal dungeons / raids but might have to find the NPC to be able to get in to the raid, dunno. Might be fun or just annoying.

That is almost like ESO, not quite though. ESO does hold your hand to offer you quests. But there are so many quests that are just out in the world which require you to explore to find.

[PACOX]

I'm not sure what you mean OP. Maybe you mean GW2 but it's not at the scale/frequency you would like?

[ro9ue]

I'm not sure what you mean OP. Maybe you mean GW2 but it's not at the scale/frequency you would like?

Well I'm starting to agree with most of the people here telling me there is essentially no reasonable fix to this. But what I do like about GW2 is the fact I can wander around into a zone and random events are occurring.

I would like to see future MMOs expand that system a bit. So there are random events, and those events have impacts on the state of the zone. And each subsequent event participates in an overall meta state.

An example would be:

There are orcs and elves in a zone. Events occur where you can help elves or orcs. Maybe one single event just buffs the elves in that zone for a few days. Then the zone meta can be further elven victories push back most of the major orc villages to just smaller camps. The zone then maybe becomes more "naturey". Further pushing in that direction moves the bar that way, but if people decide to help the orcs instead, it would move the zone to a more orcish feel. Cutting down trees, machines, etc.

As a game developer I would have like 3 metas lined up for each possible outcome. Like a tree.

State 1 can end in A or B.

If A, State 2 can end in C or D.
If B, State 2 can end in E or F.

Obviously you would have to design out like 2-3 states. But overall you aren't rebuilding the zone, you are adding/subtracting a few structures and reskinning some parts.


So a GW2 event style system, that would play into a larger WoW Throne of Thunder, AQ like system that would have larger effects.

The zones would be more dynamic, so it would just be if you see the zone that's it. You can come back later and a zone might be laid out a bit different with some new stuff going on.

Plus I think the addition of climate/weather effects can always add a fresh feel. Imagine if Winterspring in WoW was just like Azshara/Felwood, and then all 3 would change to winter every 3 months. Stay that way, and then go back to the original state.

[Tommy T]

The best exploration I've ever experienced was probably in Oblivion / Skyrim.

The sheer amount of dungeons and caves to explorer and the little stories in each one. I remember one in Oblivion, where you follow the progress of a Necromancer who's trying to ascend into a Lich. You follow his journals and navigate through the cave while avoiding traps and such. At the end, there's an epic fight and you loot some valuable gear.

Stuff like that is brilliant. I love finding the little subplots in open world games.

Lord of the Rings Online did exploration pretty well. As did ESO.
WoW, not so much.

[Cæli]

Exploration might be the absolutely most exciting thing for me and most other "explorer" types under Bartle's system.

The unfortunate downside to this is that, after something is explored, the magic dies with it. There are some other interesting attributes to an explored zone like returning to an old zone as a "coming home" feeling, and being able to navigate better, but they are undoubtedly less powerful conditions than the original "unexplored" state.

Is it possible at all for MMO developers to counter this other than just indefinitely expanding their games by continuously adding new explorable areas?


There are certainly some players that don't care about exploration, so clearly I'm not asking for your opinions here, you don't care about this, but for everyone else who considers zone exploration one of the main draws of a new game or expansion - what do you think are new and interesting ways to solve this problem?

That coming home feeling is enhanced if you come back after completing the game. Sure you already know the zone, but the feel is awesome. I think at some point there is nothing to do more. A game have to have an end. If you explore and re explore a zone you love, just switch game, and play an equally good game that will make you feel equally good. And when you want to re play the game, just log in and chill in it as long as you like. There is no problem to solve.

[Ech0544]

I liked the way SW:G did it, (tie it into questing) mission terminals in all citys/ towns, get a party together, pick a direction, everyone takes a mission in that direction of similar distance, go there and smack on the nest that spawned at mission location until enemys come out (that has set number of max enemys it can spawn), more you hit the nest, the quicker the enemies spawn, go to next one etc, once done all back to town to replace leaving members and off you go again.

Wow dailies/ levelling would be more enjoyable if I could just get a group of people pick a random or favourite or new zone and off you go, gotten bored of the scenery? Pick a different zone or a different direction, it would help spread the player base out over whole zones instead of cramming into certain quest areas, though maybe its different? Havent played since Cata.

[May90]

I wonder how an MMO would work if after you have created your character and jump in the game they will state "Go explore, there are several quest and epic quest chains spread out through the world.

So you dont get a quest when you start but you run around to explore and might find an NPC in a cave or in a house that might start some kind of legendary quest chan with a boss or whatever in the end.

If you get to max lvl or if you just lvl by getting items and get to "end game" you do the normal dungeons / raids but might have to find the NPC to be able to get in to the raid, dunno. Might be fun or just annoying.

I personally think that instances are one of the most anti-MMO elements in MMOs. When people queue up for something and end up in a unique instance with 5, 10, 25, 40 or however many people, isolated from the rest of the world, then how can it be reasonably called an MMO?

I think, rather than instanced dungeons, raids and such, there should just be areas with very powerful mobs and bosses, which people can randomly enter or leave, without any queuing or mandatory grouping. So, for example, you are questing, running by, say, the entrance to the cave with a strong wolf pack in it and decide to check it out - upon entering, you see a few players fighting the pack and join them. When you've killed the pack leader, based on your contribution or something else, you get some items off its corpse.

There won't be separation between the "endgame" and the rest of the game, everything would be experienced in the same environment. And exploration would indeed be rewarding, as, first, it will be the only way to find bosses dropping good gear, and second, it can be experienced without any haste, without cancerous things like "dailies", without pressure from the guild requiring you to do regular runs, etc. - you would just live in the world with millions of players, interacting with each in some way, and, if you so desire, you can join a guild, but you get access to the whole world without any restrictions, such as required item level or character level.

This is what Ultima Online was like, and this is what I would like to see more MMOs be like. As it is, very few MMOs I can actually call MMOs, and WoW, SWTOR and others definitely don't belong in that category, with their instances, restrictions and countless mechanisms dividing people into small groups, away from the open world.

[Firefall]

Legion has expanded the length of time it's taken to feel like I've explored at least considerably because of world quests. I find new things as I play, and am only recently starting to feel like the zones are heavily traveled ground.

But I don't think there's an easy solution to this.

Maybe faction warfare? Like a world with a lot of towns/settlement, that dynamically change and evolve based on virtual politics. It could work for a game based in a massive city, at least.

[marzix]

This was Everquest. I'd LOVE to have a new, graphically updated original Everquest where the quests are found in the game as you explore. It took years for people to figure out some quests from the original game. I always liked going to a zone, with my macro "Ikky Monk puller extraordinaire LFG". Once going there for a few times, learning some of the other farmers there, I'd get groups pretty easy. Not having DPS meters, needing time to med, needing to CC or split mobs. Geez, splitting mobs was such an art that games today just don't have, I really miss it. Karnor's castle and City of Mist were some fun as hell zones. I sometimes would log on and just run somewhere to some zone just to go there for no reason. I remember the first time as an Iksar getting on the boat and hoping I am not seen while feigning death out in the Overthere (was that the zone) with the evil Dark Elves. Sailing thru the Deep to I think Oasis of Marr and feign deathing my way around everywhere whenever I saw conning anything that moved. I could go on and on about my early experiences in EQ, and I haven't played it a ton since WoW came out. The memories like that in WoW were pretty common in Vanilla and BC, but not nearly as often now. Usually it's when I went to Netharion's Lair the first time or did the Highmountain quest involving Ebonysius SP?

Grinding mobs with groups of friends or people that may become friends and getting a reputation based on how well I played, socialized, knew about things was very very satisfying. It was such a laid back time and way to play the game.

***The biggest downfall to Everquest was the toll death took on you. If it had a limited hearthstone mechanic (only in a friendly town, re-bind once every 7 days or something and you can only 'hearth' when you have been offline for at least 8 hours) and the death thing wasn't a night ruining experience (dying as an iksar in Oasis of Marr or Lower Guk is NOT fun when you reload next to your guildmaster in Cabilis).

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I can't stand pvp either, I don't get it. There are monsters or beings or LEGIONS UPON LEGIONS of demons trying to destroy the ENTIRE world and the factions can't figure out a way to cooperate at this point...

Why can't my Tauren be peaceful with Night Elves, I could maybe understand humans or dwarves not liking a giant Tauren, but Tauren and Night Elves always got along from what I could tell until they joined the Horde (who when they did were really just trying to make a place for themselves, not destroy everything). WoW probably could have been really fun if they didn't have Horde vs Alliance and was more about what quests and mobs you killed out in the world dictating it. Thrall was able to prove his worth to not be killed on sight by some humans and even had some human friends. There are so many mixed factions out there like the Earthen Ring, Cenarion Circle, and Guardians of Hyjal and if the Highmountain Tribe(Tauren) and Argent Crusade (mostly humans) can be friendly with orcs, undead, etc, I just don't understand it.

My character should be at least be able to be non-kos to all the player factions with all the good deads I have done. It makes more sense that the Night Elves would be friendly with the Tauren than Tauren with the Undead.

[Flaks]

I don't know man but somehow Bethesda gets it right. I've put in a good 600 hours into the game but every time I turn it on it's just a sense of wonder. It almost makes me want to try ESO but I imagine it's the multiplayer part if MMO that drives out that sense of wonder pretty quickly.

[Halicia]

I don't know man but somehow Bethesda gets it right. I've put in a good 600 hours into the game but every time I turn it on it's just a sense of wonder. It almost makes me want to try ESO but I imagine it's the multiplayer part if MMO that drives out that sense of wonder pretty quickly.

The issue is adapting that design to a Multiplayer game. In my esperience all it takes is one "hey guys, come to 45,126... its !@#$ing awesome and will blow your mind!" to completely innoculate you to the amazement you would have had by discovering it randomly on your own.

My adaptation would be something along the lines of "everyone has their own world to explore/expand", if you want to reduce the lackluster quality of total randomness, you can use a prefab tile system that fits randomly. (Legend of Mana comes to mind as a weird land-management concept that might be applicable if modified greatly).

Ravenloft comes to mind vaguely too, where you have these independant little isles that can get mashed up and splintered apart.

Endless exploration requires that not just the very edges of the world change, but occasionally the heartland needs to be disturbed and disrupted.

Multiplayer is the annoying part though, maybe a world is created by "merging" via guilds/friends the edges of the lands. Wars with rivals could be accomplished the same way.

All in all though, this would be a unique game unlike any MMO currently on the market... and might be better designed as a SP/MP lobbyish game with persistent aspects rather then something termed as an MMO.