Shame on you, Hearthstone community.

[Blueobelisk]

They never promise anything though.

They promised I'd have fun.

[Jester Joe]

They promised I'd have fun.

You're tearing me apart Lisa.

[Pantalaimon]

So if they happen to print Dr. Boom 2.0 we should wait ~2 years until it phases out?

You can't foresee everthing as Dev, but just waiting until a yearly(!) cycle fixes everything for you is not the right solution.

The purpose of standard is to prevent / slow down power creep and create space for new archetype, not the magical mark that fixes balance issues for you.

Please, say we use your example of a Dr. Boom 2.0 Blizzard could intentionally create a flexible/hard counter for that same powerful card in order to place tools in the hands of the players to play against said powerful cards instead of simply demanding nerfs non-stop.

Remember that little comment about the devs making mention when WotOGs was fresh, the one that said if N'Zoth & deathrattles became too powerful that they would end up printing a counter to it if it got out of hand? Now I don't think N'Zoth was out of hand considering plenty of other decks beat N'Zoth decks even now, but I find it too much of a coincidence that we got a 10 mana Kazakus potion that was a mass polymorph AoE 'board clear' the very next expansion. Even check youtube and you'll find shitloads of videos where 10 mana Kazakus potions were used for this exact purpose during control matches, to hard counter N'Zoth board swarms, among many other uses for the potion.

I still stand by my original point, that nerfs are no longer needed in most cases (barring things like Yogg) because the devs don't even need to wait the full rotation cycle, they will just release counters that punish the last expansion's powerhouse cards/combos. Problem solved. This also makes players have to actually think by intentionally including counter cards/archtypes to beat other cards/archtypes (ie being 'forced' to change the way they play to win instead of simply complaining for nerfs in order to beat troublesome decks/archtypes).

Intentional counter deck building should always be the way to beat the previous hard to beat decks/plays, not abstaining from thought during games & instead whining in order to sleeper-cell-headshot the play/deck out of meta without having to play the game. That's a lazy and very uncreative tcg route to go about it. Nerfs & bans in general are lazy approaches, seeing as how counter plays help center the game on using released cards to change up the meta with each new set. Make the game be more about what cards you use & how you use them, instead of raising hell to alter the cards with every single strong deck that rears its head in each meta.


- - - Updated - - -

Don't argue balance with the same 4-5 guys on this forum. They just don't get it. Blizzard put together a team of devs to put out a casual quick-cash payout game. That is all. The so called "pros" they hired are terrible. The devs are terrible as well. Why is it an ESL game? It's entertaining to watch what RNG and top decking does to people. That's all. It is seriously funny to watch tournaments. You have the same chances of getting on Wheel of Fortune as you do HS tournaments.

Sounds like you were over Hearthstone long ago. This sounds like the exact same Blizzard bashing posts that are found en mass in the WoW forums on this site. If you bash the game and community so much why even continue to post in forums related to the game? Don't be the forum version of that guy in trade who spends about as much time insulting the game as they do actually doing anything in the content.
Like posters say to those who complain about WoW almost non-stop, if you don't like the game just stop playing it & better spend your turn on entertainment that does suit whatever your current interests are. No point in sticking around the fan sites of games you are no longer a fan of. Seems rather counterproductive.

[Kithelle]

Apparently, the Hearthstone devs are afraid to show their faces in developer insight videos for fear of being attacked by the toxic online community.


http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/2131-y...igner-insights

Really makes you want to take a long, hard look at yourself.

Not me though, I'm great and can do no wrong.

Isn't this on them? Every game has its toxic side of the community and it doesn't stop other devs from showing their faces...even in games I've played where the toxicity is justified.

[Kralljin]

Please, say we use your example of a Dr. Boom 2.0 Blizzard could intentionally create a flexible/hard counter for that same powerful card in order to place tools in the hands of the players to play against said powerful cards instead of simply demanding nerfs non-stop.

Too bad Blizzard is always late in releasing cards to counter currently overpowered cards.

Eater of Secrets would've been a great card to counter Secret Pally, yet came out when the deck was wrecked by the standard cycle.

Blizzard prints cards months before their release, hence Priest received rather shitty cards in Karazhan expansion.

So if Expansion X has some super Overpowered card, you might have to wait ~9 months until the "counter card" is actually released.

Remember that little comment about the devs making mention when WotOGs was fresh, the one that said if N'Zoth & deathrattles became too powerful that they would end up printing a counter to it if it got out of hand? Now I don't think N'Zoth was out of hand considering plenty of other decks beat N'Zoth decks even now, but I find it too much of a coincidence that we got a 10 mana Kazakus potion that was a mass polymorph AoE 'board clear' the very next expansion.
Even check youtube and you'll find shitloads of videos where 10 mana Kazakus potions were used for this exact purpose during control matches, to hard counter N'Zoth board swarms, among many other uses for the potion.

Kinda dumb that Kazakus is only accessible to Priest / Mage / Warlock and two of the these classes have ways to deal with a giant board.

Also, Mean streets of Gadgetzan had how many neutral Deathrattle cards? 4? 5? Probably the only Neutral Deathrattle card among those that sees play is mistress of mixtures.

This also makes players have to actually think by intentionally including counter cards/archtypes to beat other cards/archtypes (ie being 'forced' to change the way they play to win instead of simply complaining for nerfs in order to beat troublesome decks/archtypes).

Still waiting for cards to counter aggro without dedicating half of my deck to it.

Nerfs & bans in general are lazy approaches, seeing as how counter plays help center the game on using released cards to change up the meta with each new set.

Waiting until a yearly cycle fixes things for you is an even lazier one.

You can't counter certain cards if these counter simply do not exist and if they exist, then they are simply thrown into every deck, BGH being the prime example.

For example, if i wanted to counter freeze mage (Or any Ice block related deck) i throw in Eater of Secrets as tech choice, bad card against a lot of other decks, however my winrate against Mage Decks will increase due that choice, i'm *slightly* worse against other classes but that might be a fair price to me.

Against the Aggro archetype, i need to design my whole deck around countering aggro, no tech choice anymore, i need to dedicate so many cards to counter them at a consistent rate.

This sounds like the exact same Blizzard bashing posts that are found en mass in the WoW forums on this site.

Well, if i want to point out the issue Blizzards current Balance approach i have to cite examples.

The fact that a card like Dr. Boom has been a massive failure from a balance perspective is by no means a secret.

If you bash the game and community so much why even continue to post in forums related to the game? Don't be the forum version of that guy in trade who spends about as much time insulting the game as they do actually doing anything in the content.

Or Perhaps stop being the guy that tells other people what to do in an attempt to claim the moral highground.

If you think my criticism is pointless bashing, feel free to ignore my posts, i do not care.

[Bapestar]

Don't argue balance with the same 4-5 guys on this forum. They just don't get it. Blizzard put together a team of devs to put out a casual quick-cash payout game. That is all. The so called "pros" they hired are terrible. The devs are terrible as well. Why is it an ESL game? It's entertaining to watch what RNG and top decking does to people. That's all. It is seriously funny to watch tournaments. You have the same chances of getting on Wheel of Fortune as you do HS tournaments.

So true. I love HS, but anyone with a brain will agree with this.

[Pantalaimon]

[Snip]

Last part wasn't directed at you. Perhaps you should read the names of the people I am quoting before responding. I was merely responding to the local mmoc Hearthstone poster who hates the game so much he can't stay away from the forums of the game that he says is so bad.

As much as it is an unpopular opinion, overpowered cards are not meant to be responded to with the new counter cards right away. In Yu-Gi-Oh Chaos Control would be that game's equivalent of a 'tier one deck' & was in that position for a couple of years or more in one variant or another. Now I don't think decks should reign that long, but this is a game and no card should be immediately hard countered right after its release. If that was how this card game worked then those countered cards had no point in being released anyway if you were going to immediately counter it without it having any lime light. I don't care if people shit a brick because their favorite decks can't beat an "overpowered" card or deck for a few months. That's the rocks in card games, there needs to be a winner or top guy for a period of time before counters get released. In the end the meta always will change anyway.

See the funny thing about counters is that they do exist & have existed for most decks. People just complain that said counters cost them their precious consistent win ratios against other archtypes that many players simply didn't include them in their decks & just took the losses against the minority deck(s) they could have countered with tech choices. You mentioned secret pally as one example, do you know how many times I took that annoying deck out by *gasp* include 1-2 more single hard target removal spells? Polymorph didn't give a crap about an avenged 10/7 Mysterious Challenger on the board. People simply chose not to run choices like that at the time because they automatically allowed the rest of the community to decide what was & wasn't a valid choice for their decks. Polymorph is too slow in this meta etc, etc. Doesn't mean the counter wasn't there.

Other decks had more obvious counters to them. The raging worgen complaints? LAWL, learn to actually play the game to bait out Brawl & execute with board pressure then drop your defender of argus for a free win. One of the common complaints to that? Defender of Argus was yet another 'bad' card in the meta against other decks, so generally people didn't include it. Counter cards are meant to tank win ratios against other decks to some degree, otherwise if the counter tech cards are too good they become ccg staples, and staples are bad for games as they make cookie cutter decks even more of an unoriginal reality.

In the end I can't help, but feel players simply don't want to put much intentional thought into deck building. They simply want to maintain high win ratios across the board against everything with their one trick pony decks. And if that doesn't work then they demand nerfs that create their subjective vision for the game that creates a gaming environment that allows their decks to thrive, while making decks they don't prefer obsolete.

[Kralljin]

If that was how this card game worked then those countered cards had no point in being released anyway if you were going to immediately counter it without it having any lime light. I don't care if people shit a brick because their favorite decks can't beat an "overpowered" card or deck for a few months. That's the rocks in card games, there needs to be a winner or top guy for a period of time before counters get released. In the end the meta always will change anyway.

Enlighten me how do you hardcounter extremely overpowered 1 drop Card without breaking the power level curve.

Because it is first and foremost Cards like Tunnel Trogg and Small time Bucaneer that turn Aggro decks into those Power houses.

See the funny thing about counters is that they do exist & have existed for most decks. People just complain that said counters cost them their precious consistent win ratios against other archtypes that many players simply didn't include them in their decks & just took the losses against the minority deck(s) they could have countered with tech choices.

Again, point me out how i can counter aggro decks without dedicating my half deck to it.

You mentioned secret pally as one example, do you know how many times I took that annoying deck out by *gasp* include 1-2 more single hard target removal spells? Polymorph didn't give a crap about an avenged 10/7 Mysterious Challenger on the board. People simply chose not to run choices like that at the time because they automatically allowed the rest of the community to decide what was & wasn't a valid choice for their decks. Polymorph is too slow in this meta etc, etc. Doesn't mean the counter wasn't there.

I think you're failing on the point that at least pro's would most certainly try to find counters to the most powerful deck at the time.

All things aside, Mysterious Challenger wasn't the sole reason the deck worked.

Cards like Shielded Mini Bot and Muster for Battle allowed the Secret Pally to dominate the board, with then paved the way for their Mysterious Challenger, Dr.Boom and Tirion.

For those strong late game drops (Mainly Dr. Boom) most people just ran BGH, which countered your 10/7 Mysterious Challenger also.

The raging worgen complaints? LAWL, learn to actually play the game to bait out Brawl & execute with board pressure then drop your defender of argus for a free win.

Blizzard dislikes OTK Decks, hence Combo Druid and Patron got nerfed.

One of the common complaints to that? Defender of Argus was yet another 'bad' card in the meta against other decks, so generally people didn't include it. Counter cards are meant to tank win ratios against other decks to some degree, otherwise if the counter tech cards are too good they become ccg staples, and staples are bad for games as they make cookie cutter decks even more of an unoriginal reality.

Problem is, Defender of Argus is not the magical Counter against OTK Warrior.

In some situations? Yes, thing is, for a Tech Card, Defender has actually quite some requirements to actually fulfill his Tech choice.

First off, you need two Minions on the board, not that easy already against a deck that wants to keep your side of the board as clean as possible, next they actually need decent healthpools because Warrior might have Fiery War Axe in his hand.

For a Tech choice, this is way too unreliable.

In the end I can't help, but feel players simply don't want to put much intentional thought into deck building. They simply want to maintain high win ratios across the board against everything with their one trick pony decks. And if that doesn't work then they demand nerfs that create their subjective vision for the game that creates a gaming environment that allows their decks to thrive, while making decks they don't prefer obsolete.

Again, show me those cards that counter Aggro without dedicating half of my deck to it.

Countering Aggro is no *tech* choice, it's a Deck archetype on it's own.

[Faltemer]

Again, show me those cards that counter Aggro without dedicating half of my deck to it.

Countering Aggro is no *tech* choice, it's a Deck archetype on it's own.

Any Reno deck can be teched however much you want to counter whatever you want, that’s why they are so strong right now. It simply depends on what you are facing, then you pick the best cards to fill those spots. Renolock for instance only has what I consider 7 core cards: Reno, Kaz, Mountain, Twilight, Twisting, Siphon, and Brann. Now almost every RenoLock deck has cards like hellfire, rag, emp, etc. But if you were heavily facing aggro you could cut any of the 23 that doesn’t adequately combat them. On the flip side if the meta suddenly shifted to heavy late game you could throw in all the strong stuff that suits that meta better.

Even stuff like Jade druid can be shifted to have more early game material, although that core is quite a bit bigger. It’s not particularly hard to just throw in a bunch of good early game drops vs aggro into a renolock core and do very well against that matchup. Countering a deck is always a tradeoff, and considering most decks already have 9-10 cards no matter what for the early turns pushing that up a bit isnt that big of a difference, no deck morphs into something else by countering aggro. Because basically every deck is tied to not that many actual cards, except for aggro because they dont go for a curve at all.

[Kralljin]

Any Reno deck can be teched however much you want to counter whatever you want, that’s why they are so strong right now.

Reno decks are so strong right now because they released Kazakus, which is a more flexible version of Reno.

I strongly doubt that those Highlander Decks will be as strong as they are now once Reno rotates.

Multiple Tech choices aren't nearly as punishing to them as to other decks because consistency has never been a strong point of Reno Decks.

Second, very often their win condition is centered around a few cards, be it Kazakus + Brann or Jaraxxus, relying on few cards for your win condition against almost any Match non Aggro Match up obviously frees up a lot of space to counter Aggro.

Even stuff like Jade druid can be shifted to have more early game material, although that core is quite a bit bigger. It’s not particularly hard to just throw in a bunch of good early game drops vs aggro into a renolock core and do very well against that matchup.

If Jade Druid had somehow success against Aggro, i think it would be a Tier 1 without a second thought.

Because thanks to Jade Idol this deck cannot lose Late Game unless you manage to get a big tempo swing or OTK.

[Faltemer]

Second, very often their win condition is centered around a few cards, be it Kazakus + Brann or Jaraxxus, relying on few cards for your win condition against almost any Match non Aggro Match up obviously frees up a lot of space to counter Aggro.

If Jade Druid had somehow success against Aggro, i think it would be a Tier 1 without a second thought.

Because thanks to Jade Idol this deck cannot lose Late Game unless you manage to get a big tempo swing or OTK.

Most decks are built around very few cards to win. Dragon priest is basically Drac Ops priest, because without it, it would lose to most decks. I agree Reno is more flexible then most, although I dont think by much. Ramp/Combo druid is only truly centered around 9 cards by my count and thats even giving a few that could possibly be cut.

Jade druid is similar because of how varied you can build it. You could easily make a jade druid deck that did well early vs aggro, but that would likely require you to cut a lot of the stuff that mde is super strong vs control decks (Auctioneer, maybe nourishes, maybe the 4 mana jades). But thats the catch, which every mid-late game deck faces. Either build to last long, or build to hold. Most people go for a middle ground. The reason the typical jade decks cant do well vs aggro is because they put in so much draw, ramp, and jade stuff in. There was ideas being thrown around for a jade deck with only 1 jade idol in it and no other jade cards. Quickly ramp, quickly flip through your deck then drop an auctioneer and go crazy. Both of these decks are based around so many late game choices they fell early.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/716432-jade-aggro Thats a quickly thrown together version if you are heavily facing aggro of jade druid. It would suffer heavily in control matchups, but if you want to counter a whole decktype thats typically what has to occur.

And just a note, while aggro is IMO in its second worst ever state in terms of brokeness, Reno decks are also insanely strong so there is a sort of impasse. Im not super thrilled about the meta, but if I really wanted to counter one or the other most decks should be capable of it.

[HisDudeness]

Last part wasn't directed at you. Perhaps you should read the names of the people I am quoting before responding. I was merely responding to the local mmoc Hearthstone poster who hates the game so much he can't stay away from the forums of the game that he says is so bad.

As much as it is an unpopular opinion, overpowered cards are not meant to be responded to with the new counter cards right away. In Yu-Gi-Oh Chaos Control would be that game's equivalent of a 'tier one deck' & was in that position for a couple of years or more in one variant or another. Now I don't think decks should reign that long, but this is a game and no card should be immediately hard countered right after its release. If that was how this card game worked then those countered cards had no point in being released anyway if you were going to immediately counter it without it having any lime light. I don't care if people shit a brick because their favorite decks can't beat an "overpowered" card or deck for a few months. That's the rocks in card games, there needs to be a winner or top guy for a period of time before counters get released. In the end the meta always will change anyway.

See the funny thing about counters is that they do exist & have existed for most decks. People just complain that said counters cost them their precious consistent win ratios against other archtypes that many players simply didn't include them in their decks & just took the losses against the minority deck(s) they could have countered with tech choices. You mentioned secret pally as one example, do you know how many times I took that annoying deck out by *gasp* include 1-2 more single hard target removal spells? Polymorph didn't give a crap about an avenged 10/7 Mysterious Challenger on the board. People simply chose not to run choices like that at the time because they automatically allowed the rest of the community to decide what was & wasn't a valid choice for their decks. Polymorph is too slow in this meta etc, etc. Doesn't mean the counter wasn't there.

Other decks had more obvious counters to them. The raging worgen complaints? LAWL, learn to actually play the game to bait out Brawl & execute with board pressure then drop your defender of argus for a free win. One of the common complaints to that? Defender of Argus was yet another 'bad' card in the meta against other decks, so generally people didn't include it. Counter cards are meant to tank win ratios against other decks to some degree, otherwise if the counter tech cards are too good they become ccg staples, and staples are bad for games as they make cookie cutter decks even more of an unoriginal reality.

In the end I can't help, but feel players simply don't want to put much intentional thought into deck building. They simply want to maintain high win ratios across the board against everything with their one trick pony decks. And if that doesn't work then they demand nerfs that create their subjective vision for the game that creates a gaming environment that allows their decks to thrive, while making decks they don't prefer obsolete.

At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone on this forum is now dumber for having read to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Don't post spam/memes

[Kralljin]

Ramp/Combo druid is only truly centered around 9 cards by my count and thats even giving a few that could possibly be cut.

9 Cards (even if you discount a few) is still a lot, i mean that's 1/3 of your deck, current Reno Decks need as said above, 1-2 Cards as actual Win Condition.

Jade druid is similar because of how varied you can build it. You could easily make a jade druid deck that did well early vs aggro, but that would likely require you to cut a lot of the stuff that mde is super strong vs control decks (Auctioneer, maybe nourishes, maybe the 4 mana jades). But thats the catch, which every mid-late game deck faces. Either build to last long, or build to hold. Most people go for a middle ground. The reason the typical jade decks cant do well vs aggro is because they put in so much draw, ramp, and jade stuff in. There was ideas being thrown around for a jade deck with only 1 jade idol in it and no other jade cards. Quickly ramp, quickly flip through your deck then drop an auctioneer and go crazy. Both of these decks are based around so many late game choices they fell early.

I think the main reason why Druid has trouble countering Aggro is the same as Shaman had before TGT / LoE, lack of decent 1-3 Drops, instead of these you throw in Stuff like Doomsayer which is rarely useful against Control decks.

Druid could easily do the same shit that Midrange (Jade) Shaman is doing right now, but they lack cards like Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem.

The best counter against Aggro decks is very often just doing the same shit as them, which is sad.

And just a note, while aggro is IMO in its second worst ever state in terms of brokeness, Reno decks are also insanely strong so there is a sort of impasse. Im not super thrilled about the meta, but if I really wanted to counter one or the other most decks should be capable of it.

The thing here is, you know that Highlander Decks are probably done once Reno rotates out, that is if they not print new highlander cards, which is unlikely given the point of standard is to create new archetypes.

Maybe Highlander Priest will still see some play, but Highlander Warlock is probably dead, unless there are some super powerful healing cards, they won't be able to life tap that recklessly without falling victim to any kind of damage combo.

Aggro however, constantly receives new cards, insane Cards.
Did we need a Powerful neutral 1 Drop that synergizes with Patches? This is what bothers me, the fact that those cards that turn Aggro into those extremely efficient Ladder decks rarely receive any nerf.

Thanks to Small Time Bucaneer, Aggro Shaman might survive the removal of Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem.

[Faltemer]

I think the main reason why Druid has trouble countering Aggro is the same as Shaman had before TGT / LoE, lack of decent 1-3 Drops, instead of these you throw in Stuff like Doomsayer which is rarely useful against Control decks.

Druid could easily do the same shit that Midrange (Jade) Shaman is doing right now, but they lack cards like Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem.

The best counter against Aggro decks is very often just doing the same shit as them, which is sad.

Mid range shaman really isnt a thing. The pirate shaman is pretty much just like aggro warrior (and beats aggro warrior) just a slight bit slower on average but with way more burst if needed. And even with 10 cards I was able to cobble together a list that beats aggro a super high percentage. if you build it properly to account for other decks I dont think it would be a bad deck. It wouldnt be like the top tier decks but I could see it sitting at 55-60% Win ratio.

The thing here is, you know that Highlander Decks are probably done once Reno rotates out, that is if they not print new highlander cards, which is unlikely given the point of standard is to create new archetypes.

Maybe Highlander Priest will still see some play, but Highlander Warlock is probably dead, unless there are some super powerful healing cards, they won't be able to life tap that recklessly without falling victim to any kind of damage combo.

I think this is a unique enough deck type that they will constantly try and make it somewhat of a viable choice. Because the diea is simply 30 unqiue cards. If reno goes away and they add somethig to get armor or crazy value the deck will just build knowing you dont have Reno. (Although I would actually really love if Reno was moved to the vanilla set, as it is a card that coudl always be interesting) If they dont add anything, I dont think RenoLock could survive although mage and priest might, mage has ice block and other spells to keep itself afloat, although if they add nothing truly of value I doubt any of the highlander decks are top tier.

Aggro however, constantly receives new cards, insane Cards.

Did we need a Powerful neutral 1 Drop that synergizes with Patches? This is what bothers me, the fact that those cards that turn Aggro into those extremely efficient Ladder decks rarely receive any nerf.

Thanks to Small Time Bucaneer, Aggro Shaman might survive the removal of Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem.

Aggro sees so much play because it climbs so well. Currently it has a good win ratio to go along with quick games. But if all patches decks had a 5% less chance to win then their current number, they would still see a ton of play because a lot of peope would rather play 10 games then 2 when they get the chance.

The biggest problem with Patches atm is there is no clear way to nerf it, without it becoming useless. The stats are as low as they can go. The only solution I could think of was to disallow it from attacking minions. A lot of the times patches manages to help with a weapon trade up for free and let a bucaneer or something hit you several times. Taking that away might fix it?

Honestly I think trog>totem is still scarier then any pirate opening. I mean that is a turn 2 5/7. I think shaman will definitely fall off some come the next expac unless they add other crazy cards.

[Pantalaimon]

Snip

Too unreliable? I ran it in one of my rogue decks when Raging Worgen was a thing & last to maybe one Raging Worgen deck, and that was because they drew faster & better than me. Like I said, if you actually had a deck that pressured them, baiting out execute, brawl, and FWA, it was very simple to have taunts up to prevent the loss. Having a shadowcaster, or more reliably just a second argus (which is what I ran since the argus helped with more than just a rarely seen otk deck) made it even easier to not lose to face damage.

Other people have already posted that you really don't need to commit half of your deck to counter aggro so I won't really address that.

Here is how tech is meant to work. It provides you with a higher chance of drawing cards that result in moderate to high swing plays against a deck, in this discussion it is aggro. When I say that counter cards counter aggro cards/decks it isn't meant to imply that they are supposed to be godly I-win-the-game counters right upon playing it. Just because you play a deck with aggro counters and it still loses to an aggro deck it doesn't necessarily mean the counters didn't work. Chances are more likely that the aggro opponent was playing Curvestone better than you with their draws, or that you didn't draw your counters soon enough to make enough of an impact or that you didn't draw many of your counters.

What is bad about the most reliable counters being a deck archtype on its own? Do we really want every deck to be like Reno Lock, where it can counter aggro, midrange, control, and combo? Personally I think that would lead to very frustrating gameplay where the problem of your opponent drawing the perfect answers to your plays would happen much more often. I'm fine with the highest aggro counters being their own deck archetypes. That is a ccg working as intended.

[Kralljin]

Other people have already posted that you really don't need to commit half of your deck to counter aggro so I won't really address that.

If you ignore Reno decks, you do.

And Reno Decks can do it since, as said above, do not rely on consistency or have to compensate certain cards for not having a duplicate of another.

Here is how tech is meant to work. It provides you with a higher chance of drawing cards that result in moderate to high swing plays against a deck, in this discussion it is aggro.

Problem with sole Tech cards against aggro is that they are still less reliable than other Tech choices against other archetypes, due the fact that Aggro seeks to finish you as soon as possible, hence you draw far less cards.

It's kinda the problem with techs against aggro, you put in too few, the effect is hardly there because of the limited draw and you lose value on Control match ups, you put in too many, your deck may become too focused on countering aggro.

[Splenda]

If you promise A and B and you don't deliver on A and B, you'll get harassed. It's one of the things blizzard did and they paid the price. Is it justified? No. Did they bring it upon themselves? Yes.

I think it's quite unfair to pin bad behavior on anyone other than the people exhibiting said bad behavior.

[BenBos]

That is what you get when you make a bad game for copycat morons.

I don't see other developpers of great card games in the boardgame scene have this kind of agression.

But then these games at least have decent mechanics where ... skill primes luck 95% of the time...

In HS it is 5% skill and 95% luck and complete and utter randomness. No wonder people get frustrated.

[Nikkaszal]

That is what you get when you make a bad game for copycat morons.

I don't see other developpers of great card games in the boardgame scene have this kind of agression.

But then these games at least have decent mechanics where ... skill primes luck 95% of the time...

In HS it is 5% skill and 95% luck and complete and utter randomness. No wonder people get frustrated.

Why are you still posting here?

[Pantalaimon]

That is what you get when you make a bad game for copycat morons.

I don't see other developpers of great card games in the boardgame scene have this kind of agression.

But then these games at least have decent mechanics where ... skill primes luck 95% of the time...

In HS it is 5% skill and 95% luck and complete and utter randomness. No wonder people get frustrated.

I feel like you are referencing net decking. If that is the case HS is far from the only game community that does that. Yu-Gi-Oh & MtG are also games for "copycat morons". In fact, any game where deck construction gives a player an advantage you will also see people copying successful decks. Welcome to the age of the internet where pretty much everyone is a "copycat moron".

You can't make a strong arguement for Hearthstone being the sole progenitor for all things bad in the card game scene. Pretty much all of flaws in Hearthstone exist in many of the other games as well, and existed before HS even came into existence. Scapegoating Hearthstone for flaws that aren't new to gaming is pretty much moot.