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  1. #1
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Demon Spikes 7.1.5

    Is it just me, or does the 7.1.5 version feel a bit meh?

    Full Disclosure: I play my VDH as an alt - my primary alt, but an alt. So I haven't followed the changes as closely as I do for my main.

    10% doesn't feel like much help on its own, so I guess it will be all about the mastery we stack to buff it? I compare it to SotR for my pally and it doesn't feel as substantial. Yeah I know it also helps parry, but that's still RNG rather than something you can count on. What am I missing here?

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  2. #2
    I'll take more consistent, smooth damage taken any day.

  3. #3
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Seems like Spike uptime will be more important vs. trash, where the RNG of parry will even out, than in boss fights?
    But I should be humble and listen to those of you who play this every day in high end content.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  4. #4
    Demon spikes atm is giving me 44% dmg redu, in 7.1.5 it will give me 34% dmg redu but that 10% we are missing was moved into passive damage reduction so its still the same amoubt of reduction.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Demon spikes atm is giving me 44% dmg redu, in 7.1.5 it will give me 34% dmg redu but that 10% we are missing was moved into passive damage reduction so its still the same amount of reduction.
    Not really, the passive is vs all not only phys, isn't it? Also DR in WoW was multiplicative (0.1*0.1 instead of 0.1+0.1).

  6. #6
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Demon spikes atm is giving me 44% dmg redu, in 7.1.5 it will give me 34% dmg redu but that 10% we are missing was moved into passive damage reduction so its still the same amoubt of reduction.
    That does make it sound a lot better.
    I'll probably be playing my DH more now that the pally is capped on AP traits, so I need to catch up.

    - - - Updated - - -

    So are we back to stacking mastery for spikes? I'd mostly gone Versa since the mastery nerf in 7.1 (or thereabouts).

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peacekeeper Benhir View Post
    So are we back to stacking mastery for spikes? I'd mostly gone Versa since the mastery nerf in 7.1 (or thereabouts).
    Probably haste+mast for semi-perma spikes with 4p bonus where you need to spend 50~ (reduced in 2p to 50 max) fury on cleaves for 3s reduction on your spikes.

  8. #8
    I would recommend you read Munkky's guide to the changes in 7.1.5, he seems to have put a lot of effort into analysing the effects of the changes on our stat priority:
    http://www.wowhead.com/news=258861/a...in-patch-7-1-5

    In essence, for survivability our general stat prio (as per Munkky's update) will be:
    (with tier) Mastery > Vers > Haste > Crit
    (without tier) Vers > Haste = Mastery > Crit

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Tinary View Post
    Demon spikes atm is giving me 44% dmg redu, in 7.1.5 it will give me 34% dmg redu but that 10% we are missing was moved into passive damage reduction so its still the same amoubt of reduction.
    It's a slight nerf to physical DR actually.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by daed4 View Post
    Probably haste+mast for semi-perma spikes with 4p bonus where you need to spend 50~ (reduced in 2p to 50 max) fury on cleaves for 3s reduction on your spikes.
    Haste will literally be trash the second you get your 4 piece bonus.
    Last edited by Tech614; 2017-01-08 at 12:12 AM.

  10. #10
    Our Magic resistance didn't get buffed, it didn't get touched at all. Demonic Wards gave 10% Magic Reduction on Live. In 7.1.5 its going to be Magical AND Physical.

    Hastes effectiveness will definitely be worse when you get the 4pc.

    With such a high uptime on Demon Spikes, Mastery will be much better, simply because the main ability it effects is going to be up more often.

    Also for those comparing their live stats to this, remember that the amount of Mastery required for 1% DR is going up from 466 on live to 533 points. On top of the 10% nerf. The ability is also made to have most of the DR come from Mastery.

  11. #11
    Legendary! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Haste will literally be trash the second you get your 4 piece bonus.
    Not even close, nope.
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Tech614 View Post
    Haste will literally be trash the second you get your 4 piece bonus.
    Quote Originally Posted by Munkky View Post
    Hastes effectiveness will definitely be worse when you get the 4pc.
    So, higher(much, MUCH higher since more pain=more spikes and more haste=less CD) uptime of DSpikes is trash.
    Ktnhx fam, great insight there buddies.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by daed4 View Post
    So, higher(much, MUCH higher since more pain=more spikes and more haste=less CD) uptime of DSpikes is trash.
    Ktnhx fam, great insight there buddies.
    You realize one of the people you quoted is quite literally the guy who wrote the guide on playing Vengeance, right?

    Haste becomes less important because the tier set is giving you increased uptime compared to not having it already, and mastery will buff the value of this increased uptime. It's better to have a higher damage reduction and high uptime than to have pathetic damage reduction with a slightly higher uptime than that. Versatility is just a great overall stat for tanks because it provides both DPS and tankiness at the same time, which makes it very valuable.

    Thus, haste is much less important with the tier set than it was previously.

  14. #14
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fooicus View Post
    I would recommend you read Munkky's guide to the changes in 7.1.5, he seems to have put a lot of effort into analysing the effects of the changes on our stat priority:
    http://www.wowhead.com/news=258861/a...in-patch-7-1-5

    In essence, for survivability our general stat prio (as per Munkky's update) will be:
    (with tier) Mastery > Vers > Haste > Crit
    (without tier) Vers > Haste = Mastery > Crit
    After reading through the changes in Munkky's guide, I am thinking about changing my spec from Live to 7.1.5
    Changing so many things at once is gonna feel like playing a new class. Will take some getting used to.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  15. #15
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Cronovey View Post
    You realize one of the people you quoted is quite literally the guy who wrote the guide on playing Vengeance, right?

    Haste becomes less important because the tier set is giving you increased uptime compared to not having it already, and mastery will buff the value of this increased uptime. It's better to have a higher damage reduction and high uptime than to have pathetic damage reduction with a slightly higher uptime than that. Versatility is just a great overall stat for tanks because it provides both DPS and tankiness at the same time, which makes it very valuable.

    Thus, haste is much less important with the tier set than it was previously.
    Yes, and last time i checked he wasn't an uberpro mythic raider.

    haste is good because:
    Extremely high double dip with tier 4p and natural reduction.
    Buff to shear while meta hence making shearspam more favorable do so, making it more probable that it'd spawn orbs for meta procs.
    Haste is bad:
    Extremely shit since 4p makes it redundant


    Haste will come with a softcap.


    Also vers is getting a double dip nerf.

  16. #16
    Haste is reduced in effectiveness because the tier gives such a high uptime. On average I've seen from 15% to 30% uptime on ptr. It is not dogshit, however it is not as strong as it is currently due to the nature of effective uptime. If you include Feed the Demon, (which more people will be using) and then if you need the AM uptime you take Demonic Infusion for another ~15% uptime bump. With all of this combined, increasing the amount of damage reduction of that Demon Spikes, on top of more magic damage coming in Nighthold, (of which Haste has little effect on outside of some extra healing), Hastes value drops.

    P.S. I may not be an Uberpro Mythic Raider myself, but I put in a lot of work on this spec, as I have for almost a year now, AND I do actually work with some Uberpro Mythic Raiders, as well as various other Theorycrafters.
    Last edited by Munkky; 2017-01-08 at 03:24 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by daed4 View Post
    Yes, and last time i checked he wasn't an uberpro mythic raider.
    You're 2/3H ToV. Glass houses, bro.

    Also, not everything statwise is Good/Bad... There's a happy place in between called mediocre.

  18. #18
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    the 'problem' with haste is that between tier and 'Feed the Demon' we're just about at our softcap at neutral (and certainly if accounting for the odd gearpiece that got haste on them), when looking at it from a "I want to survive" standpoint, and focusing our stat distribution against haste gives more than choosing another talent than Feed the Demon

  19. #19
    Elemental Lord Felfaadaern Darkterror's Avatar
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    <smiles at everyone debating stat balance> As if the RNG gods ever let us choose perfect itemization anyway.

    "I Am Vengeance. I Am The Night. I Am Felfáádaern!"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by daed4 View Post
    Yes, and last time i checked he wasn't an uberpro mythic raider.

    haste is good because:
    Extremely high double dip with tier 4p and natural reduction.
    Buff to shear while meta hence making shearspam more favorable do so, making it more probable that it'd spawn orbs for meta procs.
    Haste is bad:
    Extremely shit since 4p makes it redundant


    Haste will come with a softcap.


    Also vers is getting a double dip nerf.
    The tier set combined with Feed the Demon already provides plenty of uptime. Coming from someone who has played tank/healer/DPS for mythic raids this expansion, trust me on this. I'd much rather have 30% uptime on a 30-40% damage reduction that I can use during predictable damage spikes over having practically useless 10-20% over a longer period of time. There are too many people obsessed with the overall uptime when you should be focusing on high mitigation during heavy damage periods to smooth out your incoming damage.

    If I know that a boss hits like a truck (for example, Elerethe on Mythic) I'd rather have a stronger Demon Spikes for the time periods where I need it (directly after Feeding Time, Raking Talons) when I know the healers are going to be occupied topping off the raid. It's needed for burst periods, not because I want to lower the damage I'm taking by 15% for half the fight, especially when there's a large period of time (while she's in the air for Feeding Time, while she's changing platforms, etc) that I'm not going to need the ability active.

    Pre-tier haste is valuable because you need that cooldown reduced, but the tier does the work for you and allows you to focus on the mitigation and timing more than your overall uptime, which is how it should have been designed in the first place.

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