flying in argus

[Sammonoske]

Not angry, not sure why you're saying "so what," because my point was that it the zone worked fine without flying, and no, it doesn't make sense because we have no idea how they're going to ship the zone.

You talk as if the implementation of the Argus zone is going to stop you from entering and using flight in the other zones. Nobody is stopping you from doing any of that. Additionally, we have no idea how Argus is going to be delivered, so the concern over there possibly not being flying could be completely unnecessary.

Your post just proves that you ultimately have no idea what you're talking about because there's more to them being "lazy" with wanting to add flying to Quel'Danas.

That is not what I am talking about at all. I am saying having flight enabled after it is earned in 7.2 only to end up with it disabled in new content at the end of the expansion would be a dumb move. Yes we don't know how Argus will turn out, but odds are it will be very much like Tanaan Jungle.

Why say it is unnecessary to be concerned? Being concerned with future content is the whole point of really any discussion. Saying that just removes you from it. Oh don't worry, we don't know how it will turn out. Pft, ok.

[Gweenz]

I think that Argus will be something similar to Isle of Thunder or Quel'Danas, a.k.a. as a non-flying zone.

[SirCowdog]

Or we could just have quest mobs, bosses, dungeons and everything run to us. Ultimate convenience which is obviously the best thing for the game, right?

I'll skip waiting for your answer since I already know it. No, it's not the best thing for the game to have ultimate convenience. The game is crafted in such a way that convenience is levied against what is fun.

It is generally not considered fun, and was often complained about at long length on the official and unofficial (Read: MMO-Champion) forums that it was not fun to mount, go to a mob, kill it, mount again, go to a mob, kill it, mount again, etc. Blizzard looked at this, weighed the responses, and decided You are right. This is not what we intend our game to be. This is what prompted the stance they have taken.

You want to run all the way to highmountain, taking significantly LONGER to get the quest done, just so you can skip the content? Go for it, you're actually inconveniencing yourself that way.

"But why not add flight instead?"

Because it makes it too easy. Because not everyone has access to the gliders, the slow falls, the many ways to skip the content that you've mentioned. Because when you can mount up and skip everything at will, instead of doing things the right way the first time and figuring out the skip-strategies later, Blizzard needs to account for people having the ability to skip it all IMMEDIATELY. The 'right way' becomes the 'skip way.' There is no way to design good content that ALWAYS includes flight. There are only so many ways they can design content around flight. And, funny enough, most of them have already been tried and found EXTREMELY LACKING.

Vash'jir is an example of 'flight content' seeing as it's an entire zone where you effectively 'fly' at all times. (Swim technically, but you have full 360 degree motion.) It is by and large considered the worst zone to ever exist in WoW.

Prior to that, Wrath of the Lich King was going to have flying vehicles for combat in Wintergrasp. I even still have my original Wrath box that STATES THAT. It was removed from the game due to massive bugs and clunky design.

Even MORE prior to that, BC had cannons that would shoot people out of the sky when flying over certain areas. These barely functioned as intended. They either ALWAYS hit you and caused a massive disruption due to being unable to complete quests, or NEVER hit because it always targetted where you WERE instead of where you were GOING.

There is only so much you can "just design around." Flight is something which has gone through multiple iterations and was found lacking in every single one.

Citation needed for basically your entire post. This sounds more like you personally don't like flight.

For every post you can link of someone complaining about flying being bad, I can link 10 or 100 in support of flight. You claim that not flying is the "right" way, but then completely ignore all the ways I presented in which a player can also bypass everything that flight would allow. Blizzard has to account for players skipping things the first time? You mean like riding in on their ground mount with a no-dismount buff? What about stealth? Blinks? Aggro drops? CC?

You're trying so hard to blame flight for everything that you're ignoring the reality that other abilities can obtain the same results.

Also, way to straw man with flying combat from WotLK. Using something that never happened as an argument against flying? Come on now.

[Seramore]

That is not what I am talking about at all. I am saying having flight enabled after it is earned in 7.2 only to end up with it disabled in new content at the end of the expansion would be a dumb move. Yes we don't know how Argus will turn out, but odds are it will be very much like Tanaan Jungle.

Why say it is unnecessary to be concerned? Being concerned with future content is the whole point of really any discussion. Saying that just removes you from it. Oh don't worry, we don't know how it will turn out. Pft, ok.

Except it's not getting disabled.

[grexly75]

I have to wonder what people find more important.. New playable, fun and engaging content or flying.. Because from reading this thread the main consensus seems to be screw new playable, fun and engaging content I just want my flying..

I used to be the in the pro flying camp but with so many people whinging, whining, QQing and just general carrying on like a pork chop.. I am in the I don't give a crap about flying camp now..

[SirCowdog]

I have to wonder what people find more important.. New playable, fun and engaging content or flying.. Because from reading this thread the main consensus seems to be screw new playable, fun and engaging content I just want my flying..

I used to be the in the pro flying camp but with so many people whinging, whining, QQing and just general carrying on like a pork chop.. I am in the I don't give a crap about flying camp now..

Your mistake is in assuming that everyone finds the same things fun. People who want flying don't necessarily look at the ground content and immediately creme their pants in anticipation.

[Temp name]

I don't expect it to be flyable at all, let alone when we arrive.

[-Joker-]

Waaa waaaa waaa I want flying!

Certainly feels appropriate. I remember back in '05 and '06 when players were excited about patches, content, and TBC prepping for launch. Seems like the entitled generation is more interested in bitching about the game not fitting their narrative.

[SirCowdog]

The bolded is blatantly false. Running with no dismount is still seeing the content, even if you are attempting to skip it. Stealth, same thing. Blink, same thing. Aggro drop, same thing. Flight is not the same as any of the above, where you are actively skipping over the content.

Right...ok. So skipping content with one method is ok, but not with others.

Great, I'm glad logic is involved in this discussion. :/

And here, I'll cite everything I said. Not that it'll be the first time I've cited this to someone who claims to know a lot about the flight/no-flight argument but actually hasn't done any research whatsoever, but hey.

Vashj'ir being the least-liked zone: (Linking multiple for this as this is generally considered very opinion based, with some loving and most hating with a passion.)
http://fandomania.com/the-top-10-wor...d-of-warcraft/ - One of the top 10 worst zones in wow per this site
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...4981697?page=1 - Highlights the extremely volatile nature, with about equal numbers putting it at the best as those putting it at the worst
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76vgNgji5Rk - Placing Vashj'ir at number 4 of the top 10 worst leveling zones (7:37 for those who want the explanation)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xg-9cWbGxQ - Another with Vash'jir in the top 10 worst zones (This one at #10, so right at the beginning of the video)

Ok...so you pulled up some random websites and videos which outlined someone's personal opinion of why they don't like Vash'j. That doesn't make it true, it just means you found someone to agree with you. I can bring up multiple thousand+ page threads with people who agree with me. That doesn't make Flying objectively good or bad. But let's break down why your examples are bad ones, just to be sure:

Fandomania: Complaints are not actually about flying, but that the zone is too big and the quests take too long. Immediately goes on to show how getting the seahorse actually solves that problem. Mentions trying to kill things under water is a pain, but doesn't explain WHY, making the point useless to the discussion.

WoW forum link: Wow dude...a 3 page thread where there are mixed likes and dislikes for Vash'jr. And most of the complaints about Vash'jr are not related to 3D movement, but rather the oppressive feeling of being under-water, the terrible faction rep, and the tedium of the quests. This does not support your argument against flying.

Planet Dolan Entertainment vid: Alright, here's something that actually has a point. 3D combat was annoying to the creator of the video. However, I'd like to point out that this is, again, just his personal opinion. Not to mention that Vash'Jr is only ranked 4 out of 10 of his worst zones, and the top comment of THE ENTIRE VIDEO is pointing out how there are some people who liked Vash'jr.

In the same video, his number 9 worst zone is Borean Tundra. He specifically states as the main problem with that zone:

"You walk 2 meters and aggro everything in the zone"
"You can't walk anywhere without aggroing 10 miles of trash"

His number 2 worst zone was Blade's Edge Mountains, where he talks about how the areas are separated by hidden paths and bad terrain which in only really mitigated by....wait for it....having a flying mount.

Sound familiar to complaints about Legion trash and terrain design?


WoWcrendor: You actually used Crendor as support for your argument? Hoooooboy. Ok. Once again, however, the complaint about the zone are not actually related to flying, or are problems that "flying" solves. His primary reasons for putting it at the top of his hated list was "you move slow underwater" and "it takes too long to get to the zone". Let's see...what makes you move fast underwater? Oh..that's right...the mount. /facepalm

All your links only support MY argument, which is that people didn't like Vash'jr for other reasons besides flying. The ONLY complaint that actually holds any water at all(see what I did there?) is the one about 3D combat, which is admittedly a problem. However, that's more of an issue with the poor UI for targeting enemies, and individual players inability to handle depth perception. Flying combat is also not something which anyone(that I know of) is asking for.

So, what exactly is your point here? You don't have one. You're attempting to hold flying responsible for problems it doesn't cause, or pointing to problems that are so minor as to be immaterial to the argument.

Wrath having flying vehicle comabt: Bringing this up early, cause you claim it never happened. It actually did. In the beta testing for Wrath this was available and was not functional whatsoever. The vehicles were unattackable except for from other flying vehicles, which also could barely attack you because they were so buggy. This is why they were removed. This isn't something I have to prove - This was just the case.

When did this happen? Closed Beta? Alpha? The only flying combat in WotLK that I've ever seen has been the quest-based vehicle stuff where you shoot down NPCs. And that made it to live with few issues. Are you talking about open world PVP between vehicles?

Regardless, this is also not relevant to the argument. Who is currently asking for flying combat? Anyone? At best there are people(like myself) who have cited that anti-air canons and Kaliri birds have been a mechanic successfully used in the past to control how players approach content from the air. In many regards it's no different than how Blizzard used the NPCs in Suramar who can see through your illusion.

Again, what is your point here? You're attempting to use an experiment that never made it to the general public as an example against non-combat flying mounts?

BC Fel Cannons:
http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11010/bombing-run#comments (The comments speak of the "just keep moving and you won't get hit" strategy for the fel cannons)

Oh...you mean like not standing in the fire during raids. /facepalm

Is this really all you've got? It's a mechanic that people had to dodge. It's no different than any other mechanic where you have to move to avoid taking damage or suffering other ill effects.

Anti-flight complaints before removal of flight:
Refer to my posts. Or any other person arguing with you. Literally, we are here talking to you. You don't need a citation.

And believe me, I know you can link 10 to 100 comments in support of flight for every anti-flight post. But this isn't because people want flight - It's because the old forums where this was actually discussed was taken down along with most of the posts of anti-flight when they revamped the forums with Cataclysm. Any post from Pre-Cata explaining why flight was causing problems with the game is gone. (On the official forums.)

That, or I could just say you all like to whine more than we did back then, and get you plenty of un-related whine posts to prove it.

No, what's really going on here is that people like you can't admit that other people actually have grounds for liking flying, and that it didn't cause the massive game-breaking problems that you like to think it did. This entire argument boils down to people not being able to handle the fact that flying is something that people like, and just because YOU don't like it doesn't make it bad for the game.

My entire point in breaking all this down is not to have one big "Got ya!" session, but to hopefully get you, and others like you, to recognize that Flying isn't actually causing all the problems that people keep blaming it for. Flying was NOT a problem until WoD when someone(most likely Afrasiabi and Hazzicostas) made a concerted effort to demonize it because they didn't PERSONALLY care for it. None of the reasons or explanations they've given in blue text hold up under scrutiny.

[Seramore]

-people actually bothering to still get into arguments with sircowdog in 2017

[Queen of Hamsters]

My bet would be that it'll arrive in the same packaging as Isle of Thunder... a new place where everyone's grounded. I won't mind, as long as I can fly in the Broken Isles. ^^

[SirCowdog]

-people actually bothering to still get into arguments with sircowdog in 2017

People still being wrong about flying in 2017.

I don't mind if people say "I don't like flying." It's when they cross the line and try to say that flying is bad for everyone, or when they mindlessly parrot the flawed reasons to support why it's "bad" that I step in.

[Miztickow]

That will obviously come in 8.2

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

If that was the case, we would be able to fly on the Isle of Quel'danas by now.

[Thage]

Depends on how fleshed out the Argus zone will be.

It's quite possible that we only get to see a rather small segment and it will turn out like IQD/IoT/TI.

While they could pull a Tanaan Jungle on us again, and let the end game zone that is unlocked on the last patch be flyable, this is what I expect.

Same tbh. Argus will likely end up non-flyable, or there will be an Argus Pathfinder put in and unlocked at a later date once the world content has run its course with the larger share of level-capped players (by 7.2, even the most casual of players among the 110 crowd will likely have caught up and finished everything there is to do that would appeal to them). I generally expect that going forward, they'll be doing a lot more of this--staggering flight in launch zones, then staggering it for post-launch zones if they include it in post-launch zones at all. How popular Argus world content remains long-term without a Pathfinder achievement giving flight might well be the real test for how popular Legion's Adventure Mode-esque approach to world content ends up being (by removing flight as the carrot on a stick, it comes down to whether the activities and rewards stand on their own as engaging activities).

[Vargur]

No idea man.

Sent from my Nokia 3310 using Tapatalk

Exactly, nobody except Blizzard has any idea. I hope we'll fly, obviously, but as usual they don't care what we hope.

Sent from my DynaTAC 8000x using Tapatalk

[SirCowdog]

Same tbh. Argus will likely end up non-flyable, or there will be an Argus Pathfinder put in and unlocked at a later date once the world content has run its course with the larger share of level-capped players (by 7.2, even the most casual of players among the 110 crowd will likely have caught up and finished everything there is to do that would appeal to them). I generally expect that going forward, they'll be doing a lot more of this--staggering flight in launch zones, then staggering it for post-launch zones if they include it in post-launch zones at all. How popular Argus world content remains long-term without a Pathfinder achievement giving flight might well be the real test for how popular Legion's Adventure Mode-esque approach to world content ends up being (by removing flight as the carrot on a stick, it comes down to whether the activities and rewards stand on their own as engaging activities).

I honestly have less of an issue with staggering the release of flight, so long as the stagger isn't under a hard time-lock like it is now. If players can progress through Pathfinder at their own pace, and get flying when they've actually completed the objectives instead of at some arbitrary, unknown date, then that's not too bad.

Mind you, I think the open world should be built to include flying in the first place. But this current stance by Blizzard of "Screw you! You never get flying until it's worthless" needs to go.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The issue with all the flying I have is.... how do the point mounts fly? I mean some of them are the exact copies of the mounts players have. Dispels the immersion a bit do you think?

Any more immersion breaking then doing a crafting animation and then boom mount appearing out of nowhere. Suspension of disbelief is a thing.

[Waarheid]

Hmmm.... I just can't bring myself to trust these new cut-rate airlines.
Flying in Argus? Nope. Bring back Pan-Am.

[SirCowdog]

None of what you said in this post is any more than your opinion as well. I'm not here to have one big "Got ya" session. I'm telling you the legitimate reasons why this was changed, and you're simply saying "Well that's just, like, your opinion man" as if this entire discussion isn't just our opinions, and why Blizzard decided in the end that the anti-flying crowd was right.

Except that I'm not just stating my opinion, I'm backing it up with logical reasons and explanations for why the excuses about Flight being bad are objectively wrong. Read it carefully. I'm not just saying "Flight doesn't let you skip stuff". I'm saying "Flight doesn't let you skip stuff any more than X, Y, and Z, which are still in the game." You gave examples of problems that flight was causing, and I pointed out to you EXACTLY why your examples were flawed.

And instead of recognizing that, you're attempting to dismiss it as opinion. Which it's not.

All of these things that you've listed as benefits? Detracted from the overall experience of the game. Blizzard recognized this and 'fixed' it. I just find it funny that your entire preference was exactly what was wrong with the game previously.

Detracted from who's experience? Fun is subjective. Even Blizzard themselves stated that about half their devs and half the players liked and wanted flying. The only problem here is that one side of the discussion is having their point of view completely ignored, EXACTLY like what you're doing now.

You're even exaggerating in order to reinforce your point of view: "Detracted from the overall experience of the game." Objectively false. It might have supposedly detracted from the open world, but NOT the entire game(which includes raids, dungeons, arena, and battlegrounds. Outside of a few specific gimmick encounters, none of that has flying). Nor does flying have any impact on indoor areas such as caves or buildings, or any no-flying islands. Flying also doesn't allow players to bypass weekly or daily lockouts, nor does flying kill mobs for players, or gather materials for them.

So what, exactly, is flying supposedly ruining? The great journey of riding your land mount through rolling fields full of trash mobs? Good god! THE HUMANITY! THE TRAGEDY!!!

That holds up under scrutiny. You can sit and argue that isn't the case, but you're wrong - Since the removal of flight, people have repeatedly said that questing in the game has been objectively better. It's the one point most agreed on in both WoD and Legion - The questing is definitely better. Why might that be? Could it possibly be that you're actually doing the quest CORRECTLY and actually experiencing it instead of just rushing through it like every other quest? Among many, many other things, yes, it could be, and you refuse to accept that as a possibility.

That's just confirmation bias. There are just as many people complaining about how irritating and annoying it is to play Legion without flying as there are people commending the current quest experience. It also, once again, assumes that there is only one, single way to enjoy the questing experience and have fun with it.

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say that one side of the discussion is having its point of view completely ignored. Instead of allowing people to choose how they want to quest, we're being told by people like you that there is only ONE way to play. And this is in the face of expansions from TBC to MoP which worked perfectly fine and good WITH mixed areas of flying and no flying. And here you sit telling me to believe that people like questing in WoD and Legion MORE than WotLK where the game was at its highest population and participation rates of the game's entire lifespan?

Like I said. This all boils down to you personally not liking flight. Fine. I don't care! Don't use flying then. But don't try to tell me that how I experienced the game for nearly a decade is wrong because you can't envision ways to play the game other than your own.

Whatever. If Blizzard wants to screw players with no-flying in Argus right after giving them flight back again, it's no sweat off my back. I'm done giving WoW my money if they do. They've got a real chance to bring back in a LOT of players here who are waiting for flight, and they're stupid if they screw that up.

[Klingers]

I can realistically see Argus as a zone being like Molten Front.