7.1.5 RA Opener, + RA vs DR

[zeula]

Hi all!

So I was wondering how much theory crafting had been done at this point regarding RA versus DR come Tuesday. In looking at the Fury discussion pages back I did see some talk that RA was going to be a ST increase over DR. Intuitively to me that doesn't seem to make much sense, but, I'm a numbers guy, so I'm going to do whatever the numbers say. So that being said, what becomes our opener w/ RA? I would imagine it is something like this:

(Battle Cry/Avatar + Rampage Macro) - RB - OF - BT - RB - (Rampage or ...FS? yuck)

Then, as BC is coming up on CD, I suppose the idea would be to set up a situation where we essentially rampage twice in a row?

Any thoughts?

[wrastor]

Last I checked, you can't macro Rampage with Battle Cry with Reckless Abandon. The game doesn't recognize that you have enough rage on the same GCD. So technically, you have to hit it twice anyway.

And that priority sounds about right. During my tests, RB, Melee and Rampage are my top 3 and Melee and Rampage are within 0.1% of each other.
With Reckless Abandon, you can BC/Ava > Rampage > RB > OF > BT > RB within the BC window (granted you have sufficient haste).
As for BC post-opener, I would normally double Rampage. In cases where I have like less than 30 rage and not enraged, I would just BC and Rampage then.

I believe the reasoning in why it COULD be a dps increase is because of higher enrage uptime (longer BC window for more BT-Enrages and rage due to helm), and Rampage usage increases (more Odyn's Champion and Rage of Valarjar procs).

Also, Execute phase becomes significantly easier with Reckless Abandon. You would BC for a rage refill without really relying on much BT filler usage.

In a recent Kelade video, on his sims DR still does more dps however marginally so.

[Deleted]

Last I checked, you can't macro Rampage with Battle Cry with Reckless Abandon. The game doesn't recognize that you have enough rage on the same GCD. So technically, you have to hit it twice anyway.

And that priority sounds about right. During my tests, RB, Melee and Rampage are my top 3 and Melee and Rampage are within 0.1% of each other.
With Reckless Abandon, you can BC/Ava > Rampage > RB > OF > BT > RB within the BC window (granted you have sufficient haste).
As for BC post-opener, I would normally double Rampage. In cases where I have like less than 30 rage and not enraged, I would just BC and Rampage then.

I believe the reasoning in why it COULD be a dps increase is because of higher enrage uptime (longer BC window for more BT-Enrages and rage due to helm), and Rampage usage increases (more Odyn's Champion and Rage of Valarjar procs).

Also, Execute phase becomes significantly easier with Reckless Abandon. You would BC for a rage refill without really relying on much BT filler usage.

In a recent Kelade video, on his sims DR still does more dps however marginally so.

It was a pretty good video. I gave it a like

[Deleted]

Then, as BC is coming up on CD, I suppose the idea would be to set up a situation where we essentially rampage twice in a row?

Any thoughts?

Thats what I did when I played with it instead of DR. Just like in PvP

Edit: For clarification - that was before i got the helmet. Now RA seems to be a waste of rage in PvE, only useful for imense burst in mythic+ or as a burst in short execute phases

[frontfleezy]

I have had a hard time finding RA information even on live, so I messed around myself.

At least at my haste, using rampage in BC is bad. I've found what works best is using BC after being enraged (lucky BT or save up for next rampage if needed), BC, raging blow, OF or BT (order depending on time of enrage left), RB. Even at low haste I always get the second RB in there, then follow up with a rampage to keep the enrage going. GCD fix to rampage would save a lot of rage.

In 7.1.5 with BC lasting two seconds longer, I'd assume using rampage seems to depend if you lose a global or not. Being able to open up BC with rampage would be nice to not waste all that rage.

[Deleted]

I have had a hard time finding RA information even on live, so I messed around myself.

At least at my haste, using rampage in BC is bad. I've found what works best is using BC after being enraged (lucky BT or save up for next rampage if needed), BC, raging blow, OF or BT (order depending on time of enrage left), RB. Even at low haste I always get the second RB in there, then follow up with a rampage to keep the enrage going. GCD fix to rampage would save a lot of rage.

In 7.1.5 with BC lasting two seconds longer, I'd assume using rampage seems to depend if you lose a global or not. Being able to open up BC with rampage would be nice to not waste all that rage.

For double Rampage during BC with RA you should use BC after you cast Rampage so BC only aplies to like 2 last hits of that Rampage. By doing this BC wont be locked behind hard 1.5GCD of rampage, Then you continue RB - OF - 2nd Rampage - RB - BT (This is doable even now with 5sec BC, also it only applies for post opening BC burst)

[Deleted]

IMO After BC you should use Rampage - Raging Blow - Odyn's Fury - Bloodthirst - Raging Blow - Rampage (with legendary helm) OR Rampage - Raging Blow - Bloodthirst - Odyn's Fury - Raging Blow - Bloodthirst (without helm)

Thing is its not possible to fit 3 Raging Blows inside BC, by using Rampage first you use your rage so it can get filled up again and use another rampage in the BC window. Cuz if you Raging Blow right away you are probably going use Furious Slash during a BC window

[Archimtiros]

RA is far better than DR come 7.1.5, to the tune of about 5% difference between the two (~35k dps at the top end) and pulls even further ahead with Nighthold trinkets/gear.

My guides will be updated on or before Tuesday, so you can look over rotations and supplementary information in more detail then, but the basic rules of the rotation don't change; RA simply makes it last longer.

[Deleted]

RA is far better than DR come 7.1.5, to the tune of about 5% difference between the two (~35k dps at the top end) and pulls even further ahead with Nighthold trinkets/gear.

My guides will be updated on or before Tuesday, so you can look over rotations and supplementary information in more detail then, but the basic rules of the rotation don't change; RA simply makes it last longer.

So basically, in my Opener I still don't Rampage even though RA gives me the rage to do so immediately? (Prepot - Avatar/CDs/BC - BT - RB - OF - BT - RB then Rampage?) That's what I usually do because during that first BC I usually generate enough rage for a Rampage anyway and use that first thing after BC window. Only difference is that with the new RA that Rampage should still fit inside BC but the 100 rage from RA are wasted because by the time I use them I would be almost rage capped naturally anyway. Is that correct?

Then in any post opener BC window I should Rampage before and then proceed with the same BC rotation mentioned above?

[Deleted]

sorry my post did make much sense =)

[Tydan]

RA is far better than DR come 7.1.5, to the tune of about 5% difference between the two (~35k dps at the top end) and pulls even further ahead with Nighthold trinkets/gear.

My guides will be updated on or before Tuesday, so you can look over rotations and supplementary information in more detail then, but the basic rules of the rotation don't change; RA simply makes it last longer.

Hi Archimtiros....thanks for this where are your guides located?

[Deleted]

Hi Archimtiros....thanks for this where are your guides located?

http://www.wowhead.com/fury-warrior-guide

[frontfleezy]

For double Rampage during BC with RA you should use BC after you cast Rampage so BC only aplies to like 2 last hits of that Rampage. By doing this BC wont be locked behind hard 1.5GCD of rampage, Then you continue RB - OF - 2nd Rampage - RB - BT (This is doable even now with 5sec BC, also it only applies for post opening BC burst)

Won't the jacked rampage GCD prevent us from getting extra globals in BC? Especially with two rampges?

[wbbfan]

RA is far better than DR come 7.1.5, to the tune of about 5% difference between the two (~35k dps at the top end) and pulls even further ahead with Nighthold trinkets/gear.

My guides will be updated on or before Tuesday, so you can look over rotations and supplementary information in more detail then, but the basic rules of the rotation don't change; RA simply makes it last longer.

Looking at your guide under rotation for RA -single target wouldnt WW be better then FS? I could see FS being better if it wasnt followed by a BT which is allready in the BC window. But since it is wouldnt WW do more single target damage then FS?

The rampage right at the beginning of BC is soo clunky I hope they fix it.

[Montegomery]

IMO After BC you should use Rampage - Raging Blow - Odyn's Fury - Bloodthirst - Raging Blow - Rampage (with legendary helm) OR Rampage - Raging Blow - Bloodthirst - Odyn's Fury - Raging Blow - Bloodthirst (without helm)

Thing is its not possible to fit 3 Raging Blows inside BC, by using Rampage first you use your rage so it can get filled up again and use another rampage in the BC window. Cuz if you Raging Blow right away you are probably going use Furious Slash during a BC window

The problem with the double Rampage strategy is that most of Rampage's damage is backloaded. You might start the second Rampage during BC, but the last 2-3 hits of Rampage will fall outside the BC window. You'd need more than 40% Haste for it to work because it takes a full 2 seconds, regardless of Haste, for all of Rampage's hits to land.

The second rotation (BC+Rampage->RB->BT->OF->RB->BT) is probably correct (Edit: according to Archimtiros it's not, see the edit below), though there are two questions I haven't seen answered:

1. If you Enrage before starting the RA/BC window, is it better to swap OF and Rampage?
2. At 30%+ Haste it's possible to fit 7 GCDs in the RA/BC window if you cut Rampage. Is it worth it?

Question 1 is a matter of whether 1-2 ticks of OF missing the window are worth more than the 30+ Rage you overcap by delaying Rampage. At low Haste, or with multiple targets, it's probably better to hit OF first if you're pre-Enraged, but at 25%+ Haste it likely doesn't matter since only 1 tick will fall outside the BC window.

Question 2 is awkward because one of the 7 GCDs will end up being FS. You can fit in 3 RBs if you're pre-Enraged, but is that worth losing out on 60+ Rage? Seems like a wash unless you have a proc to use in place of FS, but if you do that's probably better.


Edit: According to Archimtiros' Wowhead guide the correct rotation is:

• BC+Rampage -> RB -> OF -> BT -> RB -> FS -> BT

Unless you have a lot of Haste (36%+) the last BT falls outside the window, but I don't see that changing anything.

[Archimtiros]

You can't double Rampage without Carnage anyway, which isn't worth running. Maybe with a lot of Haste and the enrage helm, but at that point you likely have enough haste to be able to fit two Rampages anyway.

[Deleted]

25% haste and legendary helm and you can use rampage twice (if you use rampage right after BC)

[Archimtiros]

The second rotation (BC+Rampage->RB->BT->OF->RB->BT) is probably correct, though there are two questions I haven't seen answered:

1. If you Enrage before starting the RA/BC window, is it better to swap OF and Rampage?
2. At 30%+ Haste it's possible to fit 7 GCDs in the RA/BC window if you cut Rampage. Is it worth it?

Question 1 is a matter of whether 1-2 ticks of OF missing the window are worth more than the 30+ Rage you overcap by delaying Rampage. At low Haste, or with multiple targets, it's probably better to hit OF first if you're pre-Enraged, but at 25%+ Haste it likely doesn't matter since only 1 tick will fall outside the BC window.

Question 2 is awkward because one of the 7 GCDs will end up being FS. You can fit in 3 RBs if you're pre-Enraged, but is that worth losing out on 60+ Rage? Seems like a wash unless you have a proc to use in place of FS, but if you do that's probably better.

The answer to your questions is that it's better to Raging Blow first if you're already Enraged upon going into Battle Cry (and with NH tier you easily can be). It sacrifices a bit of rage, but will get 3 RBs inside BC once you hit that 7th GCD. It's also more effective to use RB first once you get Draught.

- - - Updated - - -

25% haste and legendary helm and you can use rampage twice (if you use rampage right after BC)

Not in place of the first BT though, it would happen during the second BT/last GCD of BC, which would cause the ass end of Rampage to fall out; so again, you still wouldn't want to do it.

The only time it's reasonable is if you're over 40% haste, getting 7 GCDs inside BC with enough left over to make up for the extra GCD time on Rampage; basically, during Lust.

[Deleted]

Not in place of the first BT though, it would happen during the second BT/last GCD of BC, which would cause the ass end of Rampage to fall out; so again, you still wouldn't want to do it.

The only time it's reasonable is if you're over 40% haste, getting 7 GCDs inside BC with enough left over to make up for the extra GCD time on Rampage; basically, during Lust.

According to Simcraft it's better for me to start Rampaging right after BC instead of BT, I only BT once during a BC,

So that would mean, Rampage-Raging Blow-Odyn's Fury-Bloodthirst-Raging Blow-Rampage

(Unless I misunderstood you)

[Deleted]

so with RA+Frothing Berserker setup we should skip using execute at all if we dont have legendary ring? because using rage on execute would delay us from proccing frothing berserker more often?