[PROT] I am trying to Tank but I feel weak.

[Deleted]

I would challange the idea that Last Defender over Seraphim is the way to go for mythic+.

While the argument that Last Defender functions the more mobs you are tanking, it makes you tankier, holds true. It comes to a certain point where the scaling of the talent starts to yield less and less Damage and Damage Reduction per mob tanked. Unlike Seraphim, regardless of how many mobs you are tanking, you will always get the raw value from the talent given its a Flat Secondary Stat increase. Naturally this has the benefit of being of great value against a low number of mobs, in addition to being stronger on bosses.

From a defensive point of view. A Seraphim cast yeilds you roughly 10%/5% Damage/Damage Reduction on cast from versatility, in addition to increasing the strength of my SotR by roughly 7%. This alone is not something to shy away from.

When we then add in the remainder of the Secondary Stats that gets ramped up,which would be an increase of roughly 13% Critical Strike aswell as the boost of roughly 15% haste. Haste speeds up the recharge time of your SotR, aswell as letting you perform your rotation more rapidly, this naturally leads to more attacks that can trigger Grand Crusader, more Blessed Hammers and more Judgments. The Critical Strike has synergy with Avengers Shield from the Artifact Traits Bulwark of Order aswell as Tyr's Enforcer, increasing the not only the damage it will deal, but as a consequence, increasing the Shield the Avengers Shield cast will provide you aswell.

Keep in mind, that Versatility has the benefit of " Double Dipping " with Averngers Shield, the Versatility increases the damage the cast will actually do, resulting in a stronger Bulwark of Order, but what the Versatility does aswell as the previous, is to increase the raw Shield Value aswell, since the absorb shield counts as healing.

What i have been talking about for the last few paragraphs have been mainly from a defensive point of view, but clearly, all these Stat boots equate to a great ammount of your damage, a paladin that has Seraphim, and bursts propperly on packs, versus a paladin that doesnt have the tallent, is noticable in favour for Seraphim. This becomes Especially important in mythic+ where, in higher keys, you will be pressed on time, and the added DPS Seraphim will allow you to do, suddenly becomes very relevant, without even harming your abilities to tank that much.

Now with all this said, is not to discredit the usage of Last Defender, Last Defender has its place, and holds its value, and by all means, play with it if you enjoy and feel safe doing so. But i would advice, if you aspire to become a top notch mythic+ tank, is to become comfortable, and practise, an aggresive style of tanking, especially with Seraphim at hand.

[Deleted]

yet Seraphim doesnt have 100% uptime unlike LD and it takes away precious stacks of SotR.
Thats a clear downside and should be mrntioned when u compare Seraphim to LD
To be honest the last row of talents is pretty much the best of them all, as all 3 talents are valid picks that actually feel like they matter.

[Azsune]

I feel it really depends on how hard you feel your going to get hit. Seraphim will increase your dps enough on pulls to make a difference at the cost of taking more damage. I feel that it is the better choice in most cases for mythic+ unless you are under geared. If you look at the 20 clear video you can see the paladin using Seraphim and pulling some really good damage.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I will experiment more with Seraphim at some point. One of its drawbacks is that it requires some of your attention - pooling chargres, aligning it with other CDs, popping it at opportune times. Also there's more to go wrong - if tank gets CC'd, Seraphim does little to help, whereas LD would have continued to provide its passive DR. Those passive buffs for LD free me to focus on the rest of my tanking responsibilities - picking up adds, CCing before I get CC'd, movement and facing, etc.

[Deleted]

yet Seraphim doesnt have 100% uptime unlike LD and it takes away precious stacks of SotR.
Thats a clear downside and should be mrntioned when u compare Seraphim to LD
To be honest the last row of talents is pretty much the best of them all, as all 3 talents are valid picks that actually feel like they matter.

I think this critizism towards my point is perfectly fair , that Seraphim Indeed does come at the expense of two stacks of SotR ( Which is left out in my original post ). Obviously if your camping Seraphim usage to dish out greater uptimes on SotR, value gets lost within that to begin with.

But as i said, my post about Seraphim was not to discredit the use of LD or RP, it was more ment as a standalone argument for Seraphim for mythic+, since i got the understanding from reading the posts, that LD seemed to be the prefered talent of choise, which is perfectly fine. Point being, there is another outstanding option, should one want to explore that.

EDIT : Also, i was talking about Seraphim actually having defensive value aswell, this does not mean Seraphim is a defensive talent, because its the opposite. More that, once you get SotR's up during Seraphim windows, you will get a noticable defensive spike.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Even with Last Defender, I am consistently over 300k total DPS for an instance, sometimes over 400k, all while enjoying free use of SotR, loads of passive DR, and having one less mechanic to manage.

[Guzrud]

Even with Last Defender, I am consistently over 300k total DPS for an instance, sometimes over 400k, all while enjoying free use of SotR, loads of passive DR, and having one less mechanic to manage.

You have to take whatever Benhir says with a gain of salt the size of Utah. This is the same guy that just argued all day long that Final Stand was a vastly more usefull talent than HotP. He fails to mention that his legendary pants basically carry the shit ouf of his dps with First Avenger so he rationalizes that what he is saying is correct or applicable to you. Being able to spam 5 target Avenger Shields with First Avenger as a talent in no way illustrates ability or knowledge in regards to what talents you should be playing regardless of your dps number at the end of the dungeon.

Seraphim has a much higher uptime than the actual 53.3% uptime potential would indicate. Imagine you are doing a M+ like say DHT. Now I would run to the first 2 packs obv pop Prolonged Power/AW/Seraphim and go crazy for 15-20 seconds while we kill that pack then move up to the bear/3 caster/2 bird pull and do the same thing with Seraphim. The time between the pulls is my downtime of 14 seconds. So lets say for example it takes 18 seconds to kill pack 1 and 15 seconds to move to pack 2 and then 20 seconds to kill pack 2. If I pop seraphim at the first pack i have 16/18 seconds of uptime then 16/20 seconds of uptime on the second pack. Obviously I am making the numbers make sense for my example and your mileage will vary depending on a limitless number of factors but you can see that if you game the uptime of seraphim and use your time moving between packs as the downtime recharge you can have an effective uptime much higher than 53%.

I would say anything sub 10 you should play seraphim in 100% of all mythic plus dungeons and I would say most people are playing below 10 a huge percentage of the time. Perfect example our buddy Benhir here has 112 M+ dungeons done in time only 2 of those are 10+ I have 289 done in time only 10 of mine are 10+.

Benhir here is playing almost of his M+ dungeons below 10 with an 885 IL screaming that he is using LD because he wants to be more survivable? Am I the only person who thinks this is maybe one of the more ridiculous things they have ever read hear on the forums? If you have an 885 IL with 46 Traits you should be using dps trinkets with every dps talent possible and just steam rolling M9 3 chest in your sleep with carries.

One of the great strengths of a Paladin especially in 5 man content is we can deal an incredible amount of dps while being self sufficient. Here is a perfect story of how crazy overpowered Paladins are in 5 man content. I had my normal carry group together we run Prot Paladin/BM Hunter/Havoc DH/Demo Lock and we get healer carries for M+ we carry just about anything that isnt HoV. So we get an Arcway 5 Key with a resto druid and on the first boss the druid dcs and never comes back. We kill the first boss and just start moving forward to the second boss the druid isnt back we kill it keep moving forward I am just self sustaining with CDs and HotP offhealing when necessary we keep moving forward. We complete the dungeon M5 arcway and +2 the instance with no healer and only 4 bodies. Clearing a 5 Arcway without a healer is no godlike feat its just an example of the sufficiency of a paladin in 5 man content. Now why would I have run LD which would be less dps and less healing to have a bit more DR that we obviously didnt need even without a healer?

If you want to play a tank that is super smooth at damage intake then play a monk/druid/war a paladin is not a smooth damage tank its just not. We look the part with full plate and a shield but that is not our style. We are Gods during Sotr uptimes and we are spikey outside of them but we have other tools that you have to learn to use to play at a high level. I will not say none but I will say a resounding majority of high level players who play paladins play with seraphim a HUGE percentage of the time. The guy from the EoA 21 clear played guess what......Seraphim because its just plain better in the VAST majority of situations.

Benhir has a bad habit of coming here and shouting his preferences for playstyle regardless of its accuracy and passing it off as good information. Play seraphim almost all the time in 5 mans it will serve you well.

[Deleted]

You have to take whatever Benhir says with a gain of salt the size of Utah. This is the same guy that just argued all day long that Final Stand was a vastly more usefull talent than HotP. He fails to mention that his legendary pants basically carry the shit ouf of his dps with First Avenger so he rationalizes that what he is saying is correct or applicable to you. Being able to spam 5 target Avenger Shields with First Avenger as a talent in no way illustrates ability or knowledge in regards to what talents you should be playing regardless of your dps number at the end of the dungeon.
-- SNIP --.

I could never play mythic+ with any other talent then Seraphim. I have tried LD and RP extensively and i really dont like it, to the point that if i have to take them, id rather not mythic+ at all.

All my +15's are done with Seraphim regardless of affix combinations and i have never found a situation where Seraphim holds me back from actually tanking.

I did my first +5 in 830 gear with Seraphim and got a 2 chest doing so, and ever since, i have never looked back at any other talent for mythic+.

Now i am 890-892 equipped, Artifact level 46 soon to be 47, and at this point, not playing Seraphim is just a straight downgrade in all its aspects.

Given i have Legs and Chest combo, on a regular +12 and above, i avarage around 450-550k DPS throughout the dungeons i do, without Seraphim, lower that by 100k atleast. Not to talk about the absurd synergies Seraphim has with Old War and Wings. On a Maw of Souls9 we did the other week, i ended at 950k avarage without a single dungeon death. Bursted for 3.5 milion damage on the first boss.

Where i am going with this is, that Seraphim is absolutely bonkers for mythic+ and without Seraphim, all these numbers would be severely reduced. Does this mean that LD or RP are bad by necessity? Ofcourse not, which i already stated, all it means is that if you are serious about taking your mythic+ tanking to a decent level, you play Seraphim.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

You have to take whatever Benhir says with a gain of salt the size of Utah. This is the same guy that just argued all day long that Final Stand was a vastly more usefull talent than HotP. He fails to mention that his legendary pants basically carry the shit ouf of his dps with First Avenger so he rationalizes that what he is saying is correct or applicable to you. Being able to spam 5 target Avenger Shields with First Avenger as a talent in no way illustrates ability or knowledge in regards to what talents you should be playing regardless of your dps number at the end of the dungeon.

Seraphim has a much higher uptime than the actual 53.3% uptime potential would indicate. Imagine you are doing a M+ like say DHT. Now I would run to the first 2 packs obv pop Prolonged Power/AW/Seraphim and go crazy for 15-20 seconds while we kill that pack then move up to the bear/3 caster/2 bird pull and do the same thing with Seraphim. The time between the pulls is my downtime of 14 seconds. So lets say for example it takes 18 seconds to kill pack 1 and 15 seconds to move to pack 2 and then 20 seconds to kill pack 2. If I pop seraphim at the first pack i have 16/18 seconds of uptime then 16/20 seconds of uptime on the second pack. Obviously I am making the numbers make sense for my example and your mileage will vary depending on a limitless number of factors but you can see that if you game the uptime of seraphim and use your time moving between packs as the downtime recharge you can have an effective uptime much higher than 53%.

I would say anything sub 10 you should play seraphim in 100% of all mythic plus dungeons and I would say most people are playing below 10 a huge percentage of the time. Perfect example our buddy Benhir here has 112 M+ dungeons done in time only 2 of those are 10+ I have 289 done in time only 10 of mine are 10+.

Benhir here is playing almost of his M+ dungeons below 10 with an 885 IL screaming that he is using LD because he wants to be more survivable? Am I the only person who thinks this is maybe one of the more ridiculous things they have ever read hear on the forums? If you have an 885 IL with 46 Traits you should be using dps trinkets with every dps talent possible and just steam rolling M9 3 chest in your sleep with carries.

One of the great strengths of a Paladin especially in 5 man content is we can deal an incredible amount of dps while being self sufficient. Here is a perfect story of how crazy overpowered Paladins are in 5 man content. I had my normal carry group together we run Prot Paladin/BM Hunter/Havoc DH/Demo Lock and we get healer carries for M+ we carry just about anything that isnt HoV. So we get an Arcway 5 Key with a resto druid and on the first boss the druid dcs and never comes back. We kill the first boss and just start moving forward to the second boss the druid isnt back we kill it keep moving forward I am just self sustaining with CDs and HotP offhealing when necessary we keep moving forward. We complete the dungeon M5 arcway and +2 the instance with no healer and only 4 bodies. Clearing a 5 Arcway without a healer is no godlike feat its just an example of the sufficiency of a paladin in 5 man content. Now why would I have run LD which would be less dps and less healing to have a bit more DR that we obviously didnt need even without a healer?

If you want to play a tank that is super smooth at damage intake then play a monk/druid/war a paladin is not a smooth damage tank its just not. We look the part with full plate and a shield but that is not our style. We are Gods during Sotr uptimes and we are spikey outside of them but we have other tools that you have to learn to use to play at a high level. I will not say none but I will say a resounding majority of high level players who play paladins play with seraphim a HUGE percentage of the time. The guy from the EoA 21 clear played guess what......Seraphim because its just plain better in the VAST majority of situations.

Benhir has a bad habit of coming here and shouting his preferences for playstyle regardless of its accuracy and passing it off as good information. Play seraphim almost all the time in 5 mans it will serve you well.

1. I've been pretty humble and open about saying that Last Defender was what I preferred, but I understood others might prefer Seraphim. Don't think I've even once claimed to be the great authority on the subject; merely talked about what worked for me and why I chose it.
2. You are assuming the logs you're looking at are up to date, which they apparently aren't. I couldn't give you an exact count of how many 10s and 12s I've completed in time, but it's a lot more than 2 lol. There have been weeks where we purposely avoided upgrading a MoS12, for example, because we were using it as a carry key for guild mates and didn't want it turning into a HoV13.
3. If you go back and look at that old thread, I think you'll see that I never argued "that Final Stand was a vastly more usefull talent than HotP". You kept saying HotP was the only right choice, and I kept arguing back that it wasn't black and white, that Final Stand had its uses too.
4. I will say the debate we had with HotP vs. Final Stand got me using HotP more often; it's actually my default choice nowadays, although I still spec Final Stand for necrotic. That debate wasn't something we "just argued", however - I think it was more like a couple or three months ago.

- - - Updated - - -

I could never play mythic+ with any other talent then Seraphim. I have tried LD and RP extensively and i really dont like it, to the point that if i have to take them, id rather not mythic+ at all.

All my +15's are done with Seraphim regardless of affix combinations and i have never found a situation where Seraphim holds me back from actually tanking.

I did my first +5 in 830 gear with Seraphim and got a 2 chest doing so, and ever since, i have never looked back at any other talent for mythic+.

Now i am 890-892 equipped, Artifact level 46 soon to be 47, and at this point, not playing Seraphim is just a straight downgrade in all its aspects.

Given i have Legs and Chest combo, on a regular +12 and above, i avarage around 450-550k DPS throughout the dungeons i do, without Seraphim, lower that by 100k atleast. Not to talk about the absurd synergies Seraphim has with Old War and Wings. On a Maw of Souls9 we did the other week, i ended at 950k avarage without a single dungeon death. Bursted for 3.5 milion damage on the first boss.

Where i am going with this is, that Seraphim is absolutely bonkers for mythic+ and without Seraphim, all these numbers would be severely reduced. Does this mean that LD or RP are bad by necessity? Ofcourse not, which i already stated, all it means is that if you are serious about taking your mythic+ tanking to a decent level, you play Seraphim.

You make a good case Mindtime, and I will definitely experiment more with Seraphim. Overall it feels more hi-risk/hi-reward than LD, but perhaps at our gear levels I should be embracing that.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

I would challange the idea that Last Defender over Seraphim is the way to go for mythic+.
...
Now with all this said, is not to discredit the usage of Last Defender, Last Defender has its place, and holds its value, and by all means, play with it if you enjoy and feel safe doing so. But i would advice, if you aspire to become a top notch mythic+ tank, is to become comfortable, and practise, an aggresive style of tanking, especially with Seraphim at hand.

Seraphim is only high risk if you do not plan your actions.

Part of what's put me off is both the planning and the practice required. Like most tanks, I ran Seraphim in WoD because of the ring and burst windows. Survivability was no issue at all the way we out-geared content toward the end. Going into Legion, the guides I read all gave the same summary:

• Righteous Protector: Best survivability for single target.
• Last Defender: Best survivability for multiple target and good for tanking lots of mobs.
• Seraphim: DPS gain at a survivability loss, best used for content you over-gear.

So I went into M+ spec'ing Last Defender and grew comfortable with it. It's never been brought up as a problem in-game; my guild mates are impressed both with my survivability in M+ as well as my DPS. Admittedly I am in a mostly H raiding guild that dabbles in Ms, but we do run a lot of M+ and clear some high keys. But I've never claimed to be an elite authority and I'm not claiming that now.

The time or two I've played with Seraphim in M+, the concerns I had were protecting myself (especially during nasty affixes) while pooling charges, lining Seraphim up with my other CDs, and how long I could use SotR before I needed to stop and pool charges for the next Seraphim. All of this was a mental distraction from doing the rest of my tanking job.

I am sure it all gets easier/more intuitive with practice, and I like the way Mindtime puts it: I should practice and become comfortable with the Seraphim play style so I can make my own informed choices on when it will best serve.

[Zubacz]

Part of what's put me off is both the planning and the practice required.
(...)
I am sure it all gets easier/more intuitive with practice, and I like the way Mindtime puts it: I should practice and become comfortable with the Seraphim play style so I can make my own informed choices on when it will best serve.

I ran a lot of mythic +, because my team was striving for +15. I have to say, in the beginning I used almost only Righteous Protector, because it felt really powerful to be able to heal so often. However, once we started doing higher M+, I tried out Seraphim and after a few comparison runs, never went back. Seraphim is great because it's on a really short cooldown. It aligns almost perfectly with trash packs and during those 16 seconds it is up, you and your team will most likely kill some of the pack members. And it is not only a dps cd. The amount of haste, mastery and versatility it provides makes your damage intake way smoother.
I would really advise learning to use it in M+. Unless it is buffed, it will lose usefulness in the higher tiers of content, but right now, I think it's by far the best of the lev 100 talents, for 5man content.

[Deleted]

I think it's by far the best of the lev 100 talents, for 5man content.

thats your oppinion, fair enough - and in the end is a good sign that experiences with the last talent row varies from player to player. For me the stability of Last Defender + 3 Stacks SotR outshines Serenity in 5man content. Unless im stunned there is just no moment when i dont either have SotR running (easy to heal), Hand of Protector ready (healing myself), or the enemys are beeing stunned by my group, giving me some precious moments to regen the cooldowns of SotR and HoP.

Last time i did a pug 10+ mythic with my healing alt (mistweaver monk) i was healing a paladin that went for a combo of Crusader's Judgment + Righteuous protector which i wasn't even considering to be valid up to this point. And what can i say.. he was literally spamming that SotR to HoP weave and was healing every spike hp drop that he encountered himself. i was merely the guy doing the basic foundation of his healing with my hots.

In the end we have some very interesting combinations and possibilities in our talent rows. What is best can always change with the threats we are facing, personal preferences and equipment synergies at our disposal. And that is a very good thing

[Burning Synapses]

From a defensive point of view. A Seraphim cast yeilds you roughly 10%/5% Damage/Damage Reduction on cast from versatility, in addition to increasing the strength of my SotR by roughly 7%. This alone is not something to shy away from.

That is given in exchange from the lost uptime in Shield of the Righteous. You take more damage with seraphim and it barely gives a tenth of the reduction that an extra Shield gives on demand.

[Draketalon]

I really don't understand why you guys fight over comparing Seraphim to Last Defender, when imo Righteous Protector is the go to talent for M+ for most affixes. I find that at high end gear (i'm currently 883) you only die from spike dmg, and you take far less dmg than the others in your group ( talking about high level keys ofc ). If you stack haste, as you should, you would have no problem in maintaining a constant passive or active mitigation on yourself. Seraphim indeed gives you a 16 second 10% dmg reduction and some avoidance but it takes away 2 stacks of SotR which could mean an attack (or more, usually more) that you could've taken with a 40% dmg reduction, will now kill you. Seraphim for me is not a viable talent choice, for neither raiding or M+.

Now talking about Last defender. While it is the obvious choice for affixes like Necrotic or Raging maybe even overflowing if you don't call out your selfheals on some form of voice chat, again we're talking about the spike dmg and how to counter it. I find that a self heal wich heals 50% of your missing health, is better than some flat damage reduction. If you manage to get to a decent amount of haste% you should heal yourself each 5-6 seconds (with Hand of the Protector talent, which is a must anyways). Imo it's all about the spike damage not the passive damage you take, Ok you take 10% less dmg constantly on trash pulls but you have less tools to deal with spikes mistakes and etc. I don't know how many times it saved me to hit a last sec SotR and then use HotP to keep myself up.

Another excelent point on using Righteous Protector is you can help your team better if they need heals and the healer just can't make it. Also if you use AW on every cd you will still do more damage than Seraphim, and with the AS buffs from talent and artifact trait, even your absorbs will get bigger. with the right amount of haste (again) you should use one every 1.20 mins - 1.30 mins.

For raiding at least, Righteous protector is the obvious choice, if there's anyone who doesn't think that, you should really rethink about what you thought you knew about paladin tanking

[Deleted]

The choice in the last row is practically only Seraphim / Righteous Protector.
Last Defender is practically a worse version of Seraphim.

For m+ you have 2 choices in talents. Its either A) seraphim + Bubble Taunt, b) or Righteous protector and hand of the protector.

The seraphim combo is (FAR) superior on large pulls, allowing you to bubble once your strong CDs are starting to expire. This requires not only a high dps group, but also a decent healer.

The righteous protector combo performs better if all you need is survivability / group support. This will be the case if your healer is bad, youre progressing mythics at the edge of your gear or dps isnt high enough to benefit from seraphim. You can save your party with this, for instance on BRH last boss, or Xavius - but many other areas of content too.
This playstyle will offer you significantly less dps though.

At its core you are the tank, first is you need to survive - second is your group needs to survive - and third is your damage needs to get pushed. Good tanks will know for which content they will need what talents.

[Deleted]

You only lose uptime if you don't plan ahead properly, and with proper planning the lower uptime is very minor and is counter balanced by the increased DPS (lower fight length).

at the end of each trash pack you should have an idea of:
How long is until the next trash pack
How many charges of SoTR you have
Your judgment cooldown
Seraphim CD
Your AD cooldown (you use this as filler as it's so short)

You also need to remember that you get more haste in seraphim so the trade off is very low. as during the first few seconds of sera you have a charge of SoTR plus the CD of Judgment and SoTR are both lower with the increase of haste also.

I figured i'll hijack this thread as we're chatting about M+ i've just started gearing my paladin alt its about 878 equipped (only 27 traits though) and I can see a steady rise in damage going out albeit i'm still a chicken s*** with using Sera over SoTR at present.

I have faith in the healers running with me from the guild but i'm so low on hp i'm dreading a bad few hits and being squished to a pulp. My main is a BrM/WW and despite the stigma that comes with them, they're pretty solid tanks, my damage incoming is laughable so I push max dps in flasks even. Do you guys normally run Stam or Str flasks? I'm using Str at the moment but find my Hp is dangerous low (mainly as traits so low I guess)

Any feedback much appreciated. Do note though, that I only ever run Sera as its a clear winner but terrible to used in higher M+ in at times!

[Spiffums]

The trick I found to Prot paladin really was about optimising use of light of the protector and shield of the righteous.
I highly suggest the righteous protector talent. So.
Shield of the Righteous will then lower the cool down on light of the protector
Judgment will lower the cooldown on Shield of the righteous.
So for LotP, only us it when you drop below about 40% health and you'll bounce right back up, it's a waste to use it a high health, so it has no place in a rotation so to speak.
SotR has 3 charges, so make sure you always are using it before it caps at 3 so that you're not wasting it by always having a charge recharging. But also try not to often use up all 3 charges because you want to always have one ready to go if the boss winds up for a big hit. Use Judgment on cooldown to make regain charges of SotR faster.

I'm a big fan of Bastion of Light as it's terrifying to get caught without any SotR charges so having that in your pocket is always very nice
I prefer final stand for those oh crap moments as it's both an immunity and a mass taunt. It's also crazy good if you ever start doing mythic + dungeons and have to deal with necrotic.

Also it's very important to be able to use big cooldowns light guardian and ardent defender before you need them. If you pull a really big trash pack or the boss is about to go crazy use it before you start losing health. 50% damage reduction doesn't do much good when you're at 20% health, but it's amazing at 90% I had and still have a bad habbit of not using them soon enough because I keep feeling this need to keep them for later in case I need them. They come back quickly, just use them. Besides if you have Final Stand for the bubble taunt you can sit on that for the oh crap panic moments and use the other big cool downs more frequently.

That's what I have the most trouble with. I main a blood dk 99% of the time and play my pally as an alt/break from the DK. Decided to go prot this time instead of ret and all my tanking "habits" are heal after the fact. It's tough to get switched to having something to hit before you get smacked in the mouth by the boss.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

In either scenario you do not priortise Seraphim over SoTR - You only use it when you are comfortable with the following 10 seconds or so and have an idea in your head of how it's going to plan out.

I like the way you put that. That's something I can wrap my head around.

Flasks: STR (Unless it's over 15, then Stam)
Food: Haste
Rune: Only for 15+ I'd say tbh

At 890 and rank 52 in artifact, I am over 4.1 million health. Stam flasks don't feel like they make a big difference. I feel like the cumulative effects of a STR flask on the length of the run is more helpful.

Haste food, of course.

I use runes anytime I'm tanking M+ at 7 or above, but that's just me. I like to be at my best, and Legion has been very good to JCs. Gold hasn't really been an issue for quite some time.

- - - Updated - - -

That's what I have the most trouble with. I main a blood dk 99% of the time and play my pally as an alt/break from the DK. Decided to go prot this time instead of ret and all my tanking "habits" are heal after the fact. It's tough to get switched to having something to hit before you get smacked in the mouth by the boss.

It gets easier as you get used to when to expect the damage. DBM essentially tells you when to use SotR. The affixes clue you when to use Ardent Defender (e.g., 30% for Raging). I agree that it's all about repetition and rhythm and it's hard to get that same comfort on your alt, especially in Legion when most of us play our mains 90% of the time. My alt is Vengeance DH, which plays very different from prot pally.