Hold off doing emissary quests until patch?

[Quibble]

If this wasn't the case, and loot was determined the moment you opened said cache, there would need to be 360 independant loot tables. One for each level for each spec.

Lol.. Going with how you have replied the last two times..

How about you think a little?

Obviously you do not need 360 loot tables..

It can work the excat same way as you descriped, but on open rather than creation..

You open the chest, and now the game determines what item slot it is, and then scales it to your level..

There is no fucking difference between doing it at opening rather than creation, other than when the roll for loot is happening.

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But what if after the first boss 10 people leave the instance, 15 other join, two switch their loot spec during the kill. Do you really think the server creates a matrix of all possible permutations of classes and loot specs when you enter an instance? Or would it not be much simpler to determine loot the moment the boss dies?

He basicly did say that it determines loot the moment the boss dies.. or when a chest is opened..

What is determined on creation, is how many drops there will be, or how many items to be in a chest. Then when you open it / kill it, the game rolls and determines what item is going to fill that loot spot that was determined on creation.

But he seems to be full of it, so I wouldn't really trust anything he says at this point.

I received two legendaries from doing Emmisary quests, and in both cases the legendary was awarded to me as soon as i turned in the quest, not when I opened the chest (i.e. It wasnt in the chest: for turning in the quest i recieved a legendary, an AP item, and an unopened chest). I would guess this is always how they are awarded from Emissary quests?

My first legendary was from doing an emissary quest. But the legendary dropped when I opened the cache. not when I turned in the quest..

The quest does not say that it gives anything other than the cache and AP item. So I don't believe you got it from turning it in, unless quest suddenly started working differently.

[Skulltaker]

For some reason he thinks



I'm not sure why he believes that proves he's correct.

Because it is a reasonable assumption based on observation and past statements. There are simply more indicators to me being right then to me being wrong.

You understand these are already ingame right? You can see your specs legendary loot table in the DJ.

Yes. I am talking about the tables in the background that determine loot, not the ones observable ingame.

So you're just shitting on everything I say with no basis? lol nice try. Thanks to another poster, here you go.

Dude. You've been the one shitting over everything I said, with no basis. While I have several indicators that my assumptions are correct. You are the one calling me a liar, without having the decency to provide ANY indication as to me being wrong. Whatsoever. I could very well be. But I could just as well be right. So please, stop trying to trigger me into some sort of angry reaction. If you can prove me wrong, go ahead. If not, feel free to stay and provide your own hypothesis. Or leave. But I'll not have you call me a liar with no basis for it. So far you've provided nothing constructive to this thread whatsoever, while I tried to provide a working theory how loot in caches is determined. You are acting like a child, and it's very bemusing, at this point.

[Dahij]

https://youtu.be/e03JuoGx9XQ?t=44s

Fair enough, saw a few more videos where it was looted like that as well.

[Deleted]

Source?

/10char

It's what happened when 7.1 went live.

[Skulltaker]

Lol.. Going with how you have replied the last two times..

How about you think a little?

Obviously you do not need 360 loot tables..

It can work the excat same way as you descriped, but on open rather than creation..

You open the chest, and now the game determines what item slot it is, and then scales it to your level..

There is no fucking difference between doing it at opening rather than creation, other than when the roll for loot is happening.

True. But we have instances where it has been confirmed that it is done upon creation of the container (or rather, the mob), while we have none saying it is done on opening. So I WAS thinking when I assume it is the same for emmisary caches, because there is no indicator why it should be different.

And if what he says here is true:

All through WoD, I'd copy my character across with the mythic cache item, and it was always the same, life and ptr. It doesn't re-roll the item.

then, yes, I'd be wrong about the ptr, but right about the caches. At least the mythic ones. And again, there is no indicator that emmisary ones are different.

[Puri]

While I have several indicators that my assumptions are correct.

Just curious what indications you have that loot is determined when the cache drops and not when it's opened. So far I found:

Indicators that loot of the emissionary cache is determined while opening:
- Itemlevel adapts to character itemlevel when opening
- Legendaries drop for the loot spec you have set while opening the cache
- Different items from the "same" cache when copying the char to the PTRs several times

Indicators that loot of the emissionary cache is determined while dropping:
- a blue post from 2012 that predates any personal loot system

What did I miss?

[impending doom]

I don't think legendaries are coded the same way as normal loot. Just to add more speculation, maybe they are always in the loot table, similar way as quest items in wrath: http://www.shacknews.com/article/578...ecret-world-of

"So what we did recently with Wrath of the Lich King, and it's something we've never really talked about before, but in Lich King, every creature that is part of the collection quest has the item 100% of the time," continued Kaplan. "But we do a progressive system where we up the chance the player [gets the item] each time he kills it."

But right now it probably doesn't matter, the patch is here in 1 day.

[Skulltaker]

Just curious what indications you have that loot is determined when the cache drops and not when it's opened. So far I found:

Indicators that loot of the emissionary cache is determined while opening:
- Itemlevel adapts to character itemlevel when opening
- Legendaries drop for the loot spec you have set while opening the cache
- Different items from the "same" cache when copying the char to the PTRs several times

Indicators that loot of the emissionary cache is determined while dropping:
- a blue post from 2012 that predates any personal loot system

What did I miss?

Nothing. But:

- Itemlevel also adepted to our level through leveling in draenor and legion. This mechanic isn't so unique. Scaling itemlevel items have been with us since Lich King. The item istelf remains unchanged, though.
- Well, we now have contradicting statements regarding the ptr, see what I quoted above. I haven't made any observeations myself, and I'm not the kind of guy who accuses someone of lying without any reason.
Either way: Different items doesn't mean that my assumption is wrong. You create a new cache the moment you copy the character (or rather the game creates it for you.) Which is a statement I think I saw in the other thread we had on this very topic a few weeks ago.
- legendaries are a little special. But again, it could just as well be that the game determines 'legendary inside' for when you obtain the cache, and which one it is the moment you open it.

So, none of the indicators you listed against my theory negate the validity for the one that speaks for it, and the one we have that speaks for it is official, not an assumption. Which is what I based my theory on, and so far nothing has directy disproven it. The scientific method, so to speak. It is a working hypothesis (which could be wrong, of course.) Again, it is my understanding that it is rather difficult to change

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That doesn't answer why having independent loot tables vs filters has anything to do WHEN loot is generated. It could be when you open the chest or when the chest is generated regardless if there are separate loot tables of just filters.

You stated what you said as fucking fact not some shit based on observations or whatever bull shit. At least not until you got called out on it. You even tried to refute something I didn't even say to you and got proved wrong.

Wrong again. See my first post:

It is not confirmed for emissary quests, but it is confirmed for all other containers you get. Just as loot is determined the moment the instance is created.

His illogical argument that somehow if loot is generated when the cache is opened that means they need loot tables for each and every spec and they wouldn't do that.

You are the one being illogical here, mate. You're assuming a system works different than documented precedents, just because.

[Puri]

Nothing. But:

- Itemlevel also adepted to our level through leveling in draenor and legion. This mechanic isn't so unique. Scaling itemlevel items have been with us since Lich King. The item istelf remains unchanged, though.
- Well, we now have contradicting statements regarding the ptr, see what I quoted above. I haven't made any observeations myself, and I'm not the kind of guy who accuses someone of lying without any reason.
Either way: Different items doesn't mean that my assumption is wrong. You create a new cache the moment you copy the character (or rather the game creates it for you.) Which is a statement I think I saw in the other thread we had on this very topic a few weeks ago.
- legendaries are a little special. But again, it could just as well be that the game determines 'legendary inside' for when you obtain the cache, and which one it is the moment you open it.

So, none of the indicators you listed against my theory negate the validity for the one that speaks for it, and the one we have that speaks for it is official, not an assumption. Which is what I based my theory on, and so far nothing has directy disproven it. The scientific method, so to speak. It is a working hypothesis (which could be wrong, of course.) Again, it is my understanding that it is rather difficult to change

Yes, there could be very complex systems behind it. Or it could be very simple. And you seem to prefer the complex implementation.
And your indicator is an assumption, too. What we have official is that by 2012 all loot was determined when a mob spawns or an instance is initiated. And you assume that this holds still validity in the game today in general or in special for the emissionary caches.

[Skulltaker]

How does scaling item level existing before matter? I really don't understand why you think loot inside a chest is going to dynamically change as you level rather than determine its level when you open it.

I DON'T. That's what I said from the very beginning. Thank you for demonstrating your abysmal skills of reading and comprehending. The ITEM inside is determined when you get the cache. The ITEM LEVEL when you open it.

Even if it actual item is determined beforehand, for example a chest piece, the level doesn't need to dynamically change. It can be determined upon open. I also doubt they would do that separately. It's more likely they determine the item AND level at the same time.

Thank you for using the exact same example I used multiple times. And no, it isn't more likely, because we know of several instances where loot was determined befor looting. What makes you think they changed this?

I don't think the PTR thing is proof either way because even if the loot was determined when the chest is created, it's possible the game just creates a chest but has to reroll the item upon creation.

I agree, however Emerald Archer said he observed otherwise. And without having done any observations of my own...

The quote you thinks has anything to do with this is completely irrelevant. It's talking specifically about boss and world mob loot.

And what makes you assume that containers are any different? It might be, but what's your basis for that assumption? In the end, Chests, cosses, boxes, they are all containers.

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Yes, there could be very complex systems behind it. Or it could be very simple. And you seem to prefer the complex implementation.
And your indicator is an assumption, too. What we have official is that by 2012 all loot was determined when a mob spawns or an instance is initiated. And you assume that this holds still validity in the game today in general or in special for the emissionary caches.

Yes. I do. Because there is no reason to assume any different. But massivly changing a system, or creating a new one, is usually more work then adding refining parameters to a working one. They are working with a 12 year old game and a 15 year old engine. Legion isn't a new game. They have to work with what they established over years.

[Kikazz]

It does, people have done it before. I just got a legendary two days ago so I find it statistically improbable to get another before Wednesday so I am doing mine normally

thats what i meant no point holding on to them.

[Skulltaker]

You can't use a quote talking about a loot system that we're not talking about. Personal loot obviously doesn't work that way and it's not even talking about chests that are created. It's talking about spawned mobs and raid bosses.

So do you retract your argument that somehow loot being generating upon opening it means they have to create independent loot tables? Because it doesn't.

You are the one who brought personal loot into it. But emmisary caches don't work like personal loot either, do they?

[Deleted]

Ehm i missing something here like the difference between prepatch and patch ones

[Psykhe]

True. But we have instances where it has been confirmed that it is done upon creation of the container (or rather, the mob)....

"Confirmed" for a older version of WoW. Where it is kinda obvious that it is not up to date.

A simple scenario why it cannot work like that anymore:
Raid zones into instance without any plate wearer in the raid. Later plate wearer joins raid. Boss drops plate item.


So all you have is a confirmation that it *worked* like that in one instance.

[Puri]

Yes. I do. Because there is no reason to assume any different. But massivly changing a system, or creating a new one, is usually more work then adding refining parameters to a working one. They are working with a 12 year old game and a 15 year old engine. Legion isn't a new game. They have to work with what they established over years.

And that's the point I don't agree with. They introduced personal loot, first for bosses only. Now every single mob outside drops personal loot, multitagging was just another big change to how the game works. Then we know there are several event containers that regard your personal loot spec, others ignore it.

Personal loot functions completely different from what we were used to before, as it adds your personal loot spec to the filter. Even when running with GL/ML the loot generation must be different, because the amount of loot pieces that drop at all depend on the amount of loot eligible players at the kill.

It's fairly obvious the loot generation has gone through several iterations over the years. And I am pretty certain the server side loot system has no longer the limitations it had five years ago, simply by observing the game.

You assume they have gone very complicated ways with workarounds and patches, and I say they have implemented a completely new system. Those systems might not even be exclusive, it could very well be that for old content the old system is used, and for new content the new system. Or it got replaced completely.

[Skulltaker]

Maybe you just didn't make that very clear? You seemed to have suggested earlier that it changes as you level. I really don't see any reason for them to want the chest to fetch an item ID but not the level until later only to then fetch the level based on your level.

I'm really not even arguing it's one way or another. My whole point of initially responding to you was that you were so confident you were correct but even you yourself admitted you can't actually know. Then you made some shit argument about there having to do independent loot tables if it works one way but it's completely irrelevant and you still fail to admit that.

I repeated myself several times. The only way I could have made it any clearer would have been to strap you into a chair, subject you to psychopharmaceuticals and make you believe that you yourself came up with this example. I never suggested anything of that kind, please feel free to go back and reread it.

The reason 'it fetches the ID and scales the level' is because we know of instances where the game does just that.

And I really apreciated the way you reacted in the first place. Not a careful 'couldn't you be wrong?' Or a just as acceptable "I think you are wrong, and here is why:" but straight forward calling me a liar like a 12 year old. You know why I am so confident about it? Because I'm a very confident man.

And yet I had the wisdom to write, explicitly, that it could be wrong. You obviously saw that, thank you very much, so I'm now making the assumption that everybosy else saw that aswell. Why did you go through the trouble and called me a liar, then? I said, from the beginning, it might be wrong. You then proceeded into stating, without doubt, that not only I WAS, but that I deliberatly misled people. Why? Are you desperate for attention?

What I used is called the scientific method. Observe, ask questions, create a hypothesis. Which I have. A working one, at that. Sadly, I cannot create any testable predictions, because I'm lacking a test group, and, truthfully, I don't care enough about the topic to find one. If you can provide some drop rates for emmisary caches come patch day I'd be happy to analyze them. And if you can prove me wrong, I'll happily admit I was.

What I do care about is being called a liar by someone who has jack shit to back up this insult. Especially if he later admits that he didn't properly read what I said to begin with. Or he suggested it.

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And that's the point I don't agree with. They introduced personal loot, first for bosses only. Now every single mob outside drops personal loot, multitagging was just another big change to how the game works. Then we know there are several event containers that regard your personal loot spec, others ignore it.

Personal loot functions completely different from what we were used to before, as it adds your personal loot spec to the filter. Even when running with GL/ML the loot generation must be different, because the amount of loot pieces that drop at all depend on the amount of loot eligible players at the kill.

It's fairly obvious the loot generation has gone through several iterations over the years. And I am pretty certain the server side loot system has no longer the limitations it had five years ago, simply by observing the game.

You assume they have gone very complicated ways with workarounds and patches, and I say they have implemented a completely new system. Those systems might not even be exclusive, it could very well be that for old content the old system is used, and for new content the new system. Or it got replaced completely.

See, this is completly fine. You disagree, and you even back it up. I can accept that. I'll still stick with my hypothesis, though, but you phrased your opinion rather well and made a good argument. Personal loot could, for example, create a phase for you in every zone, and loot is still predetermined the moment your phase of said instance is created (when you enter the raid, that is). Can you change the way loot is distributed inmid raid?

"Confirmed" for a older version of WoW. Where it is kinda obvious that it is not up to date.

A simple scenario why it cannot work like that anymore:
Raid zones into instance without any plate wearer in the raid. Later plate wearer joins raid. Boss drops plate item.

So all you have is a confirmation that it *worked* like that in one instance.

Depends ont he raid and the loot system, doesn't it? And see the above post.

[Deleted]

Don't big patches usually bring 3 fresh cache-quests?

I mean it as: 3 instead of 1?

[Puri]

Can you change the way loot is distributed inmid raid?

Yes. You could even change it infight, but that lead to PUG raid leaders switching from GL to ML shortly before the boss died and he "ninjad" the items. So I think since last MOP patch you no longer can switch loot settings infight (note that you still can change your personal loot spec infight). But you still can change raid loot settings out of combat.

[Skulltaker]

You started the thread off saying



You never even suggested you don't actually know or you're just basing it off "rational assumptions" until after I called you out on it. Stop moving goals posts and backtracking.

Oh, so,you proved me wrong on that one?

And you are not going to adress anything else I said? How you failed to properly read my posts, for example? Or how you insulted me? Or how you failed to produce a single theory on how YOU think loot is generated?

I didn't backtrack anything. I didn't change goal poasts. It always puzzled me how some people think they can shout others arguments down by crying 'stop changing goal posts', 'stop backtracking'. Try actual arguments for a change. If you can, that is. Which, by your behaviour I observed so far, I highly doubt.

Yes. I did. Right befor what you quoted. And what I said in that quote build on it. Allura said that Legion Prevent chaches disagree with me, and I whowed him or her how they don't. And offered an explanation.

[muto]

Source?

/10char

Well when Kara was released I got 3 new emissary quests.