New PTR patch notes, DVa nerfed to the ground and more..

[Jessicka]

"nerfed to the ground" lol, dramatic much?

She has slightly less armor now, and her cannons do slightly less damage. How is that "to the ground"?

She's in a worse state than she was before they buffed her to this level, with less effective health, less damage, and more damage drop off. As others have noted, combined with the Ana nerf, she's getting completely wrecked on PTR now.

[Stopsight]

These nerfs are definitely necessary (would like to see changes to DVAs "nullify everyone's bullets and ults" toggle), but could we get some pharah nerfs please? She should really have a 4 missile clip.

Sincerely - Junkrat Main

[Traveler Voltin]

Looks like i need to find a new tank to play
Sigh

[ati87]

This

People just don't understand that "tank meta" is really because of Ana. Not because Rein, Dva or Zarya are broken.

Dva on current build is allready loosing 1v1 VS soldier or reaper. The armor nerf is way too much, welcome to your new Winston

Not going to argue the merits of the changes of D.va but

This isn't a 1vs1 game where D.va needs to fight against long ranged battle against Soldier or close range battle against tank buster Reaper.

D.va's strength never was being a 1vs1 queen, hell the only tank that should be strong in 1vs1 situation should be Roadhog (his hook combo). If you throw Rein into a 1vs1 situation as well chances are he will get destroyed before he could reach Soldier and just get wrecked by Reaper.

[Mormolyce]

This

People just don't understand that "tank meta" is really because of Ana. Not because Rein, Dva or Zarya are broken.

Dva on current build is allready loosing 1v1 VS soldier or reaper. The armor nerf is way too much, welcome to your new Winston

She should lose 1v1 to Reaper, that's his JOB. Arguably Soldier too.

Also it depends what you mean by tank meta, Ana no doubt contributed to the popularity of the triple tank comp, but 2-2-2 was pretty much always the standard. Unless Blizzard nerfs the front running tanks or introduces a serious counter to it, 2+ tanks probably always will be considered optimal.

[Deleted]

She should lose 1v1 to Reaper, that's his JOB. Arguably Soldier too.

Also it depends what you mean by tank meta, Ana no doubt contributed to the popularity of the triple tank comp, but 2-2-2 was pretty much always the standard. Unless Blizzard nerfs the front running tanks or introduces a serious counter to it, 2+ tanks probably always will be considered optimal.

2-2-2 hasn't been the standard for a while now. 3-4 tanks has been the standard lately. Mainly that has been because of Ana, yes. Current state of D.va has also contributed to this standard since she's by far the most broken tank in the current meta, and should really be picked in every single game. I mean, people actually have been playing her as kind of a DPS/Tank hybrid anyway, like Roadhog, so it does make sense she is not the strongest of all the tanks with insane amount of armor.

Ana nade nerfs sounds pretty good. We'll see how it works out.

[Charge me Doctor]

Still not enough imo. This super heavy tank meta is a real joke, so no suprise d.va got nerfed hard since she is broken atm.
The hook change though, R.I.P. hooks but its not something game breaking, he is still a good hero.
I am surprised that Ana got a lol nerf...this is still not enough to make her balanced, they should have made the anti-healing 50% too, not just ally boost.
That sombra "buff" LUL xD. No seriously what is that even.

tank-heavy meta is dictated by Ana, not by tanks

[ati87]

tank-heavy meta is dictated by Ana, not by tanks

Not totally fair though, since it's a combination of multiply factors including the individual strength of the tanks.

Ana as a healer is limited since she lacks the mobility of Lucio and Mercy, if combat was all over the place she wouldn't be able to function.

But since tanks don't go and jump (unless they charge) around Ana as a healer/damage dealer is able to function.

[Hottage]

Nerfed the crap out of D.Va because she was buffed to almost be a requirement, but leave Reinhart untouched even though he's been absolutely required since the beginning of Season 1.

Okay.

[Mormolyce]

2-2-2 hasn't been the standard for a while now. 3-4 tanks has been the standard lately. Mainly that has been because of Ana, yes. Current state of D.va has also contributed to this standard since she's by far the most broken tank in the current meta, and should really be picked in every single game. I mean, people actually have been playing her as kind of a DPS/Tank hybrid anyway, like Roadhog, so it does make sense she is not the strongest of all the tanks with insane amount of armor.

Ana nade nerfs sounds pretty good. We'll see how it works out.

That's what I mean, 2-2-2 was the state before 3 tanks, and that could also be referred to as "tank meta".

And actually like 80% of the games I play at high gold/low plat are still 2-2-2.

[Tojara]

I'm fine with the D'va changes because it's honestly stupid that in a meta where you see 3 tanks in every game (at least in high plat/low diamond) you actually never see Reaper. You use to see him more when Winston was a thing and there were 2 tanks typically, but because Winston isn't there and D'va exists in her current state, well good luck. She just runs right into him and because of how damage is calculated, she absolutely shreds him before he can shred her, which doesn't really make much sense.

100% agree however that it's funny that they are changing D'va but refuse to nerf Reinhardt which is essentially the holy grail of tanks, and has been since day 1.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that Reinhardt should be nerfed, because I'm not really sure what you could change about him to 'balance' him, aside from either looking at his auto damage or possibly change how long it takes for his shield to recharge. I think a smarter way to change Reinhardt would be to simply have more counters for him that actually work. Sombra reveal had people thinking that, but in reality Sombra getting close means Sombra gets killed and then it's a 6v5 (which when you have Sombra on your team it's basically 6v5 to begin with).

The tank meta as it exists is partially because of Ana, but other factors as well. One could argue that some of the flanking heroes might need small buffs, or some of the current tanks might need some downward adjustments as well. I'm for anything that varies the game a bit more, but realize that it might be that way at other levels of play. I've only played like 75 games of competitive at the level I listed above, and 80% of them follow 3-2-1. Basically Reinhardt/D'va/X (not Winston), Ana/X, then 76. Most of the variety in my games is
whether somebody picks Zarya/Roadhog for the other tank slot, or Mercy/Lucio for the other healer spot (although it's usually Lucio).

One might think that 76 is overpowered, but him being in every game is solely because most of other offensive characters are meant to flank or kill tanks, and you aren't really going to get that with how many tanks there are right now. Pharah is a monster, but her success is solely dependent on how good the Pharah is compared to the opposing teams 76 and to some extent Ana. If they can aim well Pharah is a pretty bad choice.

[Gandrake]

Nerfed the crap out of D.Va because she was buffed to almost be a requirement, but leave Reinhart untouched even though he's been absolutely required since the beginning of Season 1.

Okay.

probably because reinhardt isn't being played like reaper with a jetpack and if you play him too aggressively you will be punished

[Jessicka]

I'm fine with the D'va changes because it's honestly stupid that in a meta where you see 3 tanks in every game (at least in high plat/low diamond) you actually never see Reaper. You use to see him more when Winston was a thing and there were 2 tanks typically, but because Winston isn't there and D'va exists in her current state, well good luck. She just runs right into him and because of how damage is calculated, she absolutely shreds him before he can shred her, which doesn't really make much sense.

100% agree however that it's funny that they are changing D'va but refuse to nerf Reinhardt which is essentially the holy grail of tanks, and has been since day 1.

Keep in mind I'm not saying that Reinhardt should be nerfed, because I'm not really sure what you could change about him to 'balance' him, aside from either looking at his auto damage or possibly change how long it takes for his shield to recharge. I think a smarter way to change Reinhardt would be to simply have more counters for him that actually work. Sombra reveal had people thinking that, but in reality Sombra getting close means Sombra gets killed and then it's a 6v5 (which when you have Sombra on your team it's basically 6v5 to begin with).

The tank meta as it exists is partially because of Ana, but other factors as well. One could argue that some of the flanking heroes might need small buffs, or some of the current tanks might need some downward adjustments as well.

I don't think the answer to the tank meta is just to nerf the other tanks so only 2 remain viable.

Part of it is down to Reinhardt being Reinhardt's counter. I learned pretty early on that the team with the best Reinhardt usually wins. Even if they do make a new counter, that's several months down the line, then several months it seems before they're looked at for balancing properly; it could be 6-8 months away before its 'ready'. Even here though, all the other tanks have a solid downtime on their shielding; they have to pick their moments much more carefully between protecting and attacking. Reinhardt just doesn't have the protection downtime. He makes fights a lot less fluid as a result; which in spite of how much I play him, I find he gets pretty boring pretty fast.

As for introducing another Reinhardt counter; it could be 6-8 months down the line before they're in the game and properly balanced. It's not a quick fix. And, they then become mandatory. Just doesn't feel like the answer any more than introducing another tank that can do what Reinhardt does - because then you just end up with the 2 of them because they're not exclusive of each other.

[Kudos]

This

People just don't understand that "tank meta" is really because of Ana. Not because Rein, Dva or Zarya are broken.

Dva on current build is allready loosing 1v1 VS soldier or reaper. The armor nerf is way too much, welcome to your new Winston

Its because some of the 'tanks' do as much damage as the attack classes, combined with health + armour + Ana's healing. Zarya was already tweaked to make her energy ramp up slower. Dva needed a damage nerf. She's a flying brawler, more so than a tank.

[Deleted]

That's what I mean, 2-2-2 was the state before 3 tanks, and that could also be referred to as "tank meta".

And actually like 80% of the games I play at high gold/low plat are still 2-2-2.

Well, yea. At gold/plat people still play attack junkrats and symmetras so meta doesn't really even apply there.

[Deleted]

Its because some of the 'tanks' do as much damage as the attack classes, combined with health + armour + Ana's healing. Zarya was already tweaked to make her energy ramp up slower. Dva needed a damage nerf. She's a flying brawler, more so than a tank.

But it's a role not filled by anybody else.

And if she is to be a tank, rather than a flanker, why nerf her tanking ability too?

[Ealyssa]

She should lose 1v1 to Reaper, that's his JOB. Arguably Soldier too.

Yeah and by definition if a tank is easily killed by "tank killer" then it's not overpowered.

Damage reduction can be fine. But if current Dva is allready killed by everything that should kill her then armor nerf is over the top. It's simple 1+1 really.

The real problem is ana being way to good at healing, and especially healing tanks. The anti heal shee provide also push toward having more tanks just to survive the seconds without healing.

[Ilikegreenfire]

Tbh she really needed it. Even back pre matrix buff when people called her bad whenever i picked her I was a monster getting gold elims and dmg almost every game as a tank. Post matrix buff she was just stupidly strong. She was basically a better Winston and Reaper rolled into one champ. I love her but she needed the nerf

[Gandrake]

How do you not understand this? It is lag, you see the other player as being out of range when they in fact are in range.

I overlooked this. I was on her kill cam, over her head, at more than a 90 degree angle, getting roasted and I wasn't even on her screen.

It happens on my screen when I play Symmetra too. I am not around the corner and it is still firing even after the target has put LoS between us. It detatches briefly after about a second until I do get around the corner. It's not lag.

[Mormolyce]

Yeah and by definition if a tank is easily killed by "tank killer" then it's not overpowered.

Damage reduction can be fine. But if current Dva is allready killed by everything that should kill her then armor nerf is over the top. It's simple 1+1 really.

She's not though, Reaper was not a very good pick vs. D.Va. Post-patch, I dunno.