It's time to remove ARENA

[Caolela]

... They're not balancing around it, ...

That's incorrect. WoW PvP is balanced around 3s and the comps, at least that's what they've used as an excuse for the general imbalance of specs in PvP. I don't know this Horrigan guy but they balance around 3s since it's probably the easiest to "balance" for (if you can even call it that), not 2s, 5s, or 10-15 man in BGs. Certainly not 40m which is just a giant cluster fuck of lag and confusion and IMO is the worst version of PvP in WoW.

I'd be OK with it if PvP were just BGs and 10-15m groups, or 10m like RBGs, with several new BGs added. That seems to give the best representation of classes/specs, where you also have some strategy besides brainless ADD deathmatch in a box with pillar-humping. They should also limit the number of a given spec in an instance so you don't get 5 or 8 of the OP specs facerolling the other team.

[BananaHandsB]

The amount of argumentative fallacies in this post seem to indicate it was written by a child, but hey that's ad hominem so let's take a look. It's funny because there might be some good points to be made in this argument, the OP just made an incredibly elaborate post that seemed to ignore them and stick almost purely to the fallacies. The post ends up being a 'I DONT LIKE ARENA AND THIS IS WHY' rant, rather than "this is why I think arena needs to be removed from the game".

ARENA IS NOT TRUE PVP!

Begging the question and circular reasoning.

1.Blizzard admitted Arena was the GREATEST mistake 7 years ago.

Misquote. They said competitive esports in wow was the problem; arena was just the avenue they took. Never said anything was wrong about arena in wow without the competitive esport aspect.

2. Arena is more like MOBA and should not be in a MMORPG. It encourages ZERO social behavior. Why don't you play a true MOBA game (LOL, DOTA, HotS) instead of playing WoW Arena?

Faulty generalization. It's incredibly different than the MOBAs you listed.

3. It ruins the large BG/WPVP. PVE toolkit is always more suitable for BG/WPVP than Arena.

Ad consequentiam. Not to mention 0 explanation of what is really meant by this. Appeal to vagueness? (making that one up)

4. It ruins the balance of the game. Blizzard had to balance both raids and arenas and it never worked.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Also ad consequentiam.

5.https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...629457?page=15

Ad antiquitatem and Genetic Fallacy. Ignores the argument of "why this needs to be removed" and instead just laments the "good old days".

6. Very few people who did arena for fun. In TBC -> WoD people did arena because it was the easiest way to gear up.

Many in this one but anecdotal fallacy, (a ton of) ad populum, hasty generalization, appeal to spite, false authority, and riddled with little more than personal opinions of arena.

7. Arena is a minigame like mission table/ pet battle.

Faulty generalization and strawman.

8. The reason people complain about "PVP" is

Ad consequentiam, Texas sharpshooter fallacy, but largely ad populum.

I think Horrigan is right. He also explains exactly why people say "PVP is dead" every expansion.

Practically every fallacy in the book made it's way in this post. See #6. Again purely argues why he/she doesn't enjoy arena, but not why it needs to be removed.

10. Removing Arena is POSSIBLE because 5v5 has been removed.

Appeal to accomplishment, false analogy, false equivalence.


...and many more. It's been awhile since English 110.

[RobertMugabe]

And why does that mean that it should be removed? Just move focus out of it if no one is playing it.

THIS

While I generally do agree with OP, I think simply making it less important and investing more in BGs is a better idea, rather than removing.

I personally like sometimes doing arenas, though it doesn't make much sense for an MMORPG to focus on such content.

[Theed]

The delusion and ignorance of some players disgusts me.

Arena is in no reality a small minotity of players. In fact if arena didn't exist WoW the majority of competetive pvp players would have left years ago. It's not for everyone but i've played arena since season one and it has and will always be my favourite part of the game. It is by far the most competetive and exiting part of the game. Feel free to disagree, but stop spreading misinformation and STOP BEING SO IGNORANT. Thanks

[wombinator04]

It's time to remove THIS THREAD.

[Moozart]

Literally everyone I know play WoW for... Arena. If you don't like it, you're not freaking forced to play it. Jesus. We play Overwatch for pvp's sake, we play skirmish and rated for pvp's sake. Why? Because we love the fluidity and feel of WoW pvp.

No one cares about you and the other 3 people you know

[Resentless]

ARENA IS NOT TRUE PVP! Stop this meme.
.

Yes, while you're at it remove every other minority activity, including pet battles, mythic raiding and roleplaying servers. Thank you. We will all enjoy doing stuff that everyone else does like heroic dungeons, LFR and World Quests! SO exciting.

[Paulosio]

"It ruins the balance of the game. Blizzard had to balance both raids and arenas and it never worked."

Surely this is longer the case now there are PVP stat templates and seperate PVP talents ? Classes and specs are balanced seperately for PVP and PVE rather than trying to balance for both at the same time.

[Tack980]

I say don't bother removing arena, it will just piss off those who enjoy it ( and they shouldnt remove 5v5 either to be fair). Rather get more pvp ideas to add flavor to the game ( why i'm so looking forward to brawls in 7.2)

[Resentless]

The amount of argumentative fallacies in this post seem to indicate it was written by a child, but hey that's ad hominem so let's take a look. It's funny because there might be some good points to be made in this argument, the OP just made an incredibly elaborate post that seemed to ignore them and stick almost purely to the fallacies. The post ends up being a 'I DONT LIKE ARENA AND THIS IS WHY' rant, rather than "this is why I think arena needs to be removed from the game".


Begging the question and circular reasoning.


Misquote. They said competitive esports in wow was the problem; arena was just the avenue they took. Never said anything was wrong about arena in wow without the competitive esport aspect.


Faulty generalization. It's incredibly different than the MOBAs you listed.


Ad consequentiam. Not to mention 0 explanation of what is really meant by this. Appeal to vagueness? (making that one up)


Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Also ad consequentiam.


Ad antiquitatem and Genetic Fallacy. Ignores the argument of "why this needs to be removed" and instead just laments the "good old days".


Many in this one but anecdotal fallacy, (a ton of) ad populum, hasty generalization, appeal to spite, false authority, and riddled with little more than personal opinions of arena.


Faulty generalization and strawman.


Ad consequentiam, Texas sharpshooter fallacy, but largely ad populum.


Practically every fallacy in the book made it's way in this post. See #6. Again purely argues why he/she doesn't enjoy arena, but not why it needs to be removed.


Appeal to accomplishment, false analogy, false equivalence.


...and many more. It's been awhile since English 110.

Haha this, completely dismantled. Try again OP.

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No one cares about you and the other 3 people you know

Same goes to you buddy, I play in a guild of 250 people who only do PVP, specifically arena. Get out with your non-argument.

[FarmI3oy]

Stopped reading OP as soon as I seen Horrigan quotes. That scum just trolls every thread he posts in.

[Shaqthefat]

Sounds like someone had a bad arena season

[monkmastaeq]

Op is 1400 with 300 games played. is bad at every aspect of the game and always will be, chances are doesn't even really play anymore.

"arena is dead" yeah the sky falls every xpac insert area for "wow is dead" , its not

Would people raid if they took out all the rewards? ( a select minority) Would people do dailies if they took out all the rewards? would they rep grind? HMMMMMM

Stop propagating nonsense

[Kazgrel]

Oh hey, it's about time we had another "remove arena" thread.

1. Quote taken out of context. Their disdain is more towards the aspect of having driven arena as an "esport", given it's very difficult to watch as a spectator unless you're well versed in WoW and the abilities of it's classes.

2. Arena debuted in WoW back when DOTA was still based off a WC3 mod.

3. Arena's presence did nothing to battlegrounds, other than rendering them a secondary way to obtain pvp gear (with arena being the primary and best way).

4. PVE/PVP balance has been an issue of contention since the day WoW came out (and given Blizz's track record, it will always be, lol).

5. I loved larged scale pvp in WoW, and wish they did more for it; however, there's other factors involved with why that would never work (namely server population imbalance, but maybe with CRZ tech that could be remedied)

6. It was only the way to "welfare epics" during TBC. After that, any time where you showed up to raid in full pvp gear would get you laughed right out of the raid.

7. Everything's a minigame within the game world if you put it that way.

8. Rewards from pvp have either been cosmetic (mounts, tabards) or only really worked to power players in pvp (pvp gear).

9. I don't see a #9

10. 5v5 was pretty much never popular after Wrath simply due to the clusterfuck nature it became with that many people in a small environment. Not to mention it was far more a PITA to get a team for. Saying the least popular bracket is an indication that arena isn't popular is silly.

Signed,

Someone who despised arena and much preferred BGs, but doesn't see the point in removing arena at all.

[Irian]

I would agree more with just sliding the focus away from arenas and toward other styles of PvP gameplay. Leave them in if people want to do them still, I don't think taking away an aspect of the game that people like is something that should ever happen.

I do really hate arena, though. It has never felt like it belonged in an MMORPG setting and has pushed game balance in frustrating and dull directions for its own sake. It's antisocial, repetitive and not even really all that compelling and seems to only exist to appeal to an extremely minor subset of the playerbase at this point.

[Sativ]

Posting in this thread because Horrigan was the biggest Meme on Bleeding Hollow.

[Moozart]

Haha this, completely dismantled. Try again OP.

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Same goes to you buddy, I play in a guild of 250 people who only do PVP, specifically arena. Get out with your non-argument.

So many bads in 1 place together playing content that does not matter =/

[Resentless]

So many bads in 1 place together playing content that does not matter =/

Bads? Hahaha yeah ok whip your dick out more mr 1400 rating normal mode raider.

[Deleted]

Well... i do think large scale PvP makes more sense in an mmo rather than arenas. Arenas could actually be incorporated in the real world much like the brawlers guild for similar results. I do think that would be a cooler implementation. Actually having arenas outside orgrimmar and Stormwind would make sense aswell.

Anyways, im sure theres alot of people that will QQ about it, and i don't feel strongly enough about this to care.

[Deleted]

dw fam, Holinka got your back.